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Objective fact differs from a subjective fact

I explained the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact. QuackGuru (talk) 03:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did you attribute it to yourself? Unomi (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in the edit history the edit is attributed to QuackGuru. QuackGuru (talk) 04:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that your statement qualifies as ASF tbh, it reads like a tautology. I think you should self-revert and perhaps stir up some discussion on a proper wording. Just to be clear, any opinion can be asserted as fact, that doesn't make the asserted opinion true or justified. Unomi (talk) 04:56, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."

This is already part of policy. You wrote "any opinion" can be asserted as fact. This is not the intent of ASF. Any opinion cannot be asserted as fact. I was clarifiying the difference between an objective opinion and a subjective opinion. The sentence summarises ASF policy. In some cases we assert the text and in other case we attribute it to the source such as so and so said. QuackGuru (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact. A subjective fact is an opinion that is possibly attributed.

I propose we include this in Wikipedia's WP:ASF policy. Some editors are confused that "any opinion" can be asserted as fact. It is an opinion when the Beatles are the greatest band. But what type of an opinion is it. It is a subjective opinion. Clarifying the intent of ASF by explaining that there is a difference between an objective opinion and a subjective opinion will clear up any misunderstanding editors are having with ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 17:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, could you give examples of what you mean by objective facts and subjective facts as they might be used in an article? I am quite honestly confused by the language, is there a different between a subjective fact and an opinion as it relates to what might reasonably be thought introduced to an article? Unomi (talk) 18:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. These are objective facts. I previously gave an example of a subjective fact. ASF policy explains the example. If you are still confused this shows there is a need to clarify policy. QuackGuru (talk) 19:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If by subjective fact you refer to the Beatles are the greatest band then this is what I understand to be opinion, if subjective fact is indistinguishable from opinion then I see no reason to introduce the (somewhat confusing) term and even less for the idea that it should possibly be attributed, opinions should always be attributed, and to my peculiar way of thinking so should facts. Unomi (talk) 04:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Wikipedia search shows two different definitions of subjective fact, neither terribly definitive anyway. Let's not confuse things. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems extremely confusing. Policy should be simple to understand. DigitalC (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it is confusing. I used wikilinks to specific articles to make it simple to understand. QuackGuru (talk) 07:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An objective fact differs from a subjective fact

An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said).

Any opinion is not an opinion according to ASF. There is a difference between a subjective fact versus an objective fact but ASF is too vague in explaining or clarifying the difference. When a person reads WP:ASF policy it should be distinguishable what is the difference between an objective opinion compared to a subjective opinion. It is somewhat confusing when it is confusing and vague the intent of ASF. Let's not continue to confuse things with a policy that does not clearly explain the difference between a subjective fact versus an objective fact. QuackGuru (talk) 07:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This version is MUCH more confusing as what is currently in the policy. DigitalC (talk) 16:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not currently explains in policy. You have not explained how it is confusing or made a specific proposal to improve it. DigitalC thinks it is more confusing than the current version. That means DigitalC still thinks the current version is confusing but the proposal which clears up the confusion is more confusing. How could a proposal that explains the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact be confusing? There is nothing confusing about it. The current version does not explain what is the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact. QuackGuru (talk) 16:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, both versions have significant issue. the 'simple formulation' is perhaps a bit over-simple. what we mean to point out (as I see it) is something like this:

it's OK to assert simple, uncontested common knowledge (e.g. 'Mars is a planet' or 'Plato was a philosopher') as is.
it's OK to assert verifiable statements (e.g. "Linus Pauling advocated the use of Vitamin C as a panacea' or 'Newtonian physics treats gravity as a force'), with proper attribution.
it's OK to assert verifiable opinions (e.g. 'Einstein said "God does not play dice with the universe" in opposition to quantum mechanics' or 'Fox News believes the health care plan is detrimental to society')
it is not OK to to state opinions as wikipedia editors (e.g. Einstein or Fox News are right/wrong in the above).

Perhaps the way to rephrase it (trying to keep to the 'simple' notion') is to say something like: "Assert what you can attribute, be it fact, opinion, or common knowledge; do not give opinions about what you assert." Not perfect, but it has advantages. --Ludwigs2 17:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We don't attribute facts they way that we attribute opinions though. For instance, we don't need to say "World Encyclopedia says that Linus Pauling advocated the use of Vitamin C as a panacea" we do need to attribute opinions, which is why we say "Fox News believes..." etc. DigitalC (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are mispresenting my comments again - please stop. I never said the current version was confusing. I believe the current version is MUCH better than what you have proposed, because what you have proposed makes it more confusing. It is supposed to be "A simple formulation", and getting into "objective fact" vs. "subjective fact" is not simple, nor is it needed. DigitalC (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal. "An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said). In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." I propose we include both of these sentences. QuackGuru (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Although Ludwigs2 understands the current ASF is oversimplified I disagree with Ludwigs2 that we need to rephrase the current text. To avoid the continued confusion we need to expand on the current meaning of ASF policy but not change or rephrase it. Rephrasing the current policy will change the meaning and damage the meaning. I want to stick the the current meaning and expand on its meaning the intent of ASF. I think including both sentences will clear up any confusion editors are having. ASF policy needs to be clear when we should attribute or not attribute facts or opinions and what is the difference between a fact or an opinion. My proposal will fix these issues. QuackGuru (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I may, nearly the entire book I recommended before, Philosophy of scientific method, deals with subjective vs objective fact. It is extremely confusing and complicated to get into, especially on a policy page. To make this as simple as possible I, personally, would say that facts are attributes. Opinions, on the other hand, are principles, ideas, beliefs or conclusions, which may be subject to dispute.

Attributes of a liquid would be fluidity, surface tension, and incompressibility. Pascal's law would qualify as an attribute. An opinion, on the other hand, would be Frenkel's theory. Here is another definition from Reading and writing nonfiction genres By Kathleen Buss, Lee Karnowski

Fact versus opinion

News might be defined as new, timely information about an event or person in which readers are interested. A fact is information that can be verified or documented. It is known to be true. On the other hand, opinions are personal beliefs, views, or judgements. An opinion also could be defined as what the person feels. A feeling does not make a fact no matter how many people agree with the feeling. Opinions are used in editorials and advice columns. News articles always use factual information, not opinions.

To have students better understand the difference, have them look through the newspaper for examples of facts and opinions and share them with the class. The following are examples that may be discussed.

Sports can be enjoyed as recreation. (Fact)

Most people love baseball. (Opinion)

The most exciting sport to watch is tennis. (Opinion)

I hope that helps. Zaereth (talk) 18:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Zaereth, this is complicated - much more complicated than policy should be. This is a policy page, not an article, and I really don't think we need to be getting into subjective vs. objective fact here. DigitalC (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Restore ASF lead

Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things, so we assert as many of them as possible.

I propose the lead to ASF should be restored. ASF was rewritten and is still confusing. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#A simple formulation. QuackGuru (talk) 07:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the ASF lead, added a sentence explaining the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact, and kept one of the newly added sentences added to the lead of ASF. See this edit. QuackGuru (talk) 19:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This edit changed the ASF without any agreement. QuackGuru (talk) 19:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning of ASF policy was drastically changed. This edit does not exactly match the edit summary. Another editor made major changes to the lead without gaining consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal stood on the talk page for ~ 1 week with no one in opposition and several supporting it. Unomi (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal to restore the lead stood for a long time without any opposition. I restored the consensus version to lead to ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 17:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The editor alleged this is a core policy; pls gain talk page consensus for changes. The editor did not gain any consensus and did not discuss the edit here. Can anyone point where on this talk page there was consensus for this edit that another editor edit warred into ASF policy without discussion or consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 19:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No specific objection was made to restoring to the broad consensus version and no editor was able to point to talk page consensus for this edit repeated in edit war again here. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your recommendation. First, your definition of objective and subjective fact is incorrect. Please see the sources I recommended above. Encyclopedias deal in journalistic writing, not scientific (OR/SYN) type writing. Second, I am of the firm opinion that simpler is better. Every book on writing that I've read seems to agree with me. Third, the idea that "Plato is a philosopher" or "Mars is a planet" is obvious and does not need to be referenced is ridiculous. Not everyone knows who Plato is, or where to find Mars. This information not only should be referenced, but can be with incredible ease. Not doing so is mere laziness. However, information that is obvious, such as "water is wet," does not need a reference. This can be verified by anyone and therefore will not be found in reliable sources. Wikipedia should be no different. But, that's just my opinion. Zaereth (talk) 21:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the issue here. Take it to another section where a proposal was made for objective and subjective fact. This section is about changing ASF without talk page consensus here. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely concur. Unomi (talk) 23:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Something that needs to be said: The fact that "Mars is a planet" needs to be Verifiable... it does not necessarily need to be verified. It is this distinction that allows the sentence "Mars is a planet" in an article to remain unreferenced. Blueboar (talk) 00:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but is that endangered by this edit?. Unomi (talk) 18:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors are commenting about the wrong issue here. This might confuse other editors. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ASF lead changes without discussion or consensus

The editor alleged this is a core policy; pls gain talk page consensus for changes. The editor did not gain any consensus and did not discuss the edit here. Can anyone point where on this talk page there was consensus for this edit that another editor edit warred into ASF policy without discussion or consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on the changes made to ASF without any consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those were good changes, the specific case of a survey sounds weird and presumably was precipitated by a specific content dispute, no one seriously disputes is subjective and unclear. Unomi (talk) 06:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have not been able to explain why the changes were good. I strongly disagree with the changes which were made without consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 17:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crum375 seems to have changed policy without consensus. Rather inappropriate, in my opinion. BigK HeX (talk) 07:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen all the versions recently, so can't comment on which is the original and best version. Both versions have merits, but I prefer the longer because it covers two eventualities:

It says not to put millions of unnecessary citations for undisputed facts, which is worth saying
I don't quite like the fact=verifiable idea, since almost any opinion will have supporting references - it doesn't make it a fact.

Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said). In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." Stephen B Streater, I made a proposal in the above thread to include these two sentences that you and other editors could have missed. This will make it more clear the intent of ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, regardless of which is the oldest, I also prefer the version we have on top at the moment (i.e. the slightly longer one). Although it could still be vastly improved (in fact this whole page could - do we really need all this waffle just to tell people to be neutral?)--Kotniski (talk) 07:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should keep the current lead of ASF and not rewrite it. It can be improved by adding two sentences I proposed above. QuackGuru (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Adding those two sentences would not be an improvement. Remember, this is supposed to be SIMPLE. The idea of a subjective fact vs. an objective fact is not simple. If it were simple, you wouldn't have needed wikilinks. We want people to understand policy on first read - not go, "what the heck does that mean?" and not understand the policy. Furthermore, a subjective fact can be asserted as fact - "Hitler was evil". This is a subjective fact, but still easy to assert as a fact. An objective fact can also be attributed - "World Encyclopedia says that Mars is a Planet". So putting this information in here doesn't HELP the policy. DigitalC (talk) 21:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People should be aware that there might be a few editors who are against the broad consensus version and long standing meaning of ASF policy and want to rewrite (or possibly destroy) policy. QuackGuru (talk) 17:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd strongly recommend researching this matter.

Ok, to break this down, I'll start with the sentence currently in the article. "By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This makes no sense. The words are assembled in a correct sentence, but together they offer no meaning. "Hitler is evil." is an opinion, but few people will dispute this. As stated in the source I referenced above, "A feeling does not make a fact no matter how many people agree with the feeling." (Examples of opinions not seriously disputed: The sun is good. Trees are nice. The first mirrors used by people were most likely pools of dark, still water, or water collected in a primitive vessel of some sort.) Just because an opinion is not "seriously disputed," that still does not make it a fact.

Now I'll examine the sentence which Carol added. "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified." This actually does make sense. Actually, it is the very definition of fact as found in the same source I cited above: "A fact is information that can be verified or documented." I prefer this sentence because it actually has meaning.

I do agree that too many references can be annoying. At the same time though, I'd rather see too many than none at all. In example, if writing an article about Mars, nearly every source will start out by telling me that Mars is a planet. There should be no problem sourcing this info. However, it's not necessary to add a cite to every line. If all of the info in a paragraph came from a single source, then I'd simply put one at the end of the paragraph. I would strongly recommend adding at least one source per paragraph. Zaereth (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The sun is good. Trees are nice. Wikipedians are expert editors. These are examples of a subjective opinion. If we included an explanation of the difference between a subjective statement versus an objective statement it would clear up the confusion you are having. See here: "An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said). QuackGuru (talk) 19:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is also the way we normally edit, apart from truly controversial information, we tend to not need to cite information which is attached to a blue link(as long as the target article supports it).

ASF, as I understand it, deals with situations where one does not need to offer a RS in order to justify having the text in an article. ~~It does not cover opinion, never has,~~ it covers only that which is trivially verifiable to be the consensus opinion of RS. In that context the text in the current version is plain wrong viz. that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact, this is in no way covered by ASF as an RS would have to be given for the existence of such a survey and its results. To me it starts to look like a sizable bit of ASF actually belongs in WP:V. Unomi (talk) 18:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I reject rewriting the lead to ASF including "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified.". Anything that can be verified is not considered a fact according to ASF. When there is a serious dispute (among reliable sources) it is an opinion according to ASF. When it is an opinion we attribute the opinion to the source. However, we can include a new sentence about verifiability. QuackGuru (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with QuackGuru's sentiment here -- for the most part. It seems there are an endless number of exceptions to any of the rules discussed here. BigK HeX (talk) 20:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My view is completely the opposite. According to what QuackGuru has said above, an opinion is a fact if there is no dispute in reliable sources. So, if one source says "Hitler is evil", and there are no reliable sources that dispute this, then it doesn't get attributed. This is a problem because even without any sources disputing the "fact", it is obvious that it is an opinion. DigitalC (talk) 00:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some diffs showing the QuackGuru indeed believes that unless there is dispute among reliable sources, an opinion does not need to be attributed - [1], [2], [3]. DigitalC (talk) 02:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." If editors want to include information about which can be verified we can include this sentence. QuackGuru (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided a reliable source for Carol's definition. I am simply challenging you to come up with a source for the one you support. The definition we have makes Wikipedia itself look ridiculous, as if the people making the policy pages of an encyclopedia have never even seen a dictionary, let alone an encyclopedia. This leads me to the question, why should I even bother?

There's a domino effect that happens when we start changing the meaning of words to fit our own opinions. Suddenly, they don't fit with the meanings of other words, so we must alter them as well. Now, why would those of us who focus on quality want to stay in an environment where the policies are just a menagerie of made-up terms? Zaereth (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Using a source for Carol's definition on how to write Wikipedia policy is not required as a way to completely change Wikipedia policy. My sources are the blue links to objective fact, subjective fact, and reliable source which are part of my proposal to expand ASF while keeping intact the original meaning and intent of ASF. Instead of improving ASF policy, a few editors want to change the entire meaning of ASF which would render it useless. QuackGuru (talk) 20:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it in no way renders it useless, it simply makes what we mean by it more precise and less open to gaming. The wording you prefer, imo, is much too vulnerable to No true Scotsman and other logical fallacies. The intent of ASF, I believe, was exactly to cover very basic, very limited scope scenarios. Unomi (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it would render it useless if editors changed the entire meaning of ASF.

For example, if we changed the lead to add "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified." it would change the entire meaning of ASF. A fact is not a piece of information which can be verified. Opinions can be verified too. It make no sense to add "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified" because a piece of information that is verified does not make it a fact. There is a difference between a subjective statement versus an objective statement. QuackGuru (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How can you verify an opinion? For example, following the example "Hitler is evil", how would you verify that opinion? DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No specific response was made to the above comments. I assume this got lost with all the other comments or editors agree with me. QuackGuru (talk) 01:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or it could be that it has only been a few hours. DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Back to QuackGuru's line: "In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." This works for me - in WP:V. It tells editors what to do. I don't think we should try and define fact. I'm also in favour of a much shorter policy and less waffle (as mentioned above). Something along the lines of:

Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. I'd replace the entire section with this, tagged onto the Bias paragraph above. If people can't understand a short policy, they're definitely going to get lost in a long one. Less is more. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Less is more confusing. I'm not in favor of replacing the entire section with a shorter version. I'm in favor of keeping the lead paragraph the way it is but include the sentence Stephen B Streater articulated above starting with "In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones". QuackGuru (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lets back up for a second and consider why ASF is in NPOV in the first place. Unomi (talk) 21:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give a couple of examples why ASF is here. To prevent editors from adding in-text simon says so-and-so attribution to every sourced objective fact and to prevent editors from removing in-text simon says attribution when there is a serious dispute. QuackGuru (talk) 21:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All good stuff. But why is ASF here. Verifiability is not the same as NPOV. I would just direct people to WP:V for that information. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or we could rename it ALF - it's slightly lost its purpose as its now one of the longest sections. It's another example of trying to created mappers out of packers by reams of instructions. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ASF is not about verifiability, which is why it is here. To maintain a NPOV, we don't take sides in disputes, and we don't endorse opinions as facts. DigitalC (talk) 22:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In science Dr. Asimov says that if you charge an electroscope, the leaves will separate, because they repel each other. I suggest that in this statement that they separate is an observable fact, but that they repel each other is an opinion. That's the trouble with scientific information. It's partly about disagreements about facts.WFPM (talk) 22:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

DigitalC seems to disagree with including information about verifiability for this policy. Am I correct? QuackGuru (talk) 01:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are not correct. In fact, I think wikilinking to WP:V is probably good. However while WP:ASF is related to verifiability, it is not ABOUT verifiability. DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To everybody, if you leave a response somewhere in the middle, chances are that I'm not going to go back and hunt for it. I disagree with the notion that that policies are independent. A flaw in one policy affects the integrity of the entire structure. It is my personal feeling that all of wikipolicy should be summed up as a whole, to clear-up how everything interconnects.

To QuackGuru, though, I do not use Wikipedia as a reliable source for anything I present. Do you have anything else? I have provided a reliable source for objective and subjective fact. An objective fact is based on physical attributes. A subjective fact is based upon feelings (sensory input). However, "the eyes can decieve us" argument is not a part of journalistic writing. We trust in what the reliable sources say.

That is not to say that our own judgement as a wrtier/editor is not of value. If source "A" says Columbus sailed in 1496, yet every other source says 1492, we should assume an error. If, however, two sources totally disagree on facts, and neither can be backed-up by a third, then both should be presented as possibilities. In example, if source "A" says Louis Quenault was the first person to shoot down an airplane from another aircraft, but source "B" says it was Poncho Villa, I'm going to look for the facts. In this case, the question of when should be settled by the dates. If both happen to say October 5, 1914, then it's time for the so called simon-says attributions. For this, I would definitely use text instead of citations to explain it. (ie: According to source A it was Quenault,[1] while source B says it was Villa in October 1914.[2]) Except in a case of simple human error, most sources will agree about the properties (objective fact) even if their perception of those properties varies (subjective fact).

Opinions are based on conclusions (judgements), values (principles) and feelings (emotional response). They are not a part of either type of fact. However, even opinions have facts, as in, who said it? What is it? Etc...Zaereth (talk) 23:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an explanation about what is subjective versus what is objective. But that is not the point I am trying to make. I want to explain when we can assert facts and when we can attribute opinions. I want to keep intact the intent of ASF while giving some direction for editors.

"An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said)."

Zaereth, how would you improve the proposal above. So far no editor has made any suggestions to improve it. I assume it is ready to go into ASF and we can start a RFC for other editors to weight in on the discussion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll weigh in that a lack of suggestions might not really be an indicator that there is agreement. Personally, I'm fairly ambivalent to the proposed wording, though I don't think the proposal is significantly more clear than the current (old consensus) version. BigK HeX (talk) 02:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will repeat my comments above that QuackGuru seems to be ignoring, since he states that he assumes it is ready to go into ASF. This explanation does not improve the policy, and doesn't belong in the policy. The policy is not an article. The explanation about what is subjective versus what is objective is not simple, and does not make the policy more clear. DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are not explaining your reasons. You are only disagreeing with me without any justification for over a year straight now all over Wikipedia. I am not trying to explain what is subjective versus what is objective. I am trying to include information that tells editors when to atribute text and when it is not necessary to attribute text. For example, if it is a subjective statement we attribute it to so-and-so said. When it is an objective statement we don't need to say so-and-so said. I explained why this proposal will impriove ASF by telling the reader when to use attribution and when not to use attribution. My proposal does make it simple to understand ASF policy. QuackGuru (talk) 03:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An improvement would be to use the terms opinion, and fact. These are terms that are clear to everyone, unlike subjective fact and objective fact. DigitalC (talk) 03:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What may be helpful is to list more examples of facts which it is acceptable to simply assert, versus more contestable assertions which may be treated similarly to commentary/opinions. BigK HeX (talk) 03:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is a good idea. I'm sure Zaereth knows what is treated as opinions versus facts. But we still need to explain to editors when it is a fact in-text attribution is not required and when it is an opinion in-text attribtuion is encouraged. QuackGuru (talk) 17:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm opposed to bringing in new unfamiliar terms, such as objective fact and subjective fact. We don't need to use these actual terms if we are going to define them and then use them only once. I am in favour of using examples of the various cases:

A fact which doesn't need verification
A fact which does need verification
An opinion which needs to be balanced

The simplest of openings followed by couple of examples of each, with the above structure, would make the whole section much shorter and clearer to me. Stephen B Streater (talk) 06:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I briefly put up an example here for comparison, which is half as long as the established version. I ask the assembled editors to review the policy page as a whole. Consider how long it would take to read it all, and how many of our 1 million editors will actually do this. It is just far too long, and I think this is a serious issue. In software, we would call it bloatware. Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, definitely, and I mainly agree with your attempt to make it shorter. However I don't agree with the distinction between a fact that "needs verification" (like Mandela's birthdate) and one that doesn't ("Mars is a planet"). If there is a distinction to be made here, it's not within the scope of this page - since we insist on having separate pages for V, NOR and NPOV (I think they should all be combined, but anyway) we should keep things which are specifically V off the page for NPOV.--Kotniski (talk) 09:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with destroying ASF policy. There is not a problem with the intro to ASF.

A fact which doesn't need verification This is not about ASF.

A fact which does need verification This is not about ASF.

An opinion which needs to be balanced This is not about ASF.

Values or opinions which are subject to serious dispute need balance for NPOV. Balance is about WP:WEIGHT not specifically about ASF.

By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute. This sentence is very well written and currently in the article.

Let me explain why it is a well written sentence. When there is no serious dispute among reliable sources and it is a fact we don't need to add in-text attribution. In-text attribution is about so-and-so said. In-text attribution has nothing to do with WP:V.

Stephen B Streater, ASF is about when to use in-text attribtuion versus no in-text attribution. When text needs verification is not what ASF policy is about. QuackGuru (talk) 17:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me. I misinterpreted the heading ASF. Perhaps a more meaningful one could be put in, such as When to use in text attribution. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But there is also times when we should not use in-text attribtuion (so-and-so said) too. I don't understand the proposals to rewrite a very well written policy. My proposals are not to change the policy. My proposals are to expand the current policy while keeping intact the original meaning. QuackGuru (talk) 19:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give an example of "when we should not use in-text attribution"? I see no problem of giving attribution to a fact, if the editor so desires. Perhaps you could explain why it is a problem? DigitalC (talk) 00:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A fact versus an opinion

Proposal for ASF. "A fact can be asserted without simon-says inline-text phrasing. An opinion can be attributed to so-and-so said."

After reading comments from other editors I think this simplified version will work. We can also include more examples of facts (objective statements) and more examples of opinions (subjective statements). QuackGuru (talk) 18:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This newer rewritten proposal was discussed here on the talk page without a specific objection. So I'll go ahead and add it to ASF. I made the change. QuackGuru (talk) 01:07, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for ASF. "A fact is an objective statement. An opinion is a subjective statement."

For the examples we can include sentences explaining what is a fact and what is an opinion and give the examples. QuackGuru (talk) 18:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is sort of right, though sometimes apparently objective statements need attribution too (if sources are divided, or if the sources we have are of limited reliability or neutrality).--Kotniski (talk) 18:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now we're getting to something that is simple enough to be clear. PS You've convinced me about the purpose of ASF, so I'm going to change the heading to something more meaningful. Feel free to revert if I've missed something. WP:ASF is also a meaningless abbreviation, but we can address this as a separate point. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK - forget that. The section as written is not just about in text attribution. It's about achieving neutrality. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:33, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that this is better, I still think it's a slippery slope to merely describe an opinion as subjective and a fact as objective. What most books on journalistic writing do is describe the difference clearly so that writers and editors will know how to present information in an unbiased manner. Since QuackGuru asked, the following is more along the lines of the wording which I'd aim for:

Use facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information which is verifiable." Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article. Facts can be verified in a reliable source, and double checked using multiple sources.

Examples of facts:
Stealing is a crime in most countries.

The Beatles were a British rock band.

The United States is the only country to have used a nuclear weapon in wartime.

Gravity causes things to fall.

Facts are inherently neutral. Facts only need to be attributed to their sources using in-line citations. For undisputed facts, a citation at the end of the paragraph is sufficient, but for disputed facts, one to three concurring sources should be used.

By value or opinion,[1] on the other hand, we mean "a belief, principle, idea or conclusion, which may be subject to dispute." Opinions are judgments made by individuals which may or may not be based on fact, covering the “why” of the article. Opinions can be theories, hypotheses, conjecture, or ideals.

Examples of opinions
Stealing is bad. (Belief)

The Beatles were the greatest band in history. (Conclusion)

Using atomic bombs is wrong. (Principle)

Gravity is caused by curvature in spacetime. (Idea)

While an opinion is not factual and cannot be verified, we can verify the facts surrounding the opinion. We attribute the opinion to its origin, describing who has this opinion. We can describe what the opinion is, where it came from, and when.

For instance, rather than asserting that "The Beatles were the greatest band ever", locate a source such as Rolling Stone magazine and say: "Rolling Stone editor Matt Taibbi said that the Beatles were the greatest band ever", and include a reference to the issue in which that statement was made. Likewise, the statement "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band ever" can be made if it can be supported by references to a particular survey; a claim such as "The Beatles had many songs that made the UK Singles Chart" can also be made, because it is verifiable as fact. The first statement asserts a personal opinion; the second asserts the fact that an opinion exists and attributes it to reliable sources.

Opinions are inherently biased. Often, there are opposing opinions. In attributing competing views, it is necessary to ensure that the attribution adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity….

Not perfect, I know, but I haven't taken my usual time in crafting the writing. I'll just throw that out here for everone to examine. Have a good weekend everybody. Zaereth (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I'll digest that and give feedback later. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Use facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information which is verifiable."~~ Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article. ~~Facts can be verified in a reliable source, and double checked using multiple sources.~~

I reject rewriting the lead to ASF including the part about "By "fact" we mean "a piece of information which is verifiable". Anything that can be verified is not considered a fact according to ASF. When there is a serious dispute (among reliable sources) it is an opinion according to ASF. When it is an opinion we attribute the opinion to the source.

The examples of facts and the examples of opinions are useful for ASF. I don't see a need to rewrite ASF policy but adding a few more examples could be helpful. QuackGuru (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article."

This seems to be a dangerous statement to use, especially with regards to "how," which is often a contentious discussion for a variety of topics -- to use the examples from above, "how" gravity causes things to fall is labeled as an "idea" above. BigK HeX (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Zaereth's suggestion above seems pretty simple to understand; however, it also seems to change (possibly even eliminate) the long-standing policies in the ASF section. If we're going to eliminate one of the purposes of WP:ASF, then I'd think it'd be worthy to have a discussion [probably an RfC] specifically on that topic first. Of course.. this is all irrelevant if there has already been an RfC on the ASF policy, and I simply missed it. BigK HeX (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I think this is getting very confused. There are 2 different types of distinctions here:~~
Questions
questions of a factual nature

questions about values

questions of interpretation

very likely others

Answers
(nearly) all reliable sources agree

there is serious disgreement among RSs
~~Peter jackson (talk) 10:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
Actually, BigK, the question is not how but why. The answer to how gravity works would be "unknown." No theory, as far as I know, offers a mechanism for gravity. Also, it's a fallacy to think that, because something has always been done a certain way, there must be nothing better.
To, Peter, all inquisitive questions can be boiled down to these seven: What, where, when, who, how, why, and does/do. We can not always answer every question, but for the ones we can, they should be answered in the order of importance, as I've listed them. The first five ask for facts. The answer to these will either be right or wrong. The last two ask for opinion. When examining any information, it is important to ask ourselves what question is being answered.
~~Here is an example:~~

A deadly collision, between a minivan and a tractor-trailer, occured at mile 47 of the Glenn Highway, at 2:30 P.M. today. The semi, driven by 25 year old Joe Blow, crashed into the minivan, driven by 36 year old Bob Cobb. Blow was traveling southbound when he lost control on the ice, crossing the center divider. The two vehicles collided head-on, killing Cobb instantly. Witnesses state that the semi-truck was traveling too fast for conditions. The police report that alcohol does not appear to have been a factor.

The first sentence answers what, where and when. The second answers who. The third and fourth sentences answer how. The fifth sentence answers why, while the last question covers do/does. These last two are opinions, and are therefore attributed to their sources. As I've said, all of this information about writing is readily available to anyone who cares to look. Zaereth (talk) 17:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two points I'd like to make with Zaereth. First is that, yes, there are examples of explaining "how" something happens which are not contentious, however, as mentioned above, this is not always the case; above I provided a counter-example which seems pretty sufficient for making that point. When discussing "how" in relation to "how things work," the answer is going to be theoretical, though some theories are far less contentious than others.

As for any "that's how things have been" fallacy -- I've stated no such advocacy here. I stated my opinion that *if* such a substantial change in the policy is being contemplated, an RfC should be conducted. BigK HeX (talk) 23:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'd have to disagree with that. I edit mainly technical articles, where how is the primary concern. When taliking about causality, we're discussing the reason for something; the why. When discussing the manner in which something occurs, we're talking about process: the how. The example I gave above does not describe how things fall. (No process is described.) The closest we could get is, from up to down, accelerating at a rate of 9m per second squared if on Earth. That describes how things fall. Curvature in spacetime describes the reason for gravity, or why it exists. The theory does nothing to describe how it operates.
It's perfectly valid for you to do so, but creating such a distinction between "how" and "why" is largely a personal decision, since common parlance allows uses of "how" without such a clear distinction. A testament to that is the fact that I can ask the question, "How does gravity work, according to Einstein?" and expect for any general English-speaking audience to understand that I am asking for an elaboration of a theory. So, I would still be leery of possible misunderstanding that the proposal above might generate if it asserts that, "Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article." BigK HeX (talk) 00:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize if I have misread you. Personally, I have no intention of making any changes to policy myself. The changes I recommended above are merely more along the lines of what reliable sources say on the matter. I'd be happy if an RFC is conducted. I'll be ecstatic if just one person looks into the sources I've provided. Zaereth (talk) 00:05, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you make a valid point. I wasn't very happy with the language either. I was just thowing that out there in a rather hasty manner, per QuackGuru's request. It could definitely use clarification. For instance, some of the confusion you're experiencing appears to be from looking at the wrong definition. If you'll notice, I'm using the terms as nouns. If you look for those defs in your online dictionary, perhaps that would help clear it up. Zaereth (talk) 00:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following line is from above, by WFPM. "In science Dr. Asimov says that if you charge an electroscope, the leaves will separate, because they repel each other. I suggest that in this statement that they separate is an observable fact, but that they repel each other is an opinion. That's the trouble with scientific information. It's partly about disagreements about facts.WFPM (talk) 22:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)"
I've been waiting for someone to touch upon this aspect of opinions, for to me it seems to be the very core of what QuackGuru is trying to point out. Not all opinions are seriously disputed. Very few people will disagree that magnetism accompanies electricity. This is almost accepted as fact, even though there is no way to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The example I gave above, about the first mirrors being pools of water, (which is the first line from the mirror article), is another similar opinion. Undisputed theories are often presented using citation only, preferrably with links to articles, such as electromagnetism, that will expand on the theoretical nature underlying the subject. The article electroscope is a good example of undisputed theories backed up with undisputable observations (facts). The laser pumping article is full of these. The line from the mirror article is a good example of an undisputed theory with little to no evidence.
However, many opinions are disputed. It's not so much a disagreement about the facts, but about the interpretation, or, the meaning. In science as well as religion, the unanswerable question why is the primary goal. Everytime we answer this question, it leaves us with two more whys. (I'm sure we all remember discovering, around the age of four, that we could torture our parents with this question.) The important part, I think, is understanding that opinions require reasoning on the part of an individual, whereas facts are indeed undisputable observations. They are verifiable in reliable sources, and if accurate, by the reader who comes to experimentally test our information, say, by pumping their own laser.
The only thing we can ever verify about an opinion is that it exists. Understanding this not only helps us present information in a neutral way, but also with accuracy. Zaereth (talk) 01:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~A clear example~~
This proposal is for ASF. "An objective observation expresses a fact. A subjective interpretation expresses an opinion." We made this proposal based on this comment. QuackGuru (talk) 05:51, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work on this. As I made clear above, I have a more general issue with the length of the policy. Changes tend to make it longer and longer over time. I doubt very many editors have actually read it. This is a bigger issue though, and not only relevant to this change. Stephen B Streater (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll admit that your suggestion does look better, QuackGuru. I still have reservations about using the terms objective and subjective, because it leaves too much room for interpretation. These are not common phrases known to general audiences. This will require defining the terms in depth, (which took one source nearly an entire book), and that leads me straight to Stephen's fears.
I'll take a little while longer to mull this over in my subconscious, and see if I can help come up with some wording that is not only short, simple, and clear to a general audience, but also covers everyone's concerns. Zaereth (talk) 02:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~For clarification I added wikilinks to both objective and subjective. This keeps the text short while defining the terms. QuackGuru (talk) 02:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~I really dislike linking to articles in our policy... but I have to admit it does help. Blueboar (talk) 02:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~ASF template~~
^{[No serious dispute?]}
It was suggested that a template for ASF is helpful. This edit suggested we need a template when a serious dispute exists among reliable sources. QuackGuru (talk) 00:55, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Attribution~~
In an article about some topic raising disputes among scholars. It can be article about climate change, historical event, philosophical position, political movement. While using some author as a source. Is it important what position author holds regarding the subject, is it important to mention that position in the article, and what rules regulate that? Thanks! --windyhead (talk) 20:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, attribution is often very important. Besides this policy, look at WP:Verifiability and WP:Identifying reliable sources, and WP:No original research... all of which touch on this idea. You should also check out WP:Attribution, which while not a policy or a guideline, sums the issue up well. Blueboar (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~So may we somehow process to make changes to the rule? What the addition could be? --windyhead (talk) 12:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
If your question is whether we may mention, or even highlight, the name of an author of a source in the text, the answer is yes. It is up to the editor to decide whether to use just the publication's name, the author, or both for in-text attribution. Typically we'd want to focus on the better known. See this section relating to fringe theories, but the principles are similar for all topics. Crum375 (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. What about author's position regarding the subject? I. e. the Vegetarianism article refers to a scholar who is known to be vegetarian. Or the opposite. Would it be better the article to mention his position as well? --windyhead (talk) 09:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would say yes, this is often noted in our articles and it is practiced in media and scholarly works. Unomi (talk) 09:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So how about this addition to Attributing and specifying biased statements section: If the author is known to adhere to (to hold) some position on a subject he's discussing, and there is a reliable source for that, it is good the author's position to be mentioned. Please improve. --windyhead (talk) 10:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is getting into instruction creep here. Most of the time, an author's position on something will be obvious from what he says, ... on the other hand, if it is important to explicitly mention it, that can included in the attribution. We need to give editors lee-way to phrase things as they feel best. Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, and what must be done if there's a dispute about if the best way to phrase is to include the position or not to? --windyhead (talk) 13:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal: If the author is known to adhere to (to hold) some position on a subject he's discussing, and there is a reliable source for that, but author's position is not obvious from what he says, the article is considered more neutral if the author's position is mentioned. Please improve. --windyhead (talk) 11:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are lots of ways to resolve disputes... see if there is a compromise position, seek third party opinions though an RfC, request formal mediation... editing policy to resolve a specific dispute is never a good option. Blueboar (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Should topic specific issues be discussed in a general policy~~

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Comments requested as to whether it is appropriate for a broad policy to discuss issues that relate to only one specific topic area. There are currently two topic-specific sections in the NPOV policy that do this: WP:PSCI (relating only to pseudoscience) and WP:RNPOV (relating only to religion). It is proposed that these sections be removed. It is further proposed that the section on pseudoscience should be merged into WP:FRINGE. - Blueboar (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll kick this off by saying that I suspect two of the broadest areas with the most vociferous POV pushers are pseudoscience and religion, which are both fundamentally untestable belief based systems. If these are the areas which are causing editors the most trouble, many hours of strife may be saved by determining the WP approach in a single place - namely here. In this scenario, other areas of potential contention, such as commercial motivation, could also be sorted here. I wouldn't be opposed though to wikilinks to each problem area with brief directions from here. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Stephen that brief directions from here may be warranted. We could mention a list of general trouble areas such as religion, pseudoscience, and biased terminology like "terrorism", as examples, with links to specialized sub-pages that deal with them, like WP:FRINGE and WP:WTA. But going beyond a mere mention on this page would clutter it with details, while inviting disagreements and instability. Crum375 (talk) 21:49, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with Stephen. We should not attempt to strip WP:NPOV of these two very helpful examples of NPOV as should it be applied at Wikipedia. People often have trouble understanding NPOV and without examples the policy could be interpreted to suit the editor – someone wanting to promote Reincarnation research as a serious scientific endeavor would read NPOV to suit their purpose, while someone wanting an opposite approach would argue that NPOV supports them. Johnuniq (talk) 00:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I agree with these two improvements on my comments. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
Comment - If you have not already done so... please read the previous discussions on this... starting a few threads up (with WT:NPOV#Does consensus rule here or not?) and continuing through several subsequent threads. It will explain what lead to this RFC, and give many of the arguments in favor of (and a few against) the idea. I don't think it is necessary to repeat them all again here. Blueboar (talk) 02:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've been wading through all this stuff. Will revert if I discover anything which changes my mind. Also, happy that this discussion is focusing on the issues. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose removal of fringe theories section. That points of view held by an extremely small minority don't belong in Wikipedia, should be in NPOV. The section on religion can be moved out. -- Rico 23:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um... Rico, have you read the section in question? I don't think it says what you think it says. (And the section that comes closest to saying that is WP:UNDUE, which isn't under discussion.) Blueboar (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of the sections. First, it's not clear that they say anything. According to V, we can call views pseudoscientific if reliable sources do, and if not we can't; in addition, just because reliable sources say something doesn't mean we must repeat it, and that's something that can only be judged on a case-by-case basis, because it depends entirely on context, the quality and specificity of the sources, how many sources say it, and so on. Regarding the religion section, it could be summarized in one sentence, and that sentence would apply to all other topics.
Secondly, the pseudoscience section comes straight from ArbCom, and while I have no problem linking to an ArbCom case, or repeating a decision in a behavioral policy, I'm not comfortable about quoting them at length in a content policy, and I doubt if the ArbCom intended to be so quoted.
Finally, a general content policy is not the place to discuss specific content issues in depth; both the pseudoscience and religion sections would be more appropriate elsewhere, e.g. WP:FRINGE for pseudoscience. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 06:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support removal of the sections. Needlessly duplicates content of other policy pages. Unomi (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~partly done~~
OK... I have moved the pseudoscience section to WP:FRINGE as per the suggestion. Before I remove the Religion section, we need to think... is there a home for it somewhere else... can we move it or should it be simply deleted? Blueboar (talk) 22:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing that, BB. As for religion, personally I think it could be deleted. I don't think it's making a point that isn't already elsewhere on the page in a more general form. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 05:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~And DONE~~
OK... given no reply indicating a desire to move the religion material to some other location, I have followed Slim Virgin's suggestion and simply cut it. I think we are done with this. Blueboar (talk) 02:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~POVed quotes On Philip Larkin~~
almost-instinct says on Wikipedia_talk:Quotations#Unable_To_Post: "For the biogs sections I chose quotes that had some relevence to that section of Larkin's life. The other quotes are from popular poems and can stand alone."
We already have an article listing of Philip Larkin's Poems.
His choice of quotes is representing a certain point of view, specifically his, and using ~~this~~these quotes creates an opinion that wikipedia endorses. These quotes should be moved to wikiquote. Can we get more feedback?96.52.92.106 (talk) 03:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the complaint is too strong. Every selection of facts involves a judgment by the author on what is useful for the reader. It is quite impossible to summarize, say, a 500 page biography in 1000 words without making lots of choices--that is what or editors do all the time. Selecting poems of use to the reader is in the same category as selecting what facts to present, in my opinion. Rjensen (talk) 03:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These excerpts from poems are poved, tho. For example, if you are picking salient facts from a 500 page book, these facts must be verifiable from other independent sources.174.3.123.220 (talk) 04:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If an editor boils down two different 500 page books into one 1000 word article, there is even more selectivity required--selection is what Wikipeduia is all about, it is not a POV. Rjensen (talk) 04:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But the quotes have no explanation to their inclusion. They are jut boxed up in a corner. We are left to guess why they are there. Maybe the quotes could be introduced by prose saying, "This is a representative quote of (insert stage of Philip Larkin's life here):". But if we include that, wouldn't that be pov? If not, then original research?174.3.123.220 (talk) 05:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To quote SlimVirgin above a general content policy is not the place to discuss specific content issues in depth Discuss this on the talk page of the article, as it seems to be primarily a content dispute. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~For questions, advice and assistance on how this policy should be applied to specific articles, ask at WP:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Blueboar (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~about which there is no dispute~~
In the definition of a fact in WP:ASF, I don't think we mean "about which there is no dispute". Many facts are disputed (like evolution or the existence of the gas chambers); that doesn't stop us asserting them. --Kotniski (talk) 08:28, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus version says: By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This is correct. When there is no serious dispute and it is a fact we assert it. QuackGuru (talk) 17:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no consensus version, but by coincidence I see I've restored the word "serious" as you wanted (without even noticing this comment). --Kotniski (talk) 18:15, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."

The way the entire sentence was written before was better and was easier to understanding. Your rewrite makes no sense. QuackGuru (talk) 18:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you will find that 'about which there is no dispute' was in the original version that your text replaces. There is a difference between a fact that no-one disputes, and factual evidence that people put different interpretations on. The gas chambers are an example of this - as you'll see if you read the next paragraph down. Elen of the Roads (talk) 08:40, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you think that every time an article mentions that people were gassed at Auschwitz, we have to mention also that some people deny that fact? Perhaps these minority views should be mentioned in the main article on the subject, but that shouldn't stop us from asserting the supermajority view as fact elsewhere.--Kotniski (talk) 08:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No. What you chopped out when you changed the article was that the thrust of this section was not distinguishing fact from opinion. It was distinguishing that which could be asserted as beyond dispute from that which needed to be sourced and managed. "Mars is a planet" is beyond dispute (even to those who still believe in the Crystal Spheres). "People were gassed at Auschwitz" is not beyond dispute, and therefore needs to be sourced and managed. The counter view is of such a minority and fringe status that it need not be mentioned every single time (that certainly would fail WP:UNDUE), but it certainly cannot be asserted as a beyond-dispute-statement-that-everyone-is-familiar-with.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so we're totally confused now. I thought this was about fact vs. opinion; you thought it was about fact-requiring-sources vs. fact-not-requiring-sources. Actually I think if you look at it, it's supposed to be the former (because that's what the bold sentence at the beginning says; and if it were the latter it wouldn't belong on this page anyway). But if it's confusing experienced editors, then it's certainly going to confuse newcomers, so probably needs a complete rewrite.--Kotniski (talk) 11:12, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not arguing with your last sentence. I think the point it was trying to make that very few 'facts' are neutral, a lot of 'facts' can be presented in a way that supports one view or another (and not just in politics!!). Therefore, only 'facts' that everyone knows and no-one disputes can be just asserted. Everything else needs references, and recognition that it may be presented in more than one way. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Forcing changes without consensus to core Wikipedia policy is acceptable. These massive changes changed the meaning of ASF. I restored ASF to the last consensus version. ASF is not about fact-requiring-sources vs. fact-not-requiring-sources. It is about a fact v. an opinion. It is not about WP:V. QuackGuru (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kotniski, I specifically rejected your suggestion to rewrite entire policy. Why are you rewriting ASF without a discussion first. QuackGuru (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No problem with your revert - the way the discussion above was going wasn't particularly helping to clarify things I feel (and I really explained things badly) Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The edit did not match the edit summary. The edit summary was surely this is what it's trying to say?. Kotniski deleted a significant part of ASF policy without explanation. QuackGuru (talk) 17:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nonsense, I deleted a lot of empty guff. The sooner these stupid long, separate, meaningless pages are condensed into one sensisble and meaningful one, the better. Meanwhile, PLEASE don't make our life even harder by knee-jerk reverting when you don't even have a sensible reason.--Kotniski (talk) 18:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, you deleted a major part of ASF which changed the original meaning of ASF. You are continuing to force changes without consensus. See WP:CON.

Kotniski's edit summary was surely this is what it's trying to say?. But now Kotniski is saying I deleted a lot of empty guff without explantion for the strange edit. Kotniski, I know you deleted a massive amount of ASF policy but you never explained why you did it while you continued edit warring against consensus. Both Elen of the Roads and QuackGuru rejected the massive rewrite. QuackGuru (talk) 18:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still waiting to hear any substantial objection to my new wording. (And please stop saying I deleted "policy"; I rewrote the policy to say the same thing in fewer words. Somebody has to.)--Kotniski (talk) 18:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm disappointed you did not revert your massive changes and deletion of text against established consensus. I explained my concerns in my previous edit but you ignored my concerns. The non-consensus version makes no sense. Again, please revert the incoherent changes to ASF policy. QuackGuru (talk) 18:50, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All right, if it's consensus, then either revert it yourself or else someone else soon will. But I still don't udnerstand your objection - what do you find incoherent?--Kotniski (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I left this debate alone for a while, because there wasn't much take up of my idea of making it shorter. But Kotniski got it. Pages of subtle wording doesn't make good rules. Simple, clear - and brief - language does. ASF is supposed to be short and simple. The pages of description can go further down. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Avoid cites for common knowledge;

Cite other facts;

Give appropriate balance and cites for opinions.

If we say that, more people will bother to read it and understand it. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By "fact" we mean an objective statement - there is a planet called Mars, Plato was a philosopher - about which there is no serious dispute. This sentence is confusing and mixes different points into one sentence. This is completely incoherent and nonsense. This is one of many problems the non-consensus changes made.

By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This sentence clearly explained when there is no serious dispute we assert it as fact if it meets Wikipedia's definition of a fact.

I think it would be good faith editing if Kotniski took responsibity for the changes that Kotniski acknowledged does not have consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 19:09, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If we are into what people think, I think that people who make a proposal should not make the change. They have a conflict of interest when it comes to assessing consensus. In a true consensus, someone else would be willing to make the edit. However, in the case of mere acquiescence, there would be no change made, leaving the option open to form a true consensus. I have been burnt in the past by the difference between consensus and apathy. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:14, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I'm not going to edit it any more today, so revert or leave it or whatever - or even better, cooperate by improving the text further. (But please consider what Stephen says about shorter being better.)--Kotniski (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No specific response was made to my specfic objection to the actual text of non-consensus version. See WP:IDHT.

Kotniski deleted a massive amount of ASF policy but you never explained why you did it while Kotniski continued edit warring against consensus. Both Elen of the Roads and QuackGuru preferred the previous consensus version. QuackGuru (talk) 19:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per Wikipedia:POLICY#Content_changes, let's please seek community consensus before making unilaterally making changes which have not been posted to test for community agreement. BigK HeX (talk) 19:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone put the two versions side by side, so we can clearly see what the differences are? Blueboar (talk) 20:04, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dunno if it helps, but here's a diff.[4] The first one is the new stuff, while the second one represents the older wording that appears to have been discussed above. BigK HeX (talk) 20:11, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Blueboar, I think you can get a better view from this angle. The editor claimed to rewrite ASF but deleted a lot of text. QuackGuru (talk) 01:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
I get the sense that this discussion is off a little bit. I see no point to a discussion of fact vs. opinion - the distinction as such is irrelevant to Wikipedia, there are only views. I suspect that the cause of confusion here is that the issue (with fact) is not whether it is highly disputed, somewhat disputed, or accepted. I think the important issue is "by whom?" What makes evolution a "fact" is that all major biologists accept it. That matters. That fundamentalist Christians do not accept it matters too, which is why Wikipedia presents the article on creationism with the same neutraility as it presents the article on evolution. My point is, there are few if any "facts" that everyone in the world agree on. But there is a big difference between something that all biologists accept and no fundamentalist Christian accepts, and something that biologists are divided on, and fundamentalists are divided on. In short, we treat something as a fact when all the views we agree need to be represented in the article accept it as such. But it is still a view, it is just a view that is shared by all stakeholders in the given article. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was what I was trying to explain (badly) above. It's not really talking about facts or opinions, its differentiating between matters that nobody will dispute (well OK, my dad might, but he's just like that) and matters that there is more than one view of any significance on. I actually think the current version does not benefit from calling the first 'fact' and the second 'opinion', because this extends the natural language usage of the word 'opinion'. Equally, Kotnisky's version did not effectively distinguish what is assertable. There are better definitions of that-which-does-not-need-citing in WP:V (or there was last time I looked). The nutshell version of this needs to say something different. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:09, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is exactly this concept that makes me extremely uncomfortable with editing Wikipedia. Nowhere in in the sources I've provided on non-fiction writing does anyone claim that facts are just another form of opinion. Evolution is not a fact, no matter how many people believe in it. It's a theory, and any scientist worth his salt will be very careful to lable their theories as such. It is based on facts, such as fossile evidence and such, but cannot be proved.
Now if I write that a flashtube is usually powered by a capacitor, and someone tells me that's just my opinion, then I'm bound to get a little irrate. It is this kind of irrationality that I prefer to avoid, for I do not see how it can promote quality and accuracy. Zaereth (talk) 21:35, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually 'evolution' - the change in species over time - is a fact. It is the reasons given for why it happens (confoundingly also called 'evolution') that is the theory. But you are right. It is not unreasonable to ask for a citation to an obscure fact (the depth of the Marianas trench say), and that's not because it's an opinion, its to make sure you didn't just make it up; but it's maddening to ask for a citation that a blender is used to make soup. At the same time, there are plenty of 'facts' out there that are really 'interpretations of the evidence', and while it can be a severe stretch of the word to refer to these as opinions, one does sometimes have to recognise that there are several interpretations to that piece of evidence. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The interpretations are opinions. The facts (evidence) themselves are not. That's my point. We can double check the evidence. Someone added to the Dogfight article that the term came from the noise made when WWI pilots would start and stop their engines during combat. While this was sourced, it was not reliably sourced. It was not hard to find sources indicating that WWI planes did not even have starters, and more sources showing the facts about the term without the needto speculate about why. Zaereth (talk) 22:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So does everyone agree with my wording above? It's very concise, everyone will actually read it, and the long version can appear elsewhere. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think everyone agrees with the wording above or the other wording above to eliminate the meaning of ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 01:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No I don't agree with those versions either. My version above is this. Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it does by far read better. I tend to disagree that so-called common knowledge should not be cited. It's just as easy to do with blenders as it is with flashtubes. In fact, common knowledge is the easiest to cite. I'd hate to go to the blender article and find zero cites, because someone feels it is all common knowledge. I simply feel that a citation is not needed for every line, provided the information can be found in the same source. Perhaps a more specific example can show me why we should avoid using them. Zaereth (talk) 22:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The argument between Zaereth and Elen of the Roads (or anyone with a solid grounding in science) as to whether evolution is a fact or not demonstrates the wisdom of our NPOV policy quite nicely. Of course evolution is a fact, and Zaereth doesn't know what the difference is between a theory and an opinion. But ask Zaereth and she will say that I am the one who is full of crap. So we could go endlessly in circles, "I am write," "No, I am right" ... or we can comply with Wikipedia policy, specifically this one, NPOV, and say that there are just views. There is a consensus among scientists that evolution is a fact. Do you see what I have done? I have ascribed this view to the people who hold the view. And by implication it is now clear that we are talking about views, because at Wikipedia that is all there are, views held by different people. Scientists are of the view that evolution is a fact. Fundamentalists are of the view that it is an opinion. See my point? It doesn't matter whther we call it a fact or an opinion, because both of those are views. What does matter is identifying whose view, because depending on whose view we are talking about it is a fact, or an opinion. It is obviously both, in that diferent groups hold both views. If you cannot live with this, you do not belong at Wikipedia. Go find another soapbox. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will please refer you to the reliable sources which I have provided on the subject of non-fiction writing, and I would ask you to provide sources which back up the views which you suggest. Do you wish me to list them again. Shall I provide more? Zaereth (talk) 00:09, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's ASF makes a distinction that there different views. One view is a fact an another view is an opinion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are any of these reliable sources used in Wikipedia articles. I would like to see the sources along the ISBN numbers if availabe. QuackGuru (talk) 01:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Notification:The suggestion to completely rewrite or cut in half ASF seems to change (possibly even eliminate) the long-standing policies in the ASF section. If we're going to eliminate one of the purposes of WP:ASF, then I'd think it'd be worthy to have a broader discussion (probably a RFC) specifically on that topic first. So far no logical reason has been given to drastically change core ASF policy. QuackGuru (talk) 02:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative formulation of the policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions--but don't assert opinions themselves
We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the nonbias policy: assert
facts, including facts about opinions--but don't assert opinions themselves.
By "fact," on the one hand, we mean "a piece of information about which
there is no serious dispute." In this sense, that a survey produced a
certain published result is a fact. That Mars is a planet is a fact.
That 2+2=4 is a fact. That Socrates was a philosopher is a fact. No one
seriously disputes any of these things. So Wikipedians can feel free to
assert as many of them as we can. By "opinion," on the other hand, we
mean "a piece of information about which there is some serious dispute."
There's bound to be borderline cases where we're not sure if we should
take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that
very clearly express opinions. That God exists is an opinion. That the
Beatles were the greatest rock and roll group is an opinion. That
intuitionistic logic is superior to ordinary logic is an opinion. That the
United States was wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki
is an opinion.
This is the first paragraph from early years Wikipedia policy when Larry Sanger was editing. QuackGuru (talk) 02:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Dawkins, a hard-headed scientist, in his book, The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution, goes on at quite some length in his first chapter, titled "Only a theory", about treating a scientific theory as fact, quoting two senses of the word Theory from the OED:

Theory, Sense 1: A scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed.

Theory, sense 2: A hypothesis proposed as an explanation; hence, a mere hypothesis, speculation, conjecture; an idea or set of ideas about something; an individual view or notion.

He goes on to name Heliocentrism and Evolution as two examples of theories where the Sense 1 definition applies.
I saw a WP talk page remark recently saying that in the statement "When a gold-leaf electroscope is charged, the leaves separate because the like charges on the two leaves cause them to repel one another.", the portion prior to the word because is fact, and the rest is scientific opinion. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Exactly. Newton's theory of gravity is an opinion. The laws of gravity are facts. Everything that answers the what, the where, the when, the who, and the how are facts. Everything else is an opinion. Thank you Wtmitchell.
~~To QuackGuru, I have no clue if these sources have been used on Wikipedia. Here they are:~~
On writing well, the classical guide to writing non-fiction by William Zinnsser.

Stein on writing;; by Sol Stein

McGraw Hill concise guide to writing research papers by Carol Ellison

A journalistic approach to good writing: the craft of clarity By Robert M. Knight

Reading and writing nonfiction genres By Kathleen Buss, Lee Karnowski

Literary journalism in the twentieth century By Norman Sims

Philosophy of scientific method by John Stuart Mill,
I have no clue what an ISBN is, (unless this is fighter pilot talk, I don't speak in acronyms). I can provide the copyright dates and publishers. I can even provide a link to google itself, if needed. Zaereth (talk) 05:09, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
William Zinsser (2008). On Writing Well: The Classic Guide To Writing Nonfiction: 30th Anniversary Edition (7 ed.). HarperCollins Publishers. ISBN 0-06171-356-2.

Robert M. Knight (2003). A Journalistic Approach to Good Writing: The Craft of Clarity (2 ed.). Iowa State Press. p. 269. ISBN 0-81381-208-9.

Which Wikipedia article(s) these references can be used for building article content. QuackGuru (talk) 05:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't helped by dividing the material between three separate pages (NPOV, V, NOR). But whatever it is we want to say, we need to say it clearly. As far as my edit goes, as far as I can tell no-one's actually raised any objections to it - it doesn't change the substance of what was written, just makes it shorter and clearer (though doubtless it could be further improved). In fact I think we should tear up these three pages as currently written, since there is no agreement among editors even on what they mean (and hence they are quite unhelpful and misleading to the newcomers for whom they are intended), and work on writing something clear that all reasonable editors will understand and agree on. But meanwhile, I think those of you who revert changes just because they "need consensus" (and without specifying what objection you have to them) have no idea how Wikipedia works. That attitude is probably responsible for the pitiful state these pages have got into - incomprehensible text isn't allowed to be touched because it's sacred, so eventually such text overruns the whole page. (OK it's not all that bad, but really, this is one of the most key policies, and there shouldn't be anything unclear or meaningless on the page.)--Kotniski (talk) 05:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No specific response was made to my specfic objection to the actual text of the incomprehensible version.

Kotniski deleted a massive amount of ASF policy but you never explained why you did it while Kotniski continued edit warring against consensus. Both Elen of the Roads and QuackGuru preferred the previous consensus version. I did have a specific objection and no response was made. The consensus version is very clear. QuackGuru (talk) 05:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't understand your objection. Is it that you prefer "piece of information" over "objective statement"? (If so, that can be easily remedied without reverting the whole thing.) And please stop claiming there is a consensus version - this discussion shows that there is not even a common understanding of what this issue is, let alone a common position, and still less an agreed way of putting it into words.--Kotniski (talk) 06:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By "fact" we mean an objective statement - there is a planet called Mars, Plato was a philosopher - about which there is no serious dispute. This sentence is confusing and mixes different points into one sentence. This is completely incoherent and nonsense. Inserting objective and in the middle adding Mars and Plato is strange and confusing.

By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." There is not a problem with this sentence and you are unable to provide a reasonable objection to this sentence. QuackGuru (talk) 06:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All right, I don't object to that sentence (though I think using the word "objective" will make it immediately understandable to many readers; however I don't insist). Do you have any other objections to what I changed?--Kotniski (talk) 06:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I objected to the massive text deletion and rewrite. You have not explained your objection to any specific sentence. Can you tell us why you are against core ASF policy. you want to completely rewrite policy but never gave a specific reason. The current elaborated version is very clear. The shortened version is confusing and vague.

That would be confusing to insert the word objective. Editors are working in another thread on two separate sentences to explain the difference between an objective observation and a subjective interpretation. QuackGuru (talk) 06:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The point of the section is to inform new readers of the sort of thing they should be doing, not to try and specify every action in every case. How about a new section, perhaps called A simple formulation, which looks like this. The detailed version being discussed here could then be added below by means of explanation for those who need it. We could fix the wording common knowledge to take into account Zaereth's point, but this gist is that referencing every trivial facts clutters up articles. Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to want to take this in another direction. As I understand it, this isn't supposed to be about citing vs. not citing, it's about the facts we state directly vs. the opinions we state only indirectly. The fact that you and others have interpreted it as being something to do with citing (which belongs on another page, not WP:NPOV) is evidence of how unclear the present version is, and a good reason to include words like "objective" that make it clear what we're talking about. Or we should give examples of facts that aren't trivially obvious (like Mars being a planet).--Kotniski (talk) 08:06, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - the whole section seems overlong and complicated. As you say, my solution is to a different problem. If we take the citing part out of my proposal, it's even shorter:
State information which is common knowledge;

Give appropriate balance where opinions differ.

Is this the nub of what we are trying to achieve? Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't put it in quite those words - most information in Wikipedia isn't "common knowledge".--Kotniski (talk) 09:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we can find the right words then. We could try "uncontroversial", "obviously true", "easily verifiable so no verification is required here". Perhaps "uncontroversial in the area" would be best, since an article about a subject should only need to provide cites for things that someone with a passing knowledge of the subject would like to check. An article about planets wouldn't need to say that Mars was a planet because it's well known in planet circles. Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~New section (for ease of use - do read the above thread if you've just arrived)~~
I think we're getting in a tangle because we're not thinking about why we are referring to common knowledge. It's not because its easily verifiable, it's because it is beyond dispute. The whole thrust of ASF is that unless something is beyond dispute, the article must retain an overall neutral approach to presenting the information, because there will be differing views (I'm favouring Slrubenstein on this - I don't think differentiating between 'fact' and 'opinion' is particularly helpful). Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So perhaps something like:-
Some article content is common knowledge - water is wet, for example - and can just be stated. However, for most subjects, the likelihood is that there is more than one view on them. Editors must be careful not to represent their view as if it were the only view (the Flailing Hairnets are the best band to come out of Swindon in years). Articles must present a neutral point of view, and this means being clear about where the view presented comes from and how well established is (a poll in NME voted the Flailing Hairnets the best band to come out of Swindon in years), and including information on alternative views when these exist (in Radio 6 'Band of the Month' polls, listeners voted the Flailing Hairnets sixth in three consecutive months).
It can then go on to advice on
how to present alternative views

how much weight to give to views

the importance of references
~~etcElen of the Roads (talk) 11:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
I don't agree that for most subjects there is more than one view. At least, not for the subjects we address in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is full of facts; most of them are not the subject of dispute, but most of them are not common knowledge either (if they were, we wouldn't need Wikipedia). There are also opinions that may not be the subject of serious dispute ("Hitler was a bad man"), but we just don't make that sort of statement in the encyclopedia, however universally held they are.--Kotniski (talk) 11:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Zaereth still does not understand the difference between theory and fact. The view that the empirical observation is the fact and the interpretation of it is the opinion or theory goes back to 1950s debates in epistemology which have since been rejected by philosophers and quite a few scientists. The real issue here is that Wikipedia is not the place to forward or views on epistemology or metaphysics. NPOV is about a framework that enable editors who think other editors are completely wrong to be able to work together. let's keep our eyes on the ball, folks. Pragmatically, I agree that a fact is something everyone agrees on. By "everone" all that matters is everyone editing an article. If all editors agree, there is no point to go into detail sourcing the view. This of course can change at any time in a new editor becomes active and rejects the so-called fact. As soon as there is a conflict on the talk page, or an edit war, it is obviously the most sensible thing to consider that there may be two views. Then the first question is, is the second view fringe. If it is fringe, it can be discounted. If it is minority, even a small minority, the article has to be rewritten to provide both views. The second part of the clause, "including opinions about facts," would be much clearer if we wrote, "Views should be presented about views. Many of the views presented in Wikipedia are views about facts."
No one is trying to rewrite policy, except Zaereth who states explicitly on her talk page that her goal is to change policy. My goal is on the contrary to defend NPOV. And my intention in this discussion is simply to make this passage of the NPOV policy worded in a way that is (1) clearer and (2) more consistent with Wikipedia policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quite. I disagree with Kotniski that for most subjects there is only one view (Kotniski is obviously wise, and never spends time on Administrator boards), but regardless of whether they are few or many, the nub is that if there is more than one view, editors must work together to represent them appropriately. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Second attempt: Some article content is common knowledge. Other content is not disputed - all the sources give the same answer. However, where there is more than one view on the content, editors must be careful not to represent their view as if it were the only one, or insist that their view should be the only one in the article. Articles must present a neutral point of view, and this means being clear about where the view you want to present comes from, how well established is, and what the alternative views are. Reliable sources should be used, as well as talkpage discussion, to ensure that overall the article has a balanced presentation of all the views.
I'd then give a list of do's and don'ts, rather than paragraphs of information. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I think that's getting close. But "common knowledge" and "not disputed" don't need to be distinguished here, I think - that's for other policies. Wikipedia content should consist of facts which are (or could be if necessary) confirmed by reliable sources. Some of these facts concern people's views. We have a potential neutrality problem when (a) different sources give conflicting statements of fact; or (b) there are conflicting views that potentially could be reported. Then we have to get the balance right. In fact what you propose writing seems reasonable (though I wouldn't include "as well as talkpage discussion" - this is about what we want to achieve, not the process for achieving it).--Kotniski (talk) 12:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have been trying my best to read the above, but may have still missed something crucial. As far as I see it, we should not distinguish, or even try to define, "fact" or "opinion". From WP's point of view, per WP:V and WP:NOR, anything which we write must be attributable to a reliable source. If anything is challenged or likely to be challenged, or quoted, we must cite an inline source. If the material is the common view by all reliable sources, i.e. "asserted", then it generally needs no attribution, though it still needs to be attributable. If the material is contentious, there should be in-text attribution, i.e. "X says Y". Other cases can have just an inline citation as appropriate. I think trying to add definitions of "facts" and "opinions" only adds unnecessary confusion. Crum375 (talk) 13:26, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I think we're sliding towards that. How's this~~
Where there is more than one view on the content of an article, editors must be careful not to represent their view as if it were the only one, or insist that their view should be the only one in the article. Articles must present a neutral point of view, and this means being clear about where the view you want to present comes from, how well established is, and what the alternative views are. Reliable sources should be used to ensure that overall the article has a balanced presentation of all the views.
Do not
Add content which cannot be verified

Add your own opinion to an article (I think Elvis is King)

Present your opinion, or anyone else's opinion, as if it were a fact (Elvis IS King)

Crowd-source content (everybody knows that Elvis is King)

Be vague about whose view you are reporting - in Wikipedia, this is called weasel words (Some say he eats only hamburgers)

Report the views held by the fringe, or by a tiny minority, as if they are mainstream (It is widely believed that Elvis isn't dead)

Give undue weight to just one aspect of the subject (Elvis's poor diet probably contributed to his death, but this does not justify twenty paragraphs on his eating habits)

Cherry-pick information to suit your own viewpoint

Remove opposing views from an article, or edit war to keep your perspective in the article
Do
Ensure that if a dispute should arise, you have a reliable source for anything that you want to add

Show clearly when you are reporting on a particular view, and be clear about whose view it is (Rolling Stone Magazine has proclaimed Elvis "the king of Rock and Roll")

Give appropriate weight to different views. If there are several recognised theories, they should be given equal treatment. If there is a recognised minority view, it needs to be referred to.

Avoid fringe views in mainstream articles. An article on the Pyramids may need to represent the views of several Egyptologists, but there is no need to include the theory that they were built by spacemen.

Accurately represent sources - if the source supports a view, but also contains some criticism, you should cover both aspects.

Ask other editors to provide sources if you disagree with what they have added
~~More could be said, I'm sure Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
I think this "do and don't" list is good, though it's more than just NPOV — it seems to cover all of our sourcing policies. Which brings us back to WP:ATT, which should have included all of them in the first place. Crum375 (talk) 14:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key point here is that the distinction between fact and opinion is meaningless at Wikipedia, and this part of the policy should be rewritten to get rid of the distinction. We just have views. Philosopher Ian Hacking (I think that is his name) argued in his book on the social construction of facts that a fact is just somethign everyone takes for granted in order to talk about other things. That is one reason I think that all we have is views - some views everyone takes for granted, some views are accepted but not taken for granted, some views are accepted by some but not all, etc. The difference is not in the view, but in the weight different people or groups of people give that view. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:19, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree fully. Any distinction between "fact" and "opinion" is artificial and controversial, and adds nothing but confusion to our policies. We need to summarize material written by others, and cite the sources as appropriate. Whether we characterize something as "fact", "opinion", or "truth" doesn't matter, as long as it's attributed or attributable to a reliable source. Crum375 (talk) 14:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What I've tried to do above is just focus on POV, and listed the things that people do because they have a POV and don't know how to edit Wikipedia, but Crum375 is right, it would help if all the policies were tied together better, as POV-warriors also rubbish other people's sources, ignore sources, and do other things that are violations of more policies than just NPOV Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:15, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I believe the point has merit, I think to suggest that there can be no distinction between "fact" and "opinion" is slightly overstated. Discussing things like "who," "where," "when," and the physical sequences of events that occur would involve "facts." Superlatives would be on the "opinion" side. Of course, it is the gray area in between that we are focusing on today. On that matter, I would submit that there are an infinity of commonly-accepted assertions that have no backing RS. BigK HeX (talk) 15:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between objective facts and subjective judgements, even if it's fuzzy at the edges. I think everyone can see the difference between "Nazis killed Jews" and "Nazis were evil". The sources will agree on both statements; Wikipedia can directly state only the first.--Kotniski (talk) 15:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree (with BigK HeX), and I think this is one of the reasons that the NPOV page makes so much reference to citation, because the call for a source should make it clear whether we are dealing with a fact or an opinion. A lot of NPOV issues arise in areas where there are few facts and a lot of opinions, so how to convey information that is not pin-downable should be part of this page.However , going back in the historical record, one quickly finds the facts evaporating, and where and when becomes far harder to pin down than one would imagine. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Any material added to Wikipedia articles must be attributable, which means it must have been published by a reliable source. We don't care if the material in question is a "fact", "opinion", "idea", or anything else. If it is attributable, we may include it, otherwise we may not, assuming it is neutrally presented, does not violate WP:UNDUE or WP:SYN, and does not otherwise fail some content policy like BLP. Because the "fact" vs. "opinion" characterization has no impact on the material's includability on WP, focusing on these distinctions, whatever they may be, only adds confusion. Crum375 (talk) 16:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@Kotniski, it is surprising how often what one thinks of as 'fact' turns out to be no such thing. Documents are missing, eyewitness testimonies are contradictory, governments are suspected of doctoring figures, maps are misleading, instructions are vague. No-one can agree with 'factual' certainty on the governmental status of Gibralter (just go look at the talk page - it got so violent it ended at ArbCom). How can that be? Because there are two absolutely rock solid reliable sources (the UN and the UK Government) that contradict each other.Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I very much agree with Crum, in that fact versus opinion makes no distinction about inclusion. However, if anyone cares to look at the sources I've provided, I'm sure you'll find that the distinction is about accuracy and neutrality.
Slrubenstein, if you think I don't know anything about science, please go to the articles on which I've worked and revert anything I've done. Start with the liquid article. Glass, glass transition, laser pumping, mangalloy, basic fighter maneuvers, dye laser, ruby laser. As I've stated many times, I have no intention of making any changes to policy myself. I'm merely pointing out a reason why Wikipedia cannot elevate itself to the level of reliable source. I am still blown away by some of the stuff that passes for common knowledge around here. I try to correct these with reliable sources, but if you feel the version of the flashtube article was better of before I arrived, then please go make the revert. I will not edit war, but you may be in for a surprise when you start working with actual scientists. Zaereth (talk) 16:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Verifiability supercedes fact and opinions~~
~~Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves.~~
A few editors seem to not understand what this sentence means. It has nothing at all to do with WP:V. It is about attributing to so-and-so said. It is about asserting a fact without in-text attribution and for an opinion do not assert it but instead use in-text attribution when there is a serious dispute. In-text attribution is not V. In-text attribution is so-and-so said. This is a case by case basis for each article and not set in stone. Although this policy is not specifically about V controversial text still must ber verified.
This is a proposal for Facts and opinions (ASF): "In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source regardless if it is a truthful statement." If editors want to include information about V to avoid confusion we can include this sentence. I made this proposal based on this comment. QuackGuru (talk) 16:24, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely disagree with this. On Wikipedia we do not distinguish between facts, opinions, ideas or any other material added to an article. All material must be attributable to a reliable source. Dwelling on these distinctions, whatever they might be, only adds confusion. Crum375 (talk) 16:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Crum375. We got in a complete tangle with this obvious facts malarkey - it's nothing to do with NPOV whatsoever, and is of no help on the NPOV page. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On Wikipedia we most certainly do distinguish between facts and opinions. If you disagree then you want to eliminate core ASF policy. Attributable to a reliable source and in-text attribution are different points. Do you understand there is a difference or are you thoroughly confused. QuackGuru (talk) 16:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
QuackGuru - I am certain that I am not allowed to state my own opinion in a Wikipedia article, or doctor the article so it only reflects my opinion. What I am saying is that your 'ASF policy' is a mess. Indeed, it isn't a policy at all. It's wedged in on the NPOV page (NPOV is a policy) without any clear indication of why or how it relates to NPOV. What does Mars being a planet mean in terms of my POV? Many facts need interpretation - the POV lies in the interpretation, and that is what the NPOV policy has to deal with. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:46, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What your saying is not about ASF. Please tell us what is the difference between attributable to a reliable source and in-text attribution. QuackGuru (talk) 16:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) There is no "ASF" policy. The ASF section in NPOV is an island of confusion, which doesn't say anything intelligible. At best it repeats what's already in NPOV and other policies. All material on WP must be attributable to a reliable source. An inline citation is required if the material is challenged, or likely to challenged, or a quote. An in-text attribution is recommended if the material is contentious. There is no need to classify material into categories of "fact", "fiction", "truth", "opinion", "idea" or whatever. All such classifications do is add confusion among editors. Crum375 (talk) 16:52, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I agree with this as well. Wikipedia does not make a distinction about fiction, and that certainly does make it easier doesn't it? Zaereth (talk) 17:03, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
At best it repeats what's already in NPOV and other policies? I cannot find any other section or policy that is similar to ASF.

An inline citation is required if the material is challenged, or likely to challenged, or a quote. An inline citation is a reference.

An in-text attribution is recommended if the material is contentious. An in-text attribution is so-and-so said.

There is difference between attributable to a reliable source and in-text attribution. ASF is about facts (in-text attribution not required) and opinions (in-text attribution is recommended). QuackGuru (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Can we be clear about this. Those who are saying we don't distinguish between facts and opinions would be quite happy with stating, without any "so-and-so said", that (say) "The Nazis were evil". Is that right?--Kotniski (talk) 17:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not right. See my replies elsewhere, but for anything contentious we recommend in-text attribution, and a direct quote if very contentious. So "Nazis are evil" would be controversial and should include a direct quotation and in-text attribution. Crum375 (talk) 17:18, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And what makes it contentious? Is it not the fact that it's a subjective judgement rather than an objective statement? (Because I'm sure a greater percentage of sources say it than the percentage that say that life evolved.)--Kotniski (talk) 17:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, because one man's "objective" is another's "subjective". What makes a piece of material contentious is that editors on the page think so, by consensus and common sense. Trying to nail it down further in a policy would be legislating common sense. Crum375 (talk) 17:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with this first sentence, Crum. please read Philosophy of scientific method. There is no objectivity. There is only "accuracy and fairness without bias." however, I very much disagree that editors should decide what is contentious in the world. Doing so is directly placing our own values into an article. Reliable source should decide what is or is not contentious. Who are we to decide? We should simply list all sides of an opinion, and accurately report the facts. Zaereth (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The editors can look at the sources and decide if there is any disagreement among them. That disagreement would constitute "contention". Or, if some editors think that, based on the available sources, something is black and others think it's white, that's also contention. In other words, unless we and the sources are in complete agreement, the matter is contentious. To decide how contentious it is, we still need consensus and common sense. Crum375 (talk) 17:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you take the word "we" out of that "in other words" sentence, and let the sources agree or disagree, then I will go along with that. I will not discount the value of consensus and common sense. However, we must not lose one to gain the other, as is the definition of groupthink. There seems to be a fear of reliable sources here, which puzzles me. In my view, they should be first and foremost. Zaereth (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the sources are "first and foremost". All we (the editors) are doing is summarizing them in a neutral fashion. If one source says black, and the other white, there is controversy. But to judge how much controversy there is, which source is more reliable, and how to present them fairly, properly weighted by their relative reliability and acceptance by the mainstream, we use our own editorial common sense and consensus. Crum375 (talk) 18:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Quack, you are just repeating the same words, but they don't make any sense (at least to me, and I suspect others). As I noted above, all material must be attributable. If it is challenged or likely to be challenged, it requires an inline citation. If it's controversial, we recommend an in-text attribution, and a direct quote if very controversial. There is no need for any classification into "facts", "opinions", or anything else. Unnecessary classifications and definitions just add confusion. Crum375 (talk) 17:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You claimed "At best it repeats what's already in NPOV and other policies." What other policy or section repeats ASF.

If it's controversial, we recommend an in-text attribution. It is classified as an opinion when it is a controversial statement. When it is an opinion then we can use in-text attribution. A non-controversial statement that is not disputed is a fact. Not having a clear definition for facts and opinions will add to the confusion. If you think a controversial statement shouldn't be classified as an opinion then what do you propose we do with ASF. Delete core ASF policy? QuackGuru (talk) 17:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) There is no "ASF core policy". There is some ASF mumbo-jumbo in the NPOV policy which adds nothing that I can see to NPOV and the other policies. The distinction into "fact", "opinion", "idea", or anything else is irrelevant for Wikipedia sourcing policies. I repeat, since it's not getting through: all material must be attributable. If it is challenged or likely to be challenged, it requires an inline citation. If it's controversial, we recommend an in-text attribution, and a direct quote if very controversial. The classification into "opinion", "fact", "idea" or any other category, does not play a role in our sourcing requirements and only adds confusion. Crum375 (talk) 17:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is clearly "ASF core policy". The distinction into "fact" versus an "opinion" is relevant for Wikipedia's inline-text attribution (so-and-so says). For a fact is not required to attribute (so-and-so says) to a source. No, I did not say it is not required that facts should not be attributable to a source. All material must be attributable is about V policy. If it is challenged or likely to be challenged, is a separate issue and not what ASF is about. However, a "fact" versus an "opinion" does not change the role in our sourcing requirements. There is a difference between inline citations and in-text attribution. ASF and V policies remain separate and distinct. QuackGuru (talk) 19:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "ASF core policy", and it seems to me you are simply confused. All material must be attributable to a reliable source. Challenged material, or material likely to be challenged, must include an inline reference. Contentious material should normally include in-text attribution. More controversial material should be quoted. All quotes require inline sources. That's it. There is no ASF needed for any for that. There is no distinction between "opinion", "fact", or "idea" or any other label. Adding these distinctions only adds confusion with no benefit. Crum375 (talk) 20:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is "ASF core policy", and it seems you are missing the point.

"All material must be attributable to a reliable source. Challenged material, or material likely to be challenged, must include an inline reference." An inline reference is not the point ASF policy makes and ASF is not about V. ASF policy explains when in-text attribution (so-and-so) is recommended or not required.

ASF policty does make a distinction between "opinions" and "facts", and avoids confusion with huge benefit such as on alternative medicine articles where there are disputes. QuackGuru (talk) 21:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ASF is not a policy. It is some unintelligible words embedded inside NPOV policy which create confusion and help nothing. If the added material is controversial, it needs in-text attribution. If it's more controversial, a quote from the source may be needed. Nothing to do with "facts", "fiction", "opinions", "truth" or "consequences". Crum375 (talk) 21:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~To avoid confusion maybe we can explain how ASF and V are different. QuackGuru (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
Quack. Do you want to say "all controversial material must be cited" or "don't add opinions as if they were Gospel"? It doesn't matter whether you call it a fact or a teapot - if someone disputes the information it requires a citation, if Gordon Brown says Labour are the greatest, I can't put "labour are the greatest" in the article. "Show clearly when you are reporting on a particular view, and be clear about whose view it is " (quoting myself) would appear to cover it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to say that in ASF. After reading what other editors are saying I think ASF should stick to facts and opinions. QuackGuru (talk) 19:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So this whole thing can be summed up as "if you want to include information that is someone's opinion, you must say something like "according to Gordon Brown, Labour are the greatest." Didn't we already say this? Why are you saying that we want to do away with this, and what does Mars being a planet have to do with it? Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This whole thing cannot be summed up with a few sentences. When editors are saying ASF is mumbo jumbo or deleting large portions of ASF policy then I assume editors are against ASF. Mars is a planet is a fact. We don't need so-and-so says phrases for obvious facts. QuackGuru (talk) 20:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are no "facts" or "opinions" on Wikipedia, only bits of information, which we call "material". If all sources agree that Mars is a planet, then unless it's challenged, it would require no attribution, but would still need to be attributable (i.e. we should have a source handy in case it's challenged). If recent sources say that Pluto is not a planet, it's likely to be challenged by someone, so we need to attribute that statement via inline citation. If some lone scientist argues that Pluto is still a planet, we'd need in-text attribution, because that's more controversial. If someone claims Pluto has life, and other sources disagree, we may need to quote his words. No ASF needed, simply a gauging of the level of controversy or challenge by editors. The presentation format should be as follows: no challenge, and no likelihood of a challenge, only attributability is needed; a challenge, a likelihood of a challenge or a quote, inline citation is needed; contentious material needs in-text attribution; and very controversial material may need a quotation from the source. No need to classify things into "fact", "fiction", "truth", "idea", "opinion" or any other category. Just judge the contentiousness or controversy level of the material to decide on the presentation format, but everything must be attributable to a reliable source. Crum375 (talk) 21:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An inline citation is for WP:V. An in-text attribution is for WP:ASF. These are different policies. There is no need to confound two policies. QuackGuru (talk) 21:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In-text attribution is needed to present any controversial material. Even more controversial material may need a direct quote from the source. There is no need to define "facts", "opinions", "ideas" or any other categories to explain that. There is no need for any confusing ASF section. Crum375 (talk) 21:18, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Editors at chiropractic think adding an unttributed controversial opinion as fact is okay as long as it is sourced according to ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing requirement is specified by WP:V and WP:NOR, not ASF. You seem to be very confused about our policies. If something is challenged, it must be attributed by an inline citation. If it's controversial, an in-text attribution is recommended. Crum375 (talk) 21:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think I am confused about. I am not confused about Wikipedia policies. Other editors at chiropractic think an unttributed controversial opinion as fact is okay as long as it is sourced according to ASF. I think if it is challenged, it must be attributed using an an inline citation and then if it's controversial, an in-text attribution (so-and-so says) is recommended. But V and ASF policies are different. QuackGuru (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any specific examples you can maybe construct where this would actually alter anything from standard practice? This seems like the distinctions here may be hair splitting. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The debate at chiropractic has spilled over to NPOV policy guidelines. Editors continue to violate ASF, Weight, and Consensus. See Talk:Chiropractic#Neutral point of view. Editors think inline citation is attributable per WP:ASF. I am not splitting hairs. I am pulling my hairs! QuackGuru (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You should take a step back and read the policies. There is no "ASF policy" or "ASF violation". If you want to add that the moon is made of green cheese, first find a reliable source. Then, gauge the controversy level: if it's high (as in this case), use in-text attribution. If it's very high (as in this case), use a direct quote. That's all there is to it. Since everything must be attributable, the issue is only the presentation format. Of course the above assumes you meet WP:UNDUE and all other relevant policies. Crum375 (talk) 21:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it is okay to add an unttributed controversial opinion as fact as long as it is sourced? QuackGuru (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand your question. If we add material which is not challenged or likely to be challenged, no source attribution is needed, but it must still be attributable, i.e. a source must be presented when challenged. If the material is controversial, a source must be provided via in-text attribution. "Fact" or "opinion" has nothing to do with our sourcing requirements. Crum375 (talk) 21:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Fact" or "opinion" has nothing to do with our sourcing requirements but at chiropractic unttributed controversial opinion is a fact as long as it is sourced. Editors at chiropractic think attributable to the source meets ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 21:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is still the presentation issue, nothing else. The Guild of Chiropractors says that chiropracty can cure...asthma, or erectile dysfunction, or something. There's been a recent court case over someone criticising them for it. If someone puts in the article "chiropracty can cure asthma" and sources to the GoC, that is a fail on so many levels that it in no way requires your alleged policy to deal with it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:59, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) The confusion stems from "meeting ASF" which is a confusing jumble of words. You need to meet WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, and WP:BLP if there are living persons involved. If somebody says X, and X is controversial and challenged, it should be first decided if X meets WP:V and WP:SOURCES. If so, it should then be tested for WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV. If it passes these tests, but it's still controversial, it should be presented via in-text attribution, properly balanced with any notable conflicting views. The mainstream view should always be presented most prominently. Crum375 (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The edit summary says it's attributed. It's attributed to the chiropractic source, Chapman-Smith. Don't you know who he is? He's the next-to-the-top dog in the profession. It's his statement.

An unattributed controversial opinion is a fact as long as it is sourced? Editors at chiropractic think it is attributed in accordance with WP:ASF and deleting notable conflicting views is WP:NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 22:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sound of head thumping on desk. You don't need this mythical ASF to deal with a situation where editors are deleting notable conflicting views. The whole thrust of the bloody NPOV policy is that you DONT delete notable conflicting views. It doesn't matter how they want to say it, if there is a notable alternative view, the article has to reflect it. I think you are just confusing the matter. If Chapman Smith has said that chiropractors can raise the dead, and the General Medical Council has said that they can't, then WP:NPOV is clear that the article has to find some way of representing both positions.Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Elen says, and WP:UNDUE has to be met too. Crum375 (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So what do I do now when an editor claims an unattributed controversial opinion can be asserted as fact as long as it is attributed to the source and thinks the lead does not have to present notable conflicting views. QuackGuru (talk) 22:46, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Start at WP:NPOVN which is specifically for reporting NPOV issues. If he's edit warring to maintain his version, you could report him for it. You could start an RfC. Or try WP:FTN if the view he is promoting is at all fringe. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:54, 22 April 2010 (UTC) [reply]

I would like a RFC started at Talk:Chiropractic#Neutral point of view. QuackGuru (talk) 23:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait a minute...the guy you're wrangling with is Brangifer? Believe me, he is NOT going to be letting anyone get away with asserting opinion as fact. In fact, having looked at the argument on the talkpage, you seem to be doing what you're doing here - using English in a very peculiar way so nobody can work out what on earth you are saying. Also, you are editing with a tremendous POV of your own. Can I just say "get outta here" and recommend that you stop trying to rewrite this page to support your own confused position.Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:19, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)Crum375 seems to have a clear and consistent understanding of Wikipedia policy, and frankly, i do not understand many of the comments others have made. Above, Zaereth (who I am sure has made countless good edits to the encyclopedia) wrote, "A fact is information that can be verified or documented. It is known to be true. On the other hand, opinions are personal beliefs, views, or judgements." This is simply not true. Yes, facts can be verified. But so can opinions. It is verifiable that Ronald Reagan thought the Soviet Union evil. It is verifiable that George Bush thought Iran, Iraq, and North Korea evil. The distinction is not between one thing that can be verified and one thing that cannot be verified, the difference is between something that may verifiably be claimed by only one person, and another thing that is claimed by all members of the AAAS, and another thing that is claimed by all human beings.
Above, Quack pushes the following absurd policy: "In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source regardless if it is a truthful statement." This is not our policy, and if you think it is fixing something, I tell you, it is not broken. According to our Vpolicy, all views in Wikipedia must be verifiable - not verified, but verifiable or as Crum correctly put it, "attributable." Now, which views actually must be verivied? Controversial ones. Controversial where? Well, on the article talk page. The only practical way forward is if we take the people participating on the talk page to represent a community of people with overlapping intrerests and knowledge. If there is something NONE of them consider controversial, it will naturally be added to or remain in the article without a citation. it has to be possible to find a citation, but no one has to. One day someone comes and deltes something saying it is wrong. Yes, they can even delete the sentence, Plato was a philosopher. Suddenly it is controversial. Well, now you have to provide a citation (if it is so obvious, it should be very easy to find a reliable source). If the new editor still claims Plato was not a philosopher, you don't say "Go away!" You follow our policy: ask that person to present a reliable source. If she does, we rewrite the article, to include both (even though they contradict) views: Some say Plato was a philosopher (lots of cites), some say he was not (some cites) or whatever. Thi sis how it works and Quack's proposed policy only takes a clear an dsimple to follow rule and turns it into something that will promote confusion and conflict.
There is no policy on facts and opinions. There is an NPOV policy and this paragraph was added to try to explain it. Whoever wrote it did not do a great job, thus all the wasted electrons here. Delete it, revise it, but let's stick to our actual policies, NPOV and V: verifiability, not truth, and all significant views from reliable sources go in. These are principles all can follow. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Applauds! There is no need for this ASF. There is a need to emphasise that articles must present a rounded picture, not just one aspect, not only the view of one nation, not an entrenched view etc etc Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 23:23, 22 April 2010 edit Slrubenstein (talk \| contribs) 30,655 edits →‎Verifiability supercedes fact and opinions ← Previous edit		Revision as of 23:28, 22 April 2010 edit undo Elen of the Roads (talk \| contribs) 16,638 edits →‎Verifiability supercedes fact and opinions: hurrah Next edit →
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	There is no policy on facts and opinions. There is an NPOV policy and this paragraph was added to try to explain it. Whoever wrote it did not do a great job, thus all the wasted electrons here. Delete it, revise it, but let's stick to our actual policies, NPOV and V: verifiability, not truth, and all significant views from reliable sources go in. These are principles all can follow. [[User:Slrubenstein\|Slrubenstein]] \| [[User talk:Slrubenstein\|Talk]] 23:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)		There is no policy on facts and opinions. There is an NPOV policy and this paragraph was added to try to explain it. Whoever wrote it did not do a great job, thus all the wasted electrons here. Delete it, revise it, but let's stick to our actual policies, NPOV and V: verifiability, not truth, and all significant views from reliable sources go in. These are principles all can follow. [[User:Slrubenstein\|Slrubenstein]] \| [[User talk:Slrubenstein\|Talk]] 23:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

			:Applauds! There is no need for this ASF. There is a need to emphasise that articles must present a rounded picture, not just one aspect, not only the view of one nation, not an entrenched view etc etc [[User:Elen of the Roads\|Elen of the Roads]] ([[User talk:Elen of the Roads\|talk]]) 23:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)