Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used

Starting an article for 'Pep' album by Lights

Hi, I've been meaning to start an article for the album PEP by Lights. i have a very basic outline of it on my sandbox (just the section names and an album infobox) but i need some help. can i post it here? or should i create it as a draft? Melodies1917 (talk) 18:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

It's up to you, but if you just link to your sandbox or draft of info here, people can check it out. Sergecross73 msg me 19:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, creating it as a draft would probably be the best idea, because it will definitely pass WP:NALBUM... there are enough reviews from reliable sources: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Richard3120 (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

thank you! here it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Melodies1917/sandbox . i will start a draft too. but welcome feedback here before i do. Melodies1917 (talk) 18:47, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

@Sergecross73 and Richard3120: So i went to start the draft and this one came up, it was started in July by Poppstar. i added Wikiproject tags and the Reception section. it looks good to me, feel free to check it out. hopefully it will be approved soon. Melodies1917 (talk) 15:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

@Melodies1917: I made some minor changes, mainly to clarify the part talking about the "aforementioned comic" as it wasn't clear, stylization, and MOS:LQ... on Wikipedia inverted commas for the title come before the comma, which I know isn't normal in US English, but always looks hella weird to me as a Brit... I mean, the comma isn't part of the title so why does it go inside quotation marks? Anyway, you could also add the three reviews I've linked to above, which would definitely establish the album's notability. Richard3120 (talk) 18:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Stylisation/discrepancy in titling, and natural disambiguation

Drawing attention to the move request at Talk:Outside (David Bowie album)#Requested move 2 September 2022 (proposed move to 1. Outside), which could have ramifications in other places across the project. Cf WP:NATURAL. U-Mos (talk) 23:09, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Peer review request for Missundaztood

Hi there! I have opened a peer review for Missundaztood, article that had already passed a GA review and received a CE, in hopes to take it to FAC. The review has been open for some time, but with no comments. So I'm asking here if anyone would be willing to take a look and give their feedback on the article. I'd be very grateful. – TabooMatters94 (talk) 12:33, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:The Woman I've Become (EP)#Requested move 5 September 2022

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:The Woman I've Become (EP)#Requested move 5 September 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 15:22, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of Songs I Wrote with Amy for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Songs I Wrote with Amy is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Songs I Wrote with Amy until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

QuietHere (talk) 23:13, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Forbes question

Hey all. I got this Forbes article here that was written by a contributor (not staff) so that would mean it's unreliable per WP:NOTRSMUSIC. However, on the contributor's page, David Chui states he has written for Rolling Stone, The New York Times, Newsweek, Billboard, Pitchfork, Time Out New York, Paste, The Quietus, along others, which are all viewed here as reliable. So would this Forbes article from him be reliable then if he has written for a slew of established publications? Thanks. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 19:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Can you not use the 33 1/3 book? Those are full of typos, but are generally respected as RS. Or did you need something from this specific article? Caro7200 (talk) 19:28, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I have been using that but I wanted a source that talks about it specifically. I got a PopMatters article but I was just wondering if the Forbes one would work too. If not the PM one will do. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 19:31, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Shout at the Devil cover art

​ Is anyone from WP:ALBUM able to determine whether the alternative cover art for the album Shout at the Devil was also the cover art for the single "Shout at the Devil (song)"? A user named Ytzesza keeps trying to add File:ShoutattheDevilCD2.jpg to main infobox about the song, but keeps getting reverted by a bot. The bot's removing of the file is being done because no non-free use rationale is provided for the single's article (see User talk:JJMC89#bot won’t stop removing images for more on that), and this is a fairly simple fix as long as the single's cover art is the same. The song is from 1983, so I'm not sure how to verify that the single actually used that cover art; so, I thought I'd ask about this here at WT:ALBUM. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: Since the song was never released as a single, I think it does not have cover art. --Muhandes (talk) 22:23, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

There was a demo single which was released in 2008 according to RateYourMusic. Gonna need another source for that date but at least we know there's a single that exists. Perhaps that's what Ytzesza is basing their addition on. QuietHere (talk) 22:40, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Marchjuly @Muhandes According to iTunes, that cover was used for the digital release of the Demo Version of the song. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 22:41, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

You got me there. --Muhandes (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd have to ask if the song was notable enough for a separate article anyway – most of what the article says is either unsourced or already included in the album's article, and I don't think a minor placing on a Billboard chart is enough to pass WP:NSONG. Richard3120 (talk) 19:58, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Is Apple Music a reliable source?

Hello. I have noticed that there were genres that were covered by references sourced from Apple Music or iTunes for that matter. Does that count as a reliable source, or is it user-generated or a primary source? HorrorLover555 (talk) 15:58, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

No, retail/database listings are almost always not used for things like genre. Apple Music would fall into that category as well. Sergecross73 msg me 16:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

redirect question

I should probably know this, but ... if a redirect for an album title simply exists as a redirect to a band article (just a redirect; there was never any prose), can I "adopt" that redirect for an article about a different album? For example, I'm considering an article for Good Company, by Nat Adderley. Good Company exists as a redirect to the band the Dead South.

Similarly, I started an article for Bringin' It All Back Home (Johnny Copeland album); a redirect already existed for the almost-identical Dylan album. I left that, as the Dylan album will attract 1,000X the number of eyes, but wasn't sure if that actually conforms to policy. Thanks. Caro7200 (talk) 16:00, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I do this sometimes, on the reasoning that, if it doesn't even have its own article, it's probably not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. There are some examples where that's not true (Murica (album) is still there despite Murica being a redirect) but generally it checks out. Sergecross73 msg me 16:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that makes sense to me as well – no point keeping the redirect for an album article that looks like it will never exist, you could just add a hatnote to the top of the Nat Adderley album article, "for the Dead South album, see the Dead South", and that should cover all bases for now. I guess the Johnny Copeland album may not need the disambiguation because of the one letter difference, but I think you did right to add the disambiguator, it can always be discussed for renaming at a later date. Richard3120 (talk) 18:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Based on this I started a move request for the Johnny Copeland album. No clue if it'll stick or not but worth a try.

And on topic, I'll back up what Serge and Richard said. I've done the same before myself at "High Plains Drifter", formerly a redirect based on a Beastie Boys song but now an article for a notable Kirk Hammett single with a hatnote. Notability takes priority for article titles so if you've got a more notable subject for a given title then you should be fine to usurp it, especially if it's a redirect. And if in doubt, you can make the article under a disambiguated title (like you did with the Johnny Copeland) and request a move after, and let consensus decide which goes where. QuietHere (talk) 23:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Genius.com year-end lists and length of Critics list tables in Reception/Accolades sections

Can someone tell me whether Genius's year-end lists are worth including in the tables under Critical reception or Accolades sections? I came across them on a handful of kpop song/album articles and removed them from one page, but would like to be sure before I erroneously start mass-removing. So far, all mentions are sourced directly from either Genius's Kor website or twitter. Also, "Love It If We Made It" has one of the longest Accolades tables I've ever seen on Wikipedia, in addition to also having Genius in its table. I'm pretty sure I recall a recentish discussion that concluded only 10 lists max, or something along those lines, should be in a table. Has that since been walked-back? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 06:56, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

So far as I'm aware the 10-limit for accolades tables is still consensus-approved. It certainly should be, at least in my opinion. And I hope it stays in consensus 'cause that table is ridiculous and needs a huge amount of trimming. Might be able to save some entries by separating year- and decade-end lists but otherwise I can't imagine we're in too much need for the lists from 411Mania, the Diamondback, or Vectis Radio, just as examples.

As for Genius, I think that goes back to the larger question of their editorial section's general reliability which I do believe has come up before but I'm not sure what conclusion, if any, was drawn from that. I would say that, if it is indeed reliable, then there's probably no problem including those lists, though I certainly wouldn't prioritise them over better-established publications if those are available. QuietHere (talk) 09:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Genius.com is reliable for interviews etc but cannot be used to source tracklistings or anything like that as the latter is user generated like discogs. I think there are other/better sources for critics lists and the ten-limit for lists still applies. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 12:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

To clarify, when I say "editorial section" that is excluding the lyrics pages and other clearly USERG content of the site, and specifically referring to news articles (such as this one) which are visible on their front page. That article is credited to a staff member (there's a visible "staff" on their profile). I believe there's also a page with all the editors listed but I can't find it right now. It's clear to me they're taking the news business seriously and that may be valuable to us so that's what I'm concerned about regarding their potential reliability. QuietHere (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

This is the Critical reception section for one of the k-pop articles in question. The Genius Korea list is this one, though the tweet calls it a "chart". It's not a Critics list of any kind and tbh I don't see why it is worth including. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 21:14, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Based on that tweet, I don't either – it doesn't tell us what it is a top ten of... Genius critics' opinions? Most downloaded tracks? Most viewed song lyrics on Genius? You can't say it belongs in a year-end list without knowing if it's a critics' list or not. Richard3120 (talk) 22:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Regarding "Love It If We Made It", the overall Guardian ranking is there, we don't need the ranking of each of the individual Guardian journalists as well... similar to WP:USCHARTS, they're already subcomponents of the main chart, as it were. Richard3120 (talk) 22:48, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge (i.e. Twt/Google searches), the list/"chart" pertains to the songs with the most-viewed lyrics by users on the site for the year. I went ahead and removed it. Wrt to the LIIWMI table, I hadn't checked the Genius ref to see if it was written by staff when I made my post, so if it's acceptable then cool. I can't trim the list myself because I'm only familiar with a handful of those publications, but now that it's been brought to the Project's attention I'm sure one/some of the more knowledgeable editors will take care of it. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 23:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Carlobunnie – if that's the case, I personally wouldn't consider "fourth-most viewed lyrics on the Genius website" as an accolade worthy of mention either. Richard3120 (talk) 23:37, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Country Universe

I'm reviewing Ty Herndon for GA and would like to get feedback on the reliability of countryuniverse.net. Their about page gives staff bios; the particular review in question is here, by Kevin John Coyne. His bio says he's an educator. Pinging TenPoundHammer, the nominator. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:59, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• Country Universe has been accepted in previous GAs such as Pam Tillis. The site has credited editors (it's my understanding that both Coyne and former Slant Magazine writer Jonathan Keefe are editors), and other contributors such as Alanna Conaway have contributed to reliable sources like Billboard and Country Weekly. For these reasons, Country Universe has been accepted in the past when citing reviews. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 23:05, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
• Pinging @Caldorwards4:, @Jax 0677:, @Martin4647:, @Hog Farm:, @ChrisTofu11961:, @Kaleeb18:. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 23:19, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

  It's good they have an established staff and writers who are professional writers...though many of the outlets they mention (outside of Slant) I've never heard of, so it's hard to see if they've written for other RS for me personally. Sergecross73 msg me 23:25, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

  Roughstock has been accepted in the past (including apparently this very GA) due to the site having a credited editor (Matt Bjorke) and regular writing staff. Engine 145 and The 9513, though both defunct, were also considered reputable due to having editors and a regular writing team. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 23:37, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

  I accepted Roughstock because their staff page implies these are full time professional positions. I also see here that they are part of Cherimedia, which is owned by Warner Music Group. Some sort of corporate ownership structure for Country would help, but for me the main problem is that the bio for Coyne says his full time job is not writer or editor, so he's apparently a fan, which means either the platform he's on needs to show there is editorial control or he himself needs to have good writing credits elsewhere. I agree that reviews by Keefe on Country Universe would be OK -- you found this evidence of Keefe's work as a journalist. But Country Universe describes itself as a blog, not as a magazine. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:39, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  Coyne is credited as editor in some individual pieces on CU. I thought having a credited editor and regular writing staff were enough? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 17:07, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  If this were magazine format and he was either a permanent employee or a professional journalist, yes, that would be enough. But it says it's a blog, and it says he's not a journalist, so it looks to me as if this is a group of like minded people some of who are professional and some of whom aren't, who run a blog because they like doing so. For the professionals I'm OK with it as a reliable source; for non-professionals I don't see how it can be treated as one. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Country Universe is written by professional writers, some of which have degrees in journalism and experience with staff writing. It might be a blog format but it does not operate like a traditional blog. ChrisTofu11961 (talk) 21:59, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Willow Smith album discussion

There's a discussion on what to do with Willow Smith's album Coping Mechanism (album) happening here. Input would be appreciated. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 17:33, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Rock 'n Load

I've always been suspicious of this site but haven't bothered to raise those suspicions 'til now since it's mostly been a non-issue, but at this point I think it's better to ask just to clear the air. I'm not the first to say anything (see here) but nothing came of that brief discussion and I haven't seen anything else on the subject. The site is in use on 202 pages currently.

Their articles about album announcements (e.g.) have always given me the vibe of glorified ad copy. I clicked through a couple dozen reviews only to see "Page not found" every time, and those are links from their own directory which I take as an especially bad sign. The one review I could get access to doesn't list a writer, consists of just a few short paragraphs, and then quickly transitions into more ad copy. One of the paragraphs in the review even starts talking about how you just have to see this band live which has nothing to do with the album and sounds like something I'd love to see written about my band if my record label had paid that website to write about me. Oh, and for a fun added bonus, the band's article cites Rock 'n Load for its album announcement which, and try to be shocked by this one, is another "Page not found".

I've seen no staff page, no bylines, none of the usual signifiers of a reliable source. They present themselves like one in style, but in substance this feels much closer to Shore Fire Media than anything on WP:RSMUSIC. In fact, this feels like a shoo-in for a WP:NOTRSMUSIC listing to me. Thoughts? QuietHere (talk) 16:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

My experience has been similar. I've come across it in the past when source-hunting for various rock music related articles. I've never done a deep dive, but I've generally try to avoid it, as it gives off real "amateur fan blog" vibes. I've never bothered bringing it up here because I don't tend to see it be added to article's I watch over, but its used in hundreds of pages, then I agree its good to review it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:59, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Coin Coin Chapter Three: River Run Thee

This editor thinks adding Anthony Fantano is an reliable source ignoring the fact there was four discussions back in 2014, 2017, 2017 (2), and 2021, respectively, regarding this person. Keep in mind that the article is currently being reviewed for good article status. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 17:37, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

In the 2021 RfC, the rough consensus was that "Fantano is considered to be an established subject-matter expert as it pertains to music reviews and that that these reviews may be used in an article as attributed opinion". I used Fantano in the article only in the critical reception section as an attributed opinion. You yourself voted "yes" in that RfC, writing "Anthony Fantano is a well-known music critic and his reviews should not be ignored". Whether or not you changed your mind, the previous consensus reached in that RfC is not moot. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:41, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

TheAmazingPeanuts has removed the source 3 times, and told me in an edit summary to "Stop ignoring the past discussions at WP:ALBUMAVOID". Unusually, they are not responding to my points; I'm just following what the consensus is listed at on WP:RSP per the RfC. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:44, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

@PerfectSoundWhatever: My mind have changed since then. Anthony Fantano's reviews still needs to be supported by a third-party source not YouTube, which is also an unreliable source (see WP:USERG). TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 17:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Requiring a third-party source is not what the RfC resulted with. Your personal opinion does not outweigh consensus. Edit warring over this is silly when the precedent is clear-cut. Pinging (GA reviewer) @Shaidar cuebiyar: since they are the only other editor to have spent time with this article, and they may have an opinion on the matter to help reach consensus. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 17:52, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

@PerfectSoundWhatever: I have reverted my edit but my point still stands. Anthony Fantano is still considered as an unreliable source by WP:ALBUMAVOID. Why are we giving this article a pass? TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 18:00, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Fantano's entry in WP:ALBUMAVOID does not consider Fantano unreliable. I've already linked to the RfC, RSP, and quoted it twice, so this is beginning to feel like WP:ICANTHEARYOU. I will not reply further since I've already stated my points. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 18:12, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

@TheAmazingPeanuts PSW is correct about the language of those past RfCs which are also reflected in the Fantano WP:RSMUSIC entry, and you've apparently already run into the WP:3RR wall so if you really think that consensus is wrong then you're gonna have to make your case in another RfC (can't wait for another month full of that). QuietHere (talk) 21:32, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

@PerfectSoundWhatever and TheAmazingPeanuts: I was pinged to provide my opinion on TheNeedleDrop/Fantano's usage in Coin Coin Chapter Three: River Run Thee, since I am currently reviewing the article for GA status. I was unaware of the contentious nature of that source and have not read all of the various discussions by editors about it. What I have read, however, leads me to accept this source's usage for "review only" purposes in this article and to be cited sparingly, at that. I make no determination on the source's validity for other WP articles. I thank both editors for their various opinions above and elsewhere on this matter you are both to be applauded.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:37, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Reminding editors that they need to be following WP:BRD regardless. Stop reverting. Sergecross73 msg me 21:54, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep, I agree, was not planning on reverting past twice. Peanuts has now self-reverted so hopefully the dispute is resolved. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 22:04, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I have started a RfC at the article's talk page. Sorry for reverting. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 22:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

First week sales question

I came across a website of Elliot Wolff’s regarding Paula Abdul’s third studio album Head over Heels stating the album — “peaked at number 18 on the Billboard 200 and sold less than 200,000 copies”. Now I’m wondering if this means first week sales in the US? I’m guessing it seems rather high for an album released in 1995. Or I’m assuming it means worldwide first week sales? Or if it even is referring to first week sales at all? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. [5] Pillowdelight (talk) 20:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I would imagine that's total sales of the album in the US, from 1995 to the present date. In any case, it isn't clear and the source isn't reliable. Richard3120 (talk) 20:40, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

@Pillowdelight: just to expand on that, I've looked up the issue of Billboard for the week that Head over Heels entered the Billboard 200 (July 1, 1995). On page 120 of that issue, it says the no. 1 and no. 2 albums that week sold 170,000 and just under 150,000 copies, respectively. So no, Head over Heels definitely didn't sell 200,000 in its first week... if I had to guess, I'd say its first-week sales were around 20,000, but of course this is total original research on my part. I'm pretty convinced that my original guess above is correct, <200,000 refers to the total number of copies sold in the US in the 27 years since its release. Richard3120 (talk) 02:09, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughts @Richard3120: as I’ve been looking for a while now on the albums first week sales and this was the only one I came across regarding sales. I don’t know if I would say it sold 20,000 first week though haha, I came across CrazySexyCool page on here although it was released in 1994 it debuted at number 15 with first week sales of 77,500. So I’m assuming Head over Heels most likely debuted with 50,000-75,000. But obviously this is an educated guess. Pillowdelight (talk) 03:03, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

You may well be right, I'm no expert on the US charts. I do know the album sold well below expectations. It may have a gold certification for 500,000 shipments, but that doesn't necessarily mean 500,000 sales... it's likely that her record company sent out half a million copies to record stores, confidently expecting a repeat of the multi-platinum success of her first two albums, and 300,000 copies were left unsold in the shops. Richard3120 (talk) 12:28, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Project page for sources mischaracterizes a Wikipedia guideline

​ This statement on Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources is misleading and should be changed:

Per Wikipedia's guideline on user-generated sources, websites with user-generated content should never be used as sources since they have little or no editorial oversight.

This is not what the indicated guideline says. At least two possible remedies would be appropriate to address this issue:

1. Change the statement to reflect what the guideline actually says: user-generated sources are generally unacceptable (emphasis added) rather than that they "never be used" OR
2. Properly attribute this guidance to wherever the stricter "never be used" guidance actually comes from: presumably a local consensus documented somewhere as part of this project.

As the statement reads now it inaccurately attributes the "never be used" guidance to a Wikipedia guideline. Not only does it mischaracterize the guideline, the choice of the word "never" directly conflicts with the fifth pillar of Wikipedia's fundamental principles. 13:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC) --N8_wilson 🔔 13:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I thought "generally unacceptable" was too soft, and would lead to people to always argue their suggested source be the exception. I don't particularly know the scenario where we allow straight up USERG content, but if that's the wording USERG itself uses, then I guess I have no grounds to object. Sergecross73 msg me 14:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Gonna second the "too soft" here, but personally this seems more like the language at USERG might need adjusting rather than here. Has there been a strong consensus formed around that specific phrasing? If not, perhaps one of us here should start an AfC about it. QuietHere (talk) 15:13, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Didn't find any previous discussion on it so I went ahead and started one myself. QuietHere (talk) 15:22, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I commented there too. I'm interested to see if we're not thinking of something, or if it's something that could use altering. I don't particularly believe 5P is keeping us from talking in absolutes.There's wording like "never" or flat out "do not" present in things like WP:BLPSPS or WP:NLT, for example. Sergecross73 msg me 15:30, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes - even 5P5 is not a firm rule and has exceptions to itself. BLP and NLT are examples where absolutes are necessary and helpful but the spirit of 5P5 is to keep us from making hard and fast rules where they are not beneficial to the goals of WP. This is one of those areas. Broad guidance on sourcing across WP encourages contextual discussion. Strict guidance like "never" shuts down such discussions. Will more people claim "their source" is the exception to "generally unreliable"? Absolutely. But that's the whole point - there are exceptions however few and far between they may be. We should be leaving that door for discussion open. Closing it is the part that conflicts with 5P5. --N8_wilson 🔔 16:01, 30 September 2022 (UTC)