Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources: Difference between revisions
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== The origin of Memes and citing Knowyourmeme == |
== The origin of Memes and citing Knowyourmeme == |
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I don't know how any more accurate evidence can be found on topics this obscure, or are we simply to wait until a publication decides to talk about it ( and often get it wrong ). Especially because contextually there isn't a better site. This has led to inaccuracies on other pages. There is a good context for referencing such sites. |
I don't know how any more accurate evidence can be found on topics this obscure, or are we simply to wait until a publication decides to talk about it ( and often get it wrong ). Especially because contextually there isn't a better site. This has led to inaccuracies on other pages. There is a good context for referencing such sites.[[User:CantingCrew|CantingCrew]] ([[User talk:CantingCrew|talk]]) 15:27, 15 July 2020 (UTC)CantingCrew |
Revision as of 15:27, 15 July 2020
Discuss sources on the reliable sources noticeboard To discuss the reliability of a source, please start or join a discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard (WP:RSN). Discussions on the noticeboard will be added to this list. This talk page is for discussing the maintenance of the list itself, and arguments posted here will not be taken into consideration. |
Controversially classified sources Fox News (RSP entry) and the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) (RSP entry) are the most controversially classified sources in this list. The most recent Fox News RfC is from 2010, and there has never been an RfC for the SPLC. If you disagree with the classifications of these sources, please start an RfC (request for comment) on the reliable sources noticeboard to determine the current consensus instead of directly editing your preferred classification into the list. If you are unfamiliar with RfCs, please ask here, and other editors will be glad to assist. |
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Global Times
Is the now closed discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 294#Global Times specific enough for us to change what we say for the Global Times? It appears to be the only discussion we’ve had on the Global Times specifically since 2014 (the 2019 discussion was a combined discussion of six sources and it was noted that among them GT was the least reliable) and consensus is clear but participation was light.Horse Eye Jack (talk) 23:36, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
- I probably wouldn't as yet - generally speaking, I don't think there should be a rush to list things here unless consensus is clearly overwhelming. There's a vexed and ongoing argument about just how independent various state-owned media are and where they therefore go on the reliability scale - David Gerard (talk) 09:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- The Global Times is already listed here. They also aren’t one of the edge cases we’re concerned about with state-owned media, these guys are worse than RT. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think more participation would be helpful here, probably in the form of an RfC. — Newslinger talk 02:37, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- The Global Times is already listed here. They also aren’t one of the edge cases we’re concerned about with state-owned media, these guys are worse than RT. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Can add CGTN and SCMP to the discussion as well. NoNews! 06:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- CGTN yes but not SCMP... SCMP is editorially independent of the Chinese government and located in HK. CGTN and Global Times are similarly unreliable state mouthpieces. SCMP is generally reliable. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Can add CGTN and SCMP to the discussion as well. NoNews! 06:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Questioning reliability
Although I have been around for four years, this page was brought to my attention by User:Philip Cross. I admit I am wet behind the ears. Whose brain-fart was it to ram all of the western corporate media into the reliable pile and all detractors such as RT/Press TV in the "unreliable" pile? --Coldtrack (talk) 21:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
All right. Question 1 - how does alleged "independence of editorial judgement or ability to think or write freely" mean that those who possess this can be "relied upon". Surely the ability to "write or think freely" would give one the freedom to tell lies, right? If not - what stops him? Similarly question 2 - if a news network happens to report a certain government's position, how does this mean that the source is "unreliable"? Is someone claiming that it is impossible for a government to be right? In particular, a government not favourable to the west. Question 3 - who demonstrated that Russian media promotes so-called "falsehoods" and so-called "conspiracy theories". Question 4 - what the hell does anyone mean "egregious western corporatists (Breitbart, The Sun, The Mail, et al.", this bundle says NOTHING that the so-called "reliable" sources don't regurgitate san evidence. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Grandpallama - The "answer to the question" I have been provided does not cut the mustard. The mantra that is being regurgitated over and over (ie. CNN and the BBC are so-called "independent" news organizations. PressTV and RT are "state propaganda" et al) is a distinction without a difference. I responded to that here[2], and to date nobody has demonstrated even one fraction why one is reliable and the other isn't. To be honest, any fair-minded observer is able to see that the so-called "reliability criteria" is framed specifically to single out the sources which please the architects of this project. You would really have to think that the reader is stupid if one is "independent" when he writes for Rupert Murdoch, or that the BBC is "reliable" while Press TV is "unreliable" on the so-called "rectitudes" of the White Helmets or the so-called "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" when the BBC make no secret of the fact that what they report from Syria adduces those two headsprings. In other words, the "unreliable" sources call them terrorists, and the "reliable" cartel present them as the "cuddly band of non-dangerous fanatics dedicated to saving lives". Result: The White Helmets are good people and not bad, because they say they are. Circular reasoning (see begging the question). As regards where I saw that the majority in the west don't trust their media may have been from a corporate source ultimately, and I think it was, but I spotted it on Twitter a month or so ago. When I find it, I'll post it to your talk. If it were acknowledged on RT it would more likely have been on an op-ed (you know, the ones who write what THEY want and not what the Kremlin tells them) and would likely have been an acknowledgement more than a leading news headline. But then what would it matter if it were RT when nobody has ever provided me with a reason to disbelieve them. --Coldtrack (talk) 18:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
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Should the entry for Vox have a disclaimer along the lines of Some editors say that Vox is a partisan source in the field of politics, and that their statements in this field should also be attributed
? Our article on Vox does note Vox is a liberal-leaning American news and opinion website
also the last substantial discussion about it here made mention of it as well. PackMecEng (talk) 15:45, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- How do they identify their opinion articles? I'm not finding any with a quick skim. --Hipal/Ronz (talk) 16:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- That is a good question actually, it does not appear to be clearly marked. Only thing I have found so far is this article which says “First Person” or “The Big Idea” are opinion sections. PackMecEng (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've added
Some editors say that Vox is a partisan source in the field of politics
to the list. This part of PackMegEng's proposed addition is not controversial, having been noted in previous RSN discussions. Whether the latter part, regarding their opinion pieces, should be added as well, can continue to be discussed here. feminist | freedom isn't free 03:01, 9 June 2020 (UTC)- That covers the main part of concern. The other part I more or less copied from other entries and do not have overly strong feelings about. Thanks for making the change! PackMecEng (talk) 03:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- I've added
- That is a good question actually, it does not appear to be clearly marked. Only thing I have found so far is this article which says “First Person” or “The Big Idea” are opinion sections. PackMecEng (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Чому в списке только российские сайты и нет ни одного украинского, нет "радио свободы"? Пфе. Ya unikum (talk) 19:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- DeepL translates the above statement as:
Why are there only Russian sites on the list and no Ukrainian sites, no "radio freedom"? Pfft.
- Hi Ya unikum, the very first source on the list, 112 Ukraine (RSP entry), is a Ukrainian source that is both blacklisted and deprecated. If there are any other sources that you would like to have the community evaluate, feel free to start a new discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard. — Newslinger talk 01:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Encyclopedia Britannica
The section about public contributions is quite out of date: they haven't allowed that for over a decade. (Saying that as someone who contributed three articles, and was in the process of writing another when they shut the process down.) -- Zanimum (talk) 02:34, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Since no past discussions have mentioned that the Encyclopædia Britannica Online stopped accepting content submissions from the public, you'll want to start a new discussion about this matter on the reliable sources noticeboard. I see that there is a currently active discussion, so I recommend creating a new subsection at the end of that discussion. — Newslinger talk 02:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Done. The discussion was archived at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 298 § Encyclopedia Britannica, and I've updated the entry. Please feel free to make further adjustments as you see fit. — Newslinger talk 00:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Examiner.com
This site is defunct, and is now a redirect to AXS. Are we keeping it on the list in case someone digs through the Wayback Machine? -- Zanimum (talk) 02:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, and also to serve as a data point for what is blacklisted and designated generally unreliable. — Newslinger talk 02:46, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
WikiTree
Dear colleagues,
I was consulting the list to find out the status of WikiTree as a source for genealogical information, but it is currently not included in the list. Before I start a discussion about it on the noticeboard, does anyone have experience in using it in an article, or of its suitability for biographies of old-time performers (i.e., not WP:BLP)? Thank you very much in advance.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 15:10, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
PS: On taking a closer look, it appears to be an aggregator of FamilySearch and Findmypast, which are deemed generally unreliable; so, this suggests WikiTree would most likely share that status too.
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 15:30, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Pdebee, I think you're absolutely right. In addition to FamilySearch (RSP entry) and Findmypast (RSP entry), WikiTree looks similar to Ancestry.com (RSP entry) and Geni.com (RSP entry), all of which are considered generally unreliable due to lack of editorial oversight. — Newslinger talk 04:46, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The Times
Given that The Times is only second to The Daily Mail when it comes to upheld complaints by IPSO should it still be considered a reliable source? 80.47.137.128 (talk) 01:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi there, this list only tracks discussions on the reliable sources noticeboard. Other information, including metrics from regulatory organizations, do not directly affect this list. However, if you would like to start a new discussion on The Times, feel free to do so on the noticeboard, where you can bring up the IPSO complaints. Judging from past discussions, I don't think most editors treat IPSO complaints as a major factor in their reliability evaluations. — Newslinger talk 04:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Question on list creation
Hello everyone, I would like if someone who is familiar with the creation of this list could tell me whether it would make sense to create a similar but separate list for sources in Serbo-Croatian language, that are often and in large numbers used under the Balkan scope? Perhaps, at some point, this could be extended to the whole of Eastern Europe and the languages in use there, however, in both versions the geographically scope should be probably defined, beside lang, in line with ARBMAC / ARBEE. Thanks.--౪ Santa ౪99° 17:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Santasa99:, what methodology were you thinking of using for building the list? If you're just planning on writing it using your own opinions, there isn't much stopping you from just starting your own list, with the caveat being that its authority will be only as strong as your own personal arguments. If you're planning on building the list based on the consensuses of archived discussions, then WP:NPPSG may be a good place to log the assessments if the consensuses aren't strong enough to list here. signed, Rosguill talk 17:40, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Of course not, it would defeat the purpose to build something on your own - I was thinking, using the same methodology as with creation of existing Perennial sources list, although I have to admit I was pretty assured that simply following ongoing and registering previous discussions and results in individual RSN's would be only appropriate way - I mean, isn't the Perennial sources list created by simply registering results of the most recent RSN discussion outcomes ?--౪ Santa ౪99° 18:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- In that case, I'd suggest that we use WP:NPPSG for this (I'm effectively already doing that, although other than a few Albanian sources there's been little discussion about the Balkans on RSN since I've started). The difference between that list and RSP (other than the sorting) is that NPPSG has a lower bar for inclusion than RSP. RSP documents discussions that are truly perennial, or that at least have been thoroughly discussed in an RfC, whereas NPPSG documents any reliability discussion that includes a general reliability assessment. The name NPPSG is honestly a bit of a misnomer at this point but I've been lazy about renaming it. signed, Rosguill talk 20:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Of course not, it would defeat the purpose to build something on your own - I was thinking, using the same methodology as with creation of existing Perennial sources list, although I have to admit I was pretty assured that simply following ongoing and registering previous discussions and results in individual RSN's would be only appropriate way - I mean, isn't the Perennial sources list created by simply registering results of the most recent RSN discussion outcomes ?--౪ Santa ౪99° 18:25, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
- Some WikiProjects have assembled source lists that are focused on specific topic or geographical areas. See WP:RSP § Topic-specific pages for a list. If you would like to create a list, I recommend doing so under a relevant WikiProject so that it gets seen by more editors who would find it helpful. The methodology to use for this list would be up to you. Some of these topic-specific lists include more discussions from talk pages covered under the related WikiProject in addition to discussions from the reliable sources noticeboard. However, I'm not sure which WikiProject to place this under, since WikiProject Eastern Europe is inactive.
Rosguill's recommendation to use WP:NPPSG is a good idea, since it has sections for geographical areas and would be used by new page patrollers in addition to editors interested in the topic area. Regardless of whether you choose to create a separate list, adding entries to WP:NPPSG would ensure that they get seen and are made use of by more editors. — Newslinger talk 04:32, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
PinkNews as a reliable source
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#PinkNews. It's a reassessment matter. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- Given the way the discussion has evolved, do you think it would be a good idea to convert it into a formal RfC? Armadillopteryxtalk 02:57, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Reliability of the ADL?
Should this be considered the same as Hope Not Hate? CantingCrew (talk) 15:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)CantingCrew
The origin of Memes and citing Knowyourmeme
I don't know how any more accurate evidence can be found on topics this obscure, or are we simply to wait until a publication decides to talk about it ( and often get it wrong ). Especially because contextually there isn't a better site. This has led to inaccuracies on other pages. There is a good context for referencing such sites.CantingCrew (talk) 15:27, 15 July 2020 (UTC)CantingCrew