Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Beer

• Archive of the first year - 2005
• Archive of the second year - 2006

Beer articles & US POV

It has been pointed out to me that Wikipedia already has a policy regarding Anglo-American focus.

It has also been noted by a WP admin that listing only BJCP style guide links on non-US beers is a violation of that policy. I believe that listing only US perpectives and brewing activities (in addition to the local) is a further violation of that policy. Interestingly most of the editors who seem to be insisting on both of these features (bjcp links and US perspective) are themselves US home-brewers who do not actually contribute content to the beer articles, but rather "guard" this content against removal.

In view of the policy noted above, I propose to delete both from non-US beer articles. Does anyone see anything wrong with this? Mikebe 08:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No. I agree that neither have a place in articles on non-American beers. Giving prominence, for example, to the few Altbiers brewed in the USA on the Altbier page definitely adds an undue American focus. The same is true in other European beer style articles, where the only non-local information is about the USA. What would be siad if the few German examples of IPA were given prominence in the article on that style?Patto1ro 08:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

What specifically do you propose goes in the articles in their place, and from what articles specifically do you propose trimming the information? --Stlemur 09:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• As I said, the articles are only about non-US beers. Frankly, there are actually very few articles at this point that fall into this category, currently only two that I am aware where there are disputes: altbier and hefeweizen. As for what replaces them, in the two cases I just mentioned, the articles look perfectly OK to me in their current state (the US POV has been removed, although it is very likely one of the homebrewers I mentioned will try to revert the page(s) later). Please keep in mind that most of these articles can stand perfectly well without the US POV. As far as bjcp links, there are no European beer organisations quite like them (train judges for home-brewing competitions) and, while there is a brewers association in Germany that does have some style information, it is only in German. OTOH, the German guide is more "user friendly" than the bjcp (which contains brewing instructions). If you have any suggestins, please put them forward. Mikebe 09:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, from the style pages? On the one hand, I agree if there's something more general but still informative to put in the links' place; on the other hand, it's not as though any one country "owns" a particular style (which I think was your original point) -- in the case of Altbier, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of examples and the bulk of production are in the US these days. In that case, I see no particularly compelling reason to eliminate information which highlights the diversity of the style, so long as it's made clear that it's only one perspective. More important to include a variety of viewpoints than to achieve a false equality by eliminating all we have. --Stlemur 10:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, just to make it clear, I am trying to establish a sort of standard here that we all can feel comfortable with, not simply discuss a specific article or two. I'm a little confused with your reference to "the link's place". Which link do you mean? Secondly, as this is, in name anyhow, an encyclopedia, we need to have some kind of clear and obvious organisation. Organising the styles by where they originated rather than by where the greatest quantity may or may not be produced today seems pretty clear to me. The problem with your final point, apart from the fact that it is based on a premise with which I absolutely do not agree, is that it is a logistical nightmare. Yes, it will be no problem getting Americans to write about the US POV on altbier. But, what about the Swiss, Austrians and god knows who else who produce this style? Where are we going to get the resources to add their POV? If you feel that strongly that the US plays such a major role in beer production, why not put that in the American beer article? Wouldn't that be where you'd expect to find it anyhow? Mikebe 11:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm confused now. First of all there's no BJCP reference in the article as it is...secondly the information that you've cut is:

- In America, Alt style beer is something of a rarity, but examples of the style are produced by the premium breweries of Alaskan Brewing Company (under the label of Alaskan Amber) and Long Trail Brewing Company in Vermont.

and I sort of see why you'd want to exclude refernces to particular breweries...but I don't understand why "in America, Alt style beer is something of a rarity" has to go -- the USA has got to be one of the top producers of Alt in the world. As for Czech, Ausrian, and other such contributions, each of us can only be responsibly for his or her own work. We can translate articles from other languages' Wikipedias. But if there are no non-Anglospherians here -- which isn't even true, see the "participants" list on this project's page -- we can't make them materialize by wishing. --Stlemur 12:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• There is no bjcp reference because I've already removed it. Is that the "link's place" that you have refered to? You seem to be looking at the world in binary terms: there's the US and there's the rest of the world. So, if we have "In America, Alt style beer is something of a rarity..." How about: "In Chile, Alt style...", "In France, Alt style...", "In Israel, Alt style...", "In Canada, Alt style..."? Does the world consist of only two parts? Look, I don't mean to be offensive or uncivil, but you seem to: 1. ignore a perfectly reasonable suggestion I've already made (put all this in the American beer article) and 2. trying to configure a Rube Goldbergesque system for the sole purpose of keeping references to US breweries in non-US beer articles. Mikebe 13:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a "non-US" article, it's a worldwide article, as you rightly point out. Therefore it should have a worldwide perspective; if there's something notable about, say, Chilean Alt (or whatever), that has a place, the same as German Alt, Czech Alt, and so on. --Stlemur 14:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• You are correct. Sorry I didn't phrase it better. However, how is "In America, Alt style beer is something of a rarity..." (which, btw, directly contradicts your statement earlier that "I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of examples and the bulk of production (of Altbier) are in the US these days") at all noteworthy (as I pointed out in my last message)? With that sentence in, the article reads like a guide book for an American audience: "here's the situation in Germany, meanwhile, back at home..." Can you see this now? Mikebe 14:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a contradiction. If you take US beer production and total it up, it's something like 95% pisslager and 5% everything else, but that 5% is out of a production twice as big overall as Germany's. I also seem to recall reading (I don't have the source on me, unfortunately -- I am looking for it for something else) that Alt, Kölsch, and Kellerbier are, or at least were at the time, rare in Germany in the same sense, that is, not taking up a large share of beer production.

I don't see how that factual statement -- which I grant could be made more precise -- makes the article "read like a guide book". It needs to be expanded on, of course, with discussion of the American interpretation of the style, history of the style in the US, and so on. --Stlemur 15:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Look, we could sit here all afternoon and discuss how much beer was produced where and it wouldn't bring us any closer to a conclusion because it is not relevant to the subject under discussion. So, let me offer a new suggestion: The article stays as it is now with the addition of something like this "Altbier is also brewed in small quantities in Switzerland, Austria, The Netherlands and the US." This gives the article a more international approach than it has now and it also relieves us of having to add POV from four other countries. That seems fair enough to me. Mikebe 15:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Pointing out that one or more countries' "definitions" of a style are not the same as in the country of origin is not POV. It is merely a statement of fact and a notable one at that. Eliding this fact means that someone in a country where a "style" is idiosyncratically "defined" will believe that what they're drinking is the same as what they would get in the country of origin. I agree that presenting these facts as if they define the style worldwide does constitute POV, but the differences can and should be mentioned to inform people that what is called "Alt" in the United States (or elsewhere perhaps) may differ from what is called "Alt" in Germany. If it is not presented as being the definition, there is no problem, as long as it doesn't overwhelm an article. It just happens that Americans are the most pervasive "offenders" of redefining other countries' styles of beer, so if there is verifiable information that this is the case with a particular style, readers should be informed. Mike Dillon 16:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why we should leave out verifiable, notable information simply because of the country it comes from. No one country "owns" a style or art or cuisine, and with the exception of controlled appelations there's no authority out there which can say, definitively, "what does not meet these criteria is not of this style" -- which brings us back to the BCJP again, because they at least provide a reference that we can use in an article. Certainly better references are welcome, but it's better to be able to point to some reference held in authority by some people somewhere, even if it's not definitive or universal, than to just make an assertion. --Stlemur 16:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, have you noticed that you are the only single person arguing for this inclusion? Also, your discussion seems to go around in circles a bit. As I wrote several messages ago, Altbier is German because they originated it. Nothing else. As for a "reference held in authority", I would nominate the Deutscher Brauer Bund -- you won't find any more authoritative than that. Mikebe 16:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• I think that's a great idea. I for one think it is notable to mention objective definitions if they exist. I would tend to give preference to authorities in the country of origin, but is there really a problem with saying organization A says this ... and organization B says this ...? The reader can then get the whole story. Speaking of which, is there any chance someone is willing to translate the German language Deutscher Brauer Bund article into English so that we can link to it from within the English language pages? Alienmercy 17:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• The problem with A vs. B vs. C is that it is almost never ending. If we have one authoritative source, that should be enough. I don't mind translating the article about Altbier, but the entire site is just too big. Mikebe 17:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Your insistence that a particular authority is "correct" or "factual" and that all others are "fictional" is what got us here. The way Wikipedia tends to resolve these types of disputes is with more information, not less. Explain the dispute rather than taking a side in it. That is what Alienmercy is suggesting. — goethean ॐ 17:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, I was just hoping you could translate the German Wikipedia page on the Deutscher Brauer Bund since there is no English language Wikipedia article (what are the policies on translating the names of such organizations? Do we call it the German Brewer Federation?). I think we should be citing them as an authority on style characteristics. As such, readers should be able to find out about the organization. I tried searching for some info, but it was all in German which is of limited usefulness to me. Alienmercy 18:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• OK, now I understand what you mean. Sure, it's not a big page, I could do that sometime. Mikebe 19:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Do you want to show us where in this discussion I said anything was "fictional"? And, if you had bothered to read this entire discussion, you would see that there are several people, not including me, who pointed out that one particular source was unreliable. Try apologising when you're wrong and people might show you some respect. Mikebe 17:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• [1][2][3]. Apologize? I'm not the one who showed up on Wikipedia and started deleting things with no consensus, edit warring, and leaving troll-like edit summaries ([4]). It is you who has lowered the level of discourse here. To speak more on topic, I endorse Alienmercy's suggestion. — goethean ॐ 18:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• It seems pretty clear what your agenda is and it's not to help with the articles. But, thanks for your input anyway. Mikebe 18:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• What is my agenda? — goethean ॐ 18:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The assertion that Altbier originated in Germany isn't in dispute. The assertion that that fact excludes the consideration of beers made outside Germany is simply false. Stouts originated in England yet you can make meaningful, distinctive statements about English stout versus Irish stout versus American stout; Bocks originated in Germany but you can reasonably talk about German bocks versus American bocks since many US breweries sell as "bock" something radically different from German examples; Porters are originally English but what the sell as porter on the Baltic coast often isn't even an ale. If we can say "this is the style here, this is the style there", that's notable and valid. It's not valid to say "this is the style here, and what they make there is WRONG" and it's not valid to say "this is the style here" and ignore the rest of the world, just like you started out saying.

The Deutscher Brauer Bund does sound like a decent reference for beers withing Germany, though. --Stlemur 17:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Now that we seem to be at a consensus, I don't want to go through your entire statement. However, you misstated my original point: it was that the "world" seemed to consist of only Germany and the US. OK. I'll translate the relevant parts of the DBB article on Alt and we'll add the sentence listing the other countries that brew alt. Everyone happy? Mikebe 17:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

A list isn't the point. The point is that "Altbier" means different things in different countries; we're furthermore making the assertion that there is some consensus definition in Germany, which is different than the consensus definition in the US (I don't know enough about Alts outside those two countries to say where else that might apply; I've never seen anything made in Britain that anyone called an Altbier or a Dusseldorf beer or anything). --Stlemur 18:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Well, I'm completely lost now. I thought you had agreed that we would add something about the other countries making Alt and I would translate part of the DBB description. That's not enough work? Mikebe 18:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry for the confustion. I appreciate you translating anything that will help. I was just hoping someone could create a Wikipedia page for the DBB. The BJCP has one, why not the DBB? Alienmercy 19:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

America produces hundreds of beers which the breweries define as an Alt. I think almost every State in America has a brewery producing a beer called an Alt. I would agree that it is appropriate that some mention is made of that in the Alt entry. The overwhelming majority of users of this encyclopedia would be Americans. It is also quite credible that the majority of readers of the Alt article would be Americans who had just had an Alt at their local brewpub and who wanted to learn a little more about the history of this particular pale ale. The BJCP link, however, is more questionable, and it is appropriate that the BJCP link is left off the article. The BJCP articles are very poorly researched and often inaccurate. They do not give the sources for their information. They are more misleading than helpful. SilkTork 15:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you've succinctly shown the problem with the BJCP references. They are not reliable sources because they are not always "secondary sources" that are synthesized with properly sourced attribution of "primary sources" (see WP:RS for definitions of secondary and primary sources). In some cases, the BJCP is making things up in order to classify something that's inherently difficult to classify precisely, making them a primary source (and not necessarily one that's authoritative on non-American styles). Mike Dillon 16:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL, please. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 20:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Removal of US examples

A related question is whether all US examples of European beer styles should be removed, as User:Mikebe apparently advocates. I would advocate adding them under a seperate heading as "foreign-brewed examples" or something. — goethean ॐ 20:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Examples serve a purpose as directing people to direct evidence of the beer being discussed. This becomes less and less helpful to the point of confusion and unhelpfulness when people simply add on any beer they are aware of which the brewer may think to call a Kolsch or a Baltic Porter etc. In the example you have indicated I can see why any responsible editor would remove those beers. They are not well known or highly regarded examples. It shouldn't matter at all where an example is brewed - but it should and does matter that the examples are verifiable as worthy examples. In general I think the Wiki Beer Project should be ruthless in trimming beer lists so that only verifiable worthy beers are listed. SilkTork 08:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Added to which, having sampled those beers myself, they are both strong stouts rather than Baltic Porters. They are called Baltic Porter by the brewers, but that by itself does not mean they are. SilkTork 08:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

My inclination is to go with what the brewery calls it (with the exception of beers from Texas or other localities where labeling laws are weird -- on which note, we might use a note about Texas in Beer style). I do agree that lists of examples should be short and include only the typifiers of a style; criteria for typifiers is obvious for some styles (e.g. Pilsener, steam beer, doppelbock) but might be tricky for, say, Best Bitter. --Stlemur 15:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

In general I think the Wiki Beer Project should be ruthless in trimming beer lists so that only verifiable worthy beers are listed.

This is a good point, and one that I agree with, because otherwise there will be more advertisements. but it is an extremely subjective and difficult task. I would appreciate hearing your answer to the more general question: should foreign-brewed examples automatically be deleted? I sense that User:Mikebe's answer would be yes. — goethean ॐ 15:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• So now you change your question from "US examples" to "foreign examples". Did you not read the whole discussion above? The only way to have these lists is if they are complete -- both US and others. Who is going to track down all the beers that fit in a category and further who is going to decide what is notable and what is not? Will we have to have one of these lengthy discussions again each time someone proposes a beer? Other than advertising beers I don't see what the point is. There are already examples of each style of beer, why do there have to be more?

• As SilkTork explained, what a brewer calls his beer is not necessarily authoritative. So a brewer calls his beer, say, a stout, we list it as stout and it turns out to be something else. How does this help the reader? Mikebe 16:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• I would also like to add that there is Wikipedia is not a directory policy and that much of what you want is already fully provided by Ratebeer and Beeradvocate and we are, to put it mildly, in no position to compete or even try to match them. Mikebe 18:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• The linked policy is not relevant to this question. — goethean ॐ 18:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's guidelines are developing as we go along. And in my experience for pretty much any Wiki policy you'll find another Wiki policy that states the opposite. Some debates have been conducted by one side quoting one policy, only for the opposing side to quote the opposing policy. Stick around long enough and you'll see it happen! What is interesting is that policy develops out of discussions such as we are having here - and that's the important thing. The Wiki way is that we follow the best reasoned argument, though it does unfortunately sometimes happen that sheer weight of numbers will force an unreasoned point. In the situation we have here there are no weight of numbers - we have a small group of people who are willing to discuss the issues. That is the Wiki way. This is good. We are reaching agreement that we do not want a long list of examples of beer. Noteworthy examples of a regional, historical or recipe based beer are what we are looking for. It would be simplistic to say that these examples should be or not be confined to any particular region. Sometimes a beer changes country - as with A le Coq Imperial Stout. On other occasions it is the very terrain which defines the beer - as with Lambic. There are sour wheat beers made outside the Lambic region, but they are not Lambics - despite what the brewer may say. We would need to look at each case individually. But, of course, as a general rule, I see nothing advantageous in geographical limitations being placed on all examples of beers. I also see little to be gained, and a lot to be lost in having simple lists of examples in the first place. I see more advantage in beers being discussed and explained in the article. Reasons given for a beer being considered noteworthy. I'd like to see lists discouraged as it can lead to people with little knowledge simply adding on another beer. Whereas detailed text and reasons are mainly the reserve of those who have a bit of knowledge. SilkTork 18:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

And always remember that whatever rock hard policy people come up with, you can always trump them with this one: The Master Trump Card SilkTork 18:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

SilkTork, thank you for your calm, reasoned, and civil reply. — goethean ॐ 19:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Introducing myself in the context of this debate

• Hi, I'm the homebrewer that Mikebe was having the content dispute on Altbier with. I've decided to join up, since I have a decently sized library of literature on the subject that I might be able to contribute with. Just for the record, as long as there's a better source than the BJCP for a style definition (i.e. the DBB), I agree that it should come first in the article. That said, I think it is important to acknowledge all aspects of a style, both native/original forms and derivatives, so I expect that my edits will reflect that philosophy. I hope I can be of service, though I think there's a very good chance that I don't own anything someone else with better beer chops than I already does... Haikupoet 04:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hi and welcome to the beer project. Please read the full discussion before making suggestions. As you will read here, the majority of us find the bjcp definitions unreliable and therefore unacceptable, so we have agreed not to use them in the non-US beer articles. Please realise that, as a homebrewer, you have different priorities than the typical reader and the typical contributor. Please bear that in mind. I would also take strong exception to your statement "it is important to acknowledge all aspects of a style". On the contrary, as a long-time beer drinker myself, the question of "style" has never come up. I realise that the bjcp judges home-brew competitions largely on the basis of style, however, we are not writing here about home-brew competitions. Let's please keep that in mind. Mikebe 10:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

There has been no agreement on using BJCP links, at the moment we only have discussion. However, there is a cloud over them. BJCP members often assert that the quidelines are authorative; unfortunately these members are not beer academics, and are not aware of the misleading and poor quality information. BJCP are starting to adjust their quidelines after mistakes have been pointed out to them, but there are still many errors. In discussion with BJCP members I have been informed that research was done, but no evidence has ever been provided, and some of the errors are clearly based on imagination. It is good to see that after pointing out that Scottish brewers did not use smoked malts the Scottish Ale description has at last been adjusted, though the statement that Scotish brewers used fewer hops than English hops (despite hard evidence indicating that Scottish brewers often used considerably more hops than English brewers) is still in there. The discussion on BJCP links being used for beer style articles is a related but different one to the question on US POV, and I would welcome that discussion being made explicit.

Beer style is another interesting area of discussion, and one that we should have as well. For now, however, it should be accepted that the modern American approach - influenced by both Fred Eckhardt and Michael Jackson - is based on recipe, while the traditional European approach is rather more organically arranged around concepts of yeast, ingredients, location, tradition, equipment, method, etc - a much looser, less easily defined set of circumstances. Though the approaches are different, neither should be abandoned. Indeed, both need to be embraced. My feeling is that Mikebe, as with many Europeans, feels that European culture is being swamped by American culture. And that, no doubt, is the source for his frustration. However, a balanced and accurate world view is what we should all be striving for, even if that means accepting a view one is not always familiar or comfortable with. SilkTork 18:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

the statement that Scotish brewers used fewer hops than English hops (despite hard evidence indicating that Scottish brewers often used considerably more hops than English brewers) is still in there

If this is an error, it is an extremely widespread one in America, with Greg Noonan coming to mind as one repeating it. — goethean ॐ 19:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I've not read Noonan's book. But I'd be interested in seeing what evidence he has for this belief. Check out my own article: http://www.ratebeer.com/Beer-News/Article-593.htm which explains, with direct links to available on-line sources (though much evidence is not yet on the net, and is in book form only), that Scottish brewers didn't lack for hops. It's one thing for people to say something, it's quite another to actually prove it. People might have hunches, they might make assumptions, educated quesses, etc, but when what they are saying flies in the face of actual hard evidence, and there is no evidence to support their opinions then I think it's time to say they might be mistaken. The Glasgow and Edinburgh breweries had more access to hops through the extensive shipping trade than did English brewers in non-hop growing areas such as Cornwall which had poorer trading routes. SilkTork 19:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, SilkTork. I am a huge fan of McEwan's IPA. Not so much of Bert Grant. — goethean ॐ 20:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• The problem I have with the bjcp is not only that most of their style guides for European beers are wrong, the bigger problem is that the style guide is designed to be used in US home-brewing competitions. IOW, these are competition class definitions, perhaps with no intention that they be published as a "definitive" standard, yet many here see them as "authoritative". Secondly, the two home-brewers in this discussion apparently feel that the readership of the WP beer articles is primarily home-brewers like themselves and so, brewing information (via bjcp or other sources) should be included in most style articles. For example, after I removed (and Goethean reverted) a home-brewing article linked from the Altbier page, Haikupoet wrote: "Incidentally, I think the BYO article is quite relevant as it gives a description of the process involved in making alt." And, in addition to this, Goethean persists in childish behaviour with not apparent purpose other then to be annoying.

• You are perfectly correct, SilkTork, that I see more and more the Americanisation of these articles. Just today, someone went through the main beer article changing the international spelling to American spelling. The bjcp, whether intentional or not, seems very American to me and that further adds to the Americanisation. Undoubtedly, Americans will feel more "at home" reading these articles, but for the rest of us, it is becoming less and less comfortable. OTOH, we are the ones who can read the sources in their original languages and without us, the beer articles will have to rely on only what's available in English, which, from what I've seen, is not very accurate. And, if the articles continue this Americanisation and this emphasis on home-brewing, I'll leave. It will become a place where I won't feel welcome, and I won't be the first. Mikebe 21:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks in this discussion and elsewhere. --Stlemur 21:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is wrong with homebrewing information? It is a description of how a given beer is made; it is inextricably linked to the concept of beer style, and the information applies on both small and large scale. Surely there's no shortage of Rhine valley homebrewers? Then put some of their recipes up as well. You can't talk in depth about a beer and not discuss how it's produced as well. That's why all the homebrewing stuff. Haikupoet 01:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I'm sorry if you feel that way about Wikipedia. It's fine to add your own information to it, but keep in mind that there isn't always one "right" perspective. It can be asserted that there is an authentic perspective, but even that can be subject to massive argument and subjectivity. For example, yes, altbier is a German product. But you can't ignore that it's made in other countries, and you certainly can't argue that how the product is made is irrelevant. As for sourcing issues, if you don't like the source, add a better one. That's how Wikipedia works. I'm not really sure what else to tell you, except that reducing systemic bias is not a matter of getting rid of other perspectives but filling them out. (I think the operative concept is descriptive vs. prescriptive, i.e. the Oxford English Dictionary vs. the Academie Française. The point of Wikipedia is to describe "what is"; "what should be" is not irrelevant, but it's only a subset of that. Haikupoet 07:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Again, I appreciate your tone. The problem I see here is double: the first is the theoretical vs. the reality of how WP does or should work and the second is the sharp differences in our perspectives. To address the first: yes, Wikipedia should allow for responsible people to work together to achieve the best possible result. However, as I said yesterday in a fit of frustration, that is absolutely not how it is working here now.

• On perspectives: You said "you can't ignore that it's made in other countries". I have never said that should be done. I have added to articles "the beer is also produced in (list of countries)", plus, where examples are given, I had added lists of other countries and the breweries and names of their beers Imperial stout. That is what has been discussed here and that also puts things into an international perspective. I mean, for example, Altbier is originally German and so, German altbiers should have the primary focus. I do not agree that German and American versions should share an equal focus. If a beer type is developed in one country, but a second or third country developes it further into something different, but equally good (that's a difficult decision), then, make a new article for the new version of the beer. So, if Americans, for example, take a traditional beer, IPA, for example, and modify to create a new and important version of it, then make a new article called American IPA and both countries can have equal attention.

• I do not, however, agree with your comment "you certainly can't argue that how the product is made is irrelevant" I most certainly do argue with that concept. Do movie reviews explain the techniques behind how a film was made? Do wine reviews explain (technically) how the wine was made? Do music reviews explain how the music was made? Personally, I have been drinking European beers for almost 40 years and I have never once thought "I wonder how they did that". I am also not a home-brewer. Mikebe 09:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a reviewing site. For that, go to BeerAdvocate or Ratebeer; it's not our role to decide if a development of a style is "good", just whether it's notable. And yes, some film reviews do talk about how the film was made -- commenting on camera work, direction, and so on -- but more important, articles about films most definitely do talk about the technical details of the production. --Stlemur 09:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, you are correct that my examples were not very good. However, I stick with one: wine. It seems to me that the wine articles here are directly comparable to the beer articles here. Please note that nowhere among the wine articles is there any description of "how the product was made." And, I will suggest that wine lovers are perhaps even more concerned with the technical aspects of their drink than beer drinkers in general. Secondly, look at a wine/grape that is now also produced in the US, as well as other countries, for example Gewürztraminer. This is handled exactly as we have suggested here: a list of the countries where it is now also grown. But, I will return to my original point: wine-lovers are easily as technically interested as beer-lovers, yet, as a look through the wine articles here will show, there is absolutely no discussion of "how the product was made." Mikebe 10:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Mikebe is making an interesting point about the way that the Wine articles are organised. And there is something that can be taken from that, but it has also to be noted that beer is rather more complex than wine and a direct comparison cannot be made. We have in the past considered the way that the beer and breweries articles are organised. An agreement was reached that beers would be dealt with under the brewery - other than notable beers which deserved an article of their own. We then attempted to deal with the notion of notable breweries, and a rough agreement was reached that minor breweries would be dealt with on a regional basis. At that point I took a rest from Wiki. I would welcome another discussion on the best way to organise the beer articles, and a reappraisal of our current system.

There is a lot coming out of Mikebe's involvement with the WikiBeerProject, and even though feelings are running high at the moment, I think there should be some recognition that his intention is for the best, and he wants to improve the beer articles. I feel his involvement here is a breath of fresh air - and he has certainly got me interested again. I would love at this point for both Mikebe and Goethean to put the past behind them, agree that they have different viewpoints, and move forward to discussing how best to improve Wiki. It is unlikely they will reach consensus, but there are other people involved in the project who have views as well and through other people, and good reasoned argument we will make progress. SilkTork 17:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

SilkTork's comments disappoint me. Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia. A Wikipedian needs more than knowledge and good intentions; he or she also needs to have a certain basic respect for the policies of Wikipedia and for point of views other than their own. The job of a Wikipedian is not to inform Americans that their views are irrelevant or fictitous, or that their organizations are irrelevant and that all mention of them should be deleted. I cannot say that I find Mikebe's contributions to be a breath of fresh air. I find them combative, dismissive, and contemptuous. Unfortunately, I have reacted to them with combativeness myself. SilkTork appears to encourage Mikebe's behavior. I will not do that. Instead, I will continue to abide by Wikipedia policy as best I can. — goethean ॐ 17:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Goethean wrote: "I will continue to abide by Wikipedia policy as best I can." Well, the main reason I have problems with Goethean is that the "best I can" means nothing at all. Take a look, for example, at his talk page -- I am far from the only person objecting to his modus operandi. In complaining about my edits, he also blatantly ignores WP:AGF and WP:RS, and the one he tramples on almost daily: Anglo-American focus. He has sharply different views than I do about some things (like the reliability of bjcp style guides for European beers), yet, instead of discussing them here, as others do, he does revert warring and personal attacks. I didn't know they were part of Wikipedia policy. Mikebe 16:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Stop it Mikebe! These personal attacks are achieving nothing positive. SilkTork 19:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not claim to be perfect. And unlike others, I do not claim that my facts are "the facts". And I am confident that an examination of my edits and yours will be very helpful in evaluating your accusations. Your seventh edit under the username Mikebe was to engage in edit warring — and not with me. Since that time, the Wikipedia community has continued in its stubborn resistance to recognize the superiority of your facts. — goethean ॐ 16:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel like knocking your heads together. Mistakes, arguments and friction happen on Wikipedia. Neither of you are achieving anything positive in your attempts to blame the other one. Nobody here really cares. What we care about is what you are going to do in the future. Leave aside individual and personal blame, and get on with editing the beer pages. If you think your edit might be contested, then bring the matter up here in advance and lets get it discussed. SilkTork 19:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Not quite sure why suggesting you and Mikebe should stop arguing should disappoint you. That comment concerns me. I am aware that you both have different points of view. I am aware that you both have snapped at each. I am aware that you have both engaged in revert wars. But I am suggesting that you both put that behind you and move on.

Mikebe has been putting forward some ideas - not all of which I agree with, and I have made it clear that I do not agree with all his ideas. But he has come here with a fresh eye, and a bunch of ideas, and some considerable knowledge. Let's make best use of that.

So again: From this point on, Mikebe and Goethean, forget what has happened up to this point. Let's move on. SilkTork 12:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

As I had hoped to make clear in my earlier post, it is not your suggestion to put the past behind us that I objected to, but your praise of Mikebe's edits and your failure to note the accompanying disruptiveness and incivility. — goethean ॐ 16:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I was responding to Mikebe's suggestions in the post above, not to his edits or his conflict with you. There are several items that have come out of his comments above that I shall be proposing to the Project shortly. I'm really hoping at this stage that both of you can put personal matters behind you and concentrate on Wikipedia. That was the gist of my post. Let's focus on the good in each other, not on the bad. Nobody is really all bad! SilkTork 19:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Barging in?

Hi people, I realised that this project was going on, only after editing a few of the Belgian Beer pages, namely Bières de Chimay, Brasserie d'Orval and Brasserie de Rochefort.

Had I known, I would have consulted you, since I am not even part of the project itself. Basically I added gustative details for the trappist beers mentioned in the above pages, and corrected a few typos (it's Chimay Bleue, damn it). I basically used the same descriptions that I used when I wrote my article about Trappist Beers at Everything2 - so I plagiarised myself.

Feel free to revert the changes if they violate any of your policies. I should have looked up this project before touching any of the existing beer articles.

That said, if you wish to let a beer-loving, Portuguese-born Belgian resident join the club, I'll be happy to pitch in from time to time. Cheers ! Antonius Maximus 17:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, and welcome. You are not "barging in", you are joining in - good to have you aboard. What we need most of now in the WikiProject Beer is references to sources. What we tend to have too much of is editorial opinion. I am as guilty of that as the next man. At this point, however, we need to look very carefully at all our beer entries, and where we have descriptions of individual beers what we need is a reference to an agreed, notable source, such as Michael Jackson, Roger Protz, etc. As I note you have written an article on the beers you have edited, would you have links to the sources you used to inform your article? If you have, I'll show you how to insert those links into Wiki. Cheers. SilkTork 12:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks mate. I used to have those references when I wrote the original article at Everything2, but not anymore. The descriptions were originally in French and came from a small beer tasting community... I'll try to find it again. As you probably guessed, I'm more into tasting rather than technical aspects, so I think I won't tread on the above sensitive subjects which have been the lenghtiest read I've had in a while. ;-) Antonius Maximus 21:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The more varied the interests of the contributors the better informed and more interesting the articles. You don't need to have technical knowledge. Your interest, enthusiasm and willingness to participate is good enough. I look forward to you finding those sources! Cheers! SilkTork 18:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this is the place where I need to add my comments. I generally just randomly jump around wikipedia adding links and comments (and most have not been removed). This, however, is an area in which most outside this field would consider me an expert (many of you would consider me an experienced amateur). I have a fair amount of knowledge on Arizona breweries and drink a lot of bottled and tap beers from US microbreweries, although less with the loss of Mill Avenue Beer Company and Timber Wolf Tavern Tempe (-130 good taps of beer). I could provide information (a lot of it just provided on the bottles themselves) but after trying to list as a particpant several times, I had nothing else. I will travel to almost any brewery in Phoenix area and can talk friends into travelling to ones outside this great city. Autkm

A few thoughts on homebrewing

As I said above, I think that with beer, the process of making a particular beer is part and parcel of the character of the beer itself. Unlike wine, the brewer has complete control over what goes into the wort, and therefore it's relevant to talk about recipes and techniques. There's really only a few beers in the world that are wholly dependant on a sense of place; water treatment and readily available cultures of exotic varieties of yeast and bacteria make it theoretically possible to emulate almost any style, almost anywhere, with a reasonable level of fidelity.

This is where homebrewing information comes in. A great number of Anglophone brewers (not just Americans, but Canadians and British as well) started not as apprentices but amateurs, learning the craft from books. (As a matter of fact, many American winemakers started out the same way, as Prohibition had largely wiped out the native knowledge base of wine production.) Only a few American brewers have gone to school to learn their craft, which is why there's a large body of technical and stylistic literature on the subject readily available to a consumer market. As a result, that's what we have to work with, and I think it very much enhances an article on a specific beer if there's a readily available source on how it's made (and a recipe as well, especially for beers that aren't readily available in the locale of any given reader).

Look, tasting notes are great, and I freely acknowledge that what a beer tastes like, in the grand scheme of things, is more important in terms of definitions than how it's made. But Wikipedia is not paper, and the more verifiable information on any given subject, the better. If the sources are inaccurate, well, the best solution is to substitute more accurate sources, not to delete them entirely. Nobody is saying that European beer culture doesn't matter, as most of the styles we drink are European in origin. What we are saying is that outsider beer culture matters as well, and should be acknowledged, and that technical information can be just as important as sensory information. Haikupoet 19:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• I recognise that you are: a. a home-brewer and b. enthusiastic about home-brewing, however, you make the mistake that everyone shares your interest and opinion. Wikipedia has both articles about home-brewing as well as articles about beer from another perspective: drinking it. Drinking beer and making it are two entirely different and separate activities. Yes, I assume that home-brewers also drink beer, but drinkers do not automatically brew beer. Home-brewing information belongs in articles about home-brewing, it has absolutely no place in general articles about beer. No one is arguing that this is a paper encyclopedia and that space is rare. The issue is where you put it. I suggest you put it where it belongs: in the articles about home-brewing.

• As far as American or other versions of European beer, I don't have a problem with using that information. The problem I have is where that information dominates over all other. Mikebe 09:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Home-brewing information belongs in articles about home-brewing, it has absolutely no place in general articles about beer.

This is nothing but your personal opinion. Wikipedia runs on a consensus basis. — goethean ॐ 15:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for pointing that out. I had this crazy idea it was run on facts. Mikebe 15:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not. Since not everyone agrees on any particular set of facts, that would be impossible. You probably haven't read any Wikipedia policy pages, which may explain why you are having such a hard time here. Please see: Wikipedia:List_of_policies — goethean ॐ 15:50, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• I will heartily recommend that you read Anglo-American focus, then fix this and any other violation of it and we can drop the hostility and move on. Mikebe 11:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• I'm only having a hard time here with one person and his friend. And I repeat that home-brewing is a different subject than articles about beers. Mikebe 17:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems that there is some negativity in this space directed at home brewing. Might I suggest that we all assume good faith and acknowledge that many home brewers are just trying to help by focusing some of their enthusiasm about beer on this project? I'm not sure arguing about generalities in the importance of drinking vs. making beer is helping us write better articles. I think it would help if we could look at a few specific examples that are in question. Is it just the linking to BJCP, or is there more to it? Alienmercy 18:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• I fear that you may have misunderstood me. I have no negative feeling about home-brewing. What I am saying is that home-brewing is an entirely different subject from the beer articles we write and so it should be in a different place. That's all. Not removed, just make the beer articles clear and readable to everyone and let the home-brewers have their own place for their articles. If you were to look up bookcases, for example, you wouldn't expect to find instructions on building one. But if you looked up do-it-yourself, then you would. That's all I'm suggesting. Mikebe 22:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• I do understand where you're coming from. I'm just hoping we can move the discussion to more specifics. Where can the improvements be made? Alienmercy 01:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• There are some articles about beer that are not more than stubs. Those could be expanded by people who know something about the beers. There are other articles based on incorrect information that could be corrected. I happened to look at the Belgian beer article yesterday and found a lot of misinformation, plus beer descriptions that were mostly, if not entirely, technical. I think also we need to have some standards. For example, the Belgian beer article has a section on "dubbel", but someone changed the reference of "witbier" to "white beer". When do the foreign beer examples have their names translated into English and when do they stay in their original language? I suggest that they always should be given in the local language. Mikebe 08:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• I still don't really get why you see a need to separate them. I don't really see any other place for information on how a beer is made except in the article itself, and I don't see how that is irrelevant to a beer style to begin with. In the past you've compared beer to wine -- well, I don't think that comparison is apt at all, since the processes of making beer and wine are vastly different. A brewer has near-total control over every step of the process, from water treatment to grain bill to hops to yeast selection; a winemaker has some control (grape variety, terroir, sugar/acid adjustments) but not on the fine level that a brewer does. The process is part and parcel of what makes a specific beer what it is, and brewing literature (both homebrewing and commercial) is by far the best place to find that information. Yes, there are separate articles on homebrewing, true. But separate articles on brewing specific beer styles (i.e. Altbier and Brewing Altbier) would be redundant at best. (In any case, most of that would be in References and External Links, not the main body of the article -- while some is appropriate, we obviously don't need the whole damn recipe for each and every variation of the style that's out there. But I maintain that it should still be accessible from the wiki page.) Haikupoet 01:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• To begin with the negative: I completely disagree with your comparison of home beer and home wine production. I think they are perfectly comparable within the context of this conversation. I can see, however, if you get together with some fellow home-brewers, that you might think the opposite, however, we are not discussing that, we are discussing within the context of an encyclopedia for the general public. OK, now let's get more positive. I think we can find a compromise here. While I don't agree with you that it would be so difficult to set up a home-brewing area with links to specific styles, I do agree with you that it would be easier to link it directly from the beer articles. How about this: the beer descriptions stay non-technical (no talk of esters, IBUs or diacytl) and a new section in the links called "home-brewing" or something like that. As I hope you have read here, quite a few of us agree that the bjcp style guides for non-American beers are full of errors. So, although you didn't mention bjcp, I hope that, if you insist on giving brewing information for non-American beers that you can at least find a better source than the bjcp. How about that? Mikebe 08:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I took a look at the white beer article, and I agree that it could be made less technical. Take a look at the table at the top of the page. I'm not sure where else there are tables like this, but I'd like to discuss all of them. I suggest removing "Original Gravity", "Final Gravity", and "Attenuation". We could even add some nontechnical info on the "heaviness" of the body (e.g. light body, medium, etc.). For color, I say ditch the SRM and just describe it in words (e.g. yellow/straw/gold with orange hues). I don't think it is necessary to list the yeast type; simply say it is an ale in the body of the article. "Malt percentage" is probably also unnecessary. I generally think if a style generally uses ingredients outside the main four, then it is notable. So I suggest that we keep the descriptions about the use of orange, coriander, and wheat. On the other hand, I do think bitterness is important, and I don't think IBU is too technical. I'm not sure it could really be replaced with words like low, medium, high, etc. With styles like India Pale Ale, it's extremely high bitterness is one of the things distinguishing it from other styles, and so the article makes much use of IBUs throughout the entirety of the article (including its history). Since high amounts of hops are one reason for this, I think it is appropriate to mention that it is made with a high hop amounts. I have also proposed changing the name of the white beer article to witbier on the article's talk page. Alienmercy 15:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

One thing we can do with SRM/EBC information is turn it directly into a color box. ProMash has a color estimator, but one should be able to convert without fancy toys -- SRM only refers to a single frequency IIRC. --Stlemur 20:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I have to agree on this one. SRM/EBC are nice bits of information for commercial brewers and recipe writers, but are of little interest to beer fanciers or most homebrewers. As much as I've been advocating for inclusion of links to recipes and techniques, it's overkill actually including the numbers in the article. Leave it for the reference links. (Besides, SRM<->EBC is an easy conversion, but risking an edit war is unnecessary.) Haikupoet 20:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I would leave the numbers in, but give them a less prominent place in the article. Also we can source them: "According to x, this attribute for styles ranges from y to z" — goethean ॐ 20:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• I'm more inclined to go with the color box as I think it will give the most useful information. Stlemur, do you think you could give us an idea of how to do this translation to show a nice wikified color box? Should we then show a range of colors? A few examples (with the caveat that they may not be totally representative)? Also, I hate to open this can of worms again, but it is probably the most important: what are you all using for references? I'd be happy to track down some books and look some of it up myself if I knew that you'd all be ok with those sources. Alienmercy 21:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hm. We should probably start a new section on references to answer that question. Haikupoet 22:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Hm. There's a flipside to all this that I ought to mention as well -- color descriptions are often subjective (I've heard of an otherwise competent early 20th Century beer expert whose color descriptions were way out of whack, for example calling a Maerzen "golden" in color. SRM/EBC can be measured objectively using a properly calibrated image sensor. So in theory the numbers are more useful. That said, you've got different standards in different countries. I don't think the issue of SRM vs EBC is all that much of a problem; simply give both measurements. So, I dunno. The trick is to get as much as possible in without making it look like the shutdown menu on Windows Vista. Haikupoet 21:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I am arguing that the numbers should stay in the article, but not in the template. — goethean ॐ 21:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

• Good for you, Alienmercy! I agree completely with what you suggest. I'm not even sure what purpose the colour description serves. For some beers, they are in a range of colours -- Belgian triples and German Märzens, for example. The bitterness is a little more of a problem because some American beers tend to be so much more bitter than European beers that it makes even a scale difficult. But, OTOH, if we use IBUs, we need to define it in each article, and we need to give some kind of idea of what the numbers mean. For most people, IBU doesn't mean anything. Mikebe 20:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Goals/ Strategy

A little while ago I made an adjustment to the stated aims of the Project. The change was reverted back to the original. The two versions are here:

Original:

Our tactics are fairly simple:drink beer, take notes and share the information that you have collected via Wikipedia/Wikipedia:WikiProject Beer.

Our goals, as identified on our project's main page, include:

1. Catalogue all the notable breweries: List of breweries.
2. Organize and categorize all known styles of beer, and write decent articles on them.
3. (Eventually) catalogue notable beers.
4. Add other essential beer-related knowledge to Wikipedia.
   1. e.g., more detailed info on beer and nationality.
5. Get beer to a FA status
6. Get stewed to the brim.

Adjustment:

Goals

1. Agree and formulate criteria for notability of breweries.
2. Catalogue all the notable breweries: Category:Beer and breweries by region.
3. Organize and categorize all known styles of beer, and write decent articles on them.
4. Agree and formulate criteria for notability of beers.
5. (Eventually) catalogue notable beers.
6. Add other essential beer-related knowledge to Wikipedia.
   1. e.g., more detailed info on beer and nationality.
7. Get beer to a FA status
8. Monitor Category:Beer and brewery stubs and develop those stubs into articles

Is there any objection to making the adjustment? SilkTork 11:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

So the change is to include the formulation of notability criteria for beers and breweries, drop the tongue-in-cheek reference to getting drunk, and add monitoring of the stub articles? Sounds like a good clarification of the Wikiproject's purpose.

If you're also talking about dropping the note about the "tactics", I'd support that as well since it encourages original research. What we need is sourced references (or at a minimum verifiable, objective content), not individual Wikipedians' opinion about different beers. Mike Dillon 16:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I don't want to sound totally anal and negative about the opinion thing, so I would point out the Wikia Beer site, where these things are appropriate from what I understand. Mike Dillon 16:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

As there has been no objection, I've restored the Goals to the Project page. SilkTork 16:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge

There are three articles which cover the same concept of low alcohol beer: Low alcohol beer, Small beer and Near beer. It would appear that these would be better served being brought together as one article. The merge page gives this suggestion as to when to merge: "[When] there are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability." As there is an obvious overlap I am proposing a merge of all three articles. SilkTork 16:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Argyriou (talk) 17:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I've merged the three, but I haven't done any significant work on the combined article. SilkTork 01:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Another merge (Burton upon Trent brewing)

This proposal might be more controversial due to what happened at the time.

In June a new user User:Minardi created a new article Burton upon Trent brewing. I felt the article would be better served in a general article on the history and development of English beer, so redirected the article there, and informed Minardi of what I had done, congratulating him at the same time on a good piece of editing. User:Noisy reverted my redirection. I spoke Minardi who agreed that the divert to English beer was more appropriate than keeping it as a stand alone article, so I spoke to Noisy and restored the divert. At this point User:Stlemur made [this post] on the WikiProject Beer talk page, and User:goethean reverted the article again. I took on board all the comments made during the ensuing discussion, and - as you note - am being very careful to bring to people's attention any work I may do that might be open to question. I will, as above, point out some guidelines from the Wiki merge page:

There are several good reasons to merge a page:

There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject. .... If a page is very short and cannot or should not be expanded terribly much, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic. If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it.

At the moment the Burton information is repeated on the English beer page because I have put it back there, and I would like to do some more work on that article, as I did with the Scottish beer article. Repeating the information seems unnecessary, and not including the information on an article on English beer seems odd. Having the Burton brewing information placed in an article on the general history of brewing and beer in England puts the whole thing into context and is more helpful generally. The history of brewing in Burton actually begins in London, and then involves other places in England. Burton is to England as Edinburgh is to Scotland in terms of beer. It has an importance, but that importance is best understood in a more general article. SilkTork 17:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Your suggestion is probably a good one, mostly because the article on English beer is so short. If, in the future, the English beer article becomes excessively long, it may become necessary to split the article into sub-articles, possibly including one on Burton-upon-Trent brewing (if there is enough detail to distinguish that from brewing in other locations). That said, I look forward to the comments of others on this proposal. — goethean ॐ 17:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a valid point, the potential length of the English beer article. And, as you say, it would be appropriate at the right time to make an informed decision to which sections to split off, which might include Brewing in Burton. SilkTork 18:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I may want to abstain on this one, but I would like to make a comment nevertheless. There are certain cities and regions that have left a particular mark on the beer world -- Dublin, Munich, and Burton-upon-Trent would be among them -- such that a separate article on each city's brewing history would be a subject unto itself. I don't want to be dogmatic about it, but I think it's a point worth considering. Haikupoet 02:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I hear what you are saying. Burton did give its name to a process of adding sulphate to water, known as Burtonisation, to a fermenting system, Burton Union, and to a beer, Burton Ale - otherwise known as India Pale Ale, and an acknowledgement needs to be made of these things. My point is that the acknowledgement is best done in context - such as a mention in the Burton upon Trent article, a mention in the English beer article, a mention in the India Pale Ale/ Burton Ale article, a mention in Burton Union, and a mention in Burtonisation. The information is where people would look for it. "Burton upon Trent brewing" is not a search that people would naturally make. SilkTork 08:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think there are points to both sides of this article. The length of the english brewing article will be getting silly if we have every town and beer in there, and the Burton-On-Trent article might not be the first place to look for beer information. However, I do agree, its independant page does seem short currently. I have to say though, a fuller article is still possible, in my opinion. I just don't know enogh to add. Minardi 22:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Redirect now in place. All content now at English beer. SilkTork 01:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed redirect of American strong ale

I'm proposing a redirect to Pale Ale, similar to the original redirect. American strong ale is a variation on pale ale, and the different variations are best initially discussed in the main article. Later, if enough information grows, we can split it off, but for now it might be best to allow it to grow in a place where attention could be concentrated, and informative comparisons can be made. SilkTork 21:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

American strong ale is a variation on pale ale

I would say that it is a variation on English versions of old ale, barleywine, and IPA (IPA of course being a variation on pale ale). Since we have no general strong ale article, I'm not sure where to send the redirect. — goethean ॐ 22:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

You're right. There should be an article on Strong Pale Ale. SilkTork 23:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

What references are you using?

Alienmercy asked that question, and I thought it would be a good idea to make a section where we can list our references so people can do cross-lookups.

Most of my material comes from the American homebrewing literature. As a general rule, the book people in this country start with when learning to brew is Charlie Papazian's Complete Joy of Homebrewing, but that isn't too useful for style information. Most of the books that are available to the American market on brewing are printed by either Storey Publishing or Brewer's Publications ([5] is the umbrella organization, the Brewers Association); out of those two, Brewer's Publications has the Classic Beer Style Series. Haikupoet 22:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Charlie Papazian's books actually list some style information (like color and bitterness ranges along with a little history), but I'm not sure how reliable it is. In fact, I think Charlie had a hand in creating some of the style guidelines that are in question. But if Papazian can't be considered reliable, which publications can? What criteria does an author or book need to meet for us to be able to use them as a reference for style? I'm assuming info on specific beers, breweries, etc. isn't as big of a deal because the information is not as subjective. We shouldn't be writing poorly sourced articles, and if there exists no reliable, verifiable information on style, the articles should simply not be created (maybe info should be placed in articles on the history/culture of beer for a particular region). Right now there is a debate going on about deletion of unsourced articles, and I don't think we want our articles to be targets. Alienmercy 14:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Referencing is our big weakness. It's one of the things that I think we need to be targetting as a priority. I didn't reference much when I first started editing here as it wasn't such an issue at the time. Then people reviewing the main Beer article starting pointing out that referencing was one of the weak points. So I had started to work on that at that time. But then I took a Wiki Break. Referencing is really important - and the best time to do it is when you are doing the editing because you have your references in front of you. Trying to add them later is a nightmare, as you can't remember which book or website you used! Primary sources are preferable to secondary. The Beer Style books are regarded as secondary sources. But they can be useful because the better ones will give their original sources and if you are able, it's best to go back to the original source. Of course, any source is better than none, and if going to the primary source is going to be too much work, then use the secondary. SilkTork 17:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Beer Style Box?

I think it would be neat and real helpful if someone perhaps added a box at the bottom of the Beer Style page with all the different styles. We could also put the same box on all the individual pages of beer styles. It would enhance navigation and facilitate learning about different beer styles you may not be familiar with. I would be happy to do it myself but I'm totally swamped at work at the moment and I've never created a box before.Let me know what everyone thinks. Also if this does happen is there a way do put the box on all the style pages at once? It might be time consuming to do it one by one.--BrokenStoic 03:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I just started it as {{Beer Styles}}. I don't want to get into debating which styles belong in the template, since some of the styles end up being controversial in one way or another, so I just added Ale and Lager. Let me know if you need instructions on how to add more styles. As for adding it, it probably should be added one-by-one, especially since these templates are generally only added to articles that have links in the template itself. If we need to split it into groups later, there are base templates that allow groups of links (e.g. an ale group and a lager group). Mike Dillon 04:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey that's great looking. I will try to work on expanding it over the next few weeks. I figure there are some essential styles (IPA, Bitters, Pilsners) that everyone will be happy to see there. --BrokenStoic 07:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

That looks to me like an excellent navigation box. Will it feed off the articles in the Beer styles category, or will they have to be changed manually as the articles are created and/or merged? And if a change is made in the box, will that change be applied to all places where the box is located? SilkTork 17:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It's all manual. — goethean ॐ 17:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It's mostly manual, as goethean said, except that the changes will automatically be picked up by all articles that include the template. One nice thing about these templates is that if the article it is included in is linked in the template, the link will be bolded when viewing that article. This is simply a side-effect of the fact that any self-link in an article is bolded. The one caveat is that it requires that the links in the template don't point to a redirect, since self-redirects are not automatically bolded.

So, who's going to start adding this to the style articles? To be bold, I added it to Beer style itself to demonstrate. Mike Dillon 21:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What do people think of the "v d e" links for viewing, discussing, and editing the template? It's a simple matter to include or remove the links, but I thought it would be a good idea since we don't seem to have a lot of people involved in this project that know how to find and edit templates. I feel that having the links will lead to the template being better maintained once it is no longer under discussion. Mike Dillon 21:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I also think including the links is a good policy. It's certainly made it a lot easier for me to make quick changes to box. The more people we can get involved in this project the better. --BrokenStoic 05:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Michael Jackson

Despite all our differences, we all like/love beer and the good people who are helping in the cause of good beer. I therefore thought that this article would be of interest to everyone. It is sad, but not hopeless. http://www.brookston.org/beer/michael-jackson-reveals-his-battle-with-parkinsons Mikebe 14:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing that. — goethean ॐ 15:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Malt liquor

Is there such a thing as malt liquor in the UK, Europe, or the rest of the beer drinking world? Wiki's current article on malt liquor mentions almost nothing about it, with the article being 99.9% about American beers. If this beer style is other places, can anyone put an international spin on the article? --Brownings 17:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Malt Liquor is a strong lager. Strong lagers occur in most beer brewing areas - Asia, Australia, Africa and Europe. There will be different names - Bock, Strong Lager, etc - and there will be variations from region to region and brewer to brewer in terms of adjuncts, quality, process, hop levels, etc. But what an American calls a Malt Liquor will be found in the UK and throughout Europe. Carlsberg Special Brew is probably one of the better known examples. SilkTork 20:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Beer

The intention of a Portal is a quick guide or launch-pad to a subject for readers and editors. It can be a place where casual readers may be introduced to the basics of a subject. Or a more serious student may use it as a base from which to explore different aspects. It can be linked to a Project so that editors can be kept informed on the latest issues, or areas which need attention.

The Beer Portal was started by myself in February, and then given a make over by Feydey. But it never really took off. In November a template was created which links to the Beer Portal. BrokenStoic has been placing the template on various beer articles to draw people's attention to the Portal. People may wish to get involved in several ways:

1. Editing the Beer Portal.
2. Keeping the Beer Portal up to date.
3. Placing the {{portal|Beer}} template on beer article pages. (It should be noted that the guideline for placing the template is that it should be "located at article ends in See also sections (or equivalents)." See: Wikipedia:Portal)
4. Checking out other Portals to see what is good practice and feeding back to the Beer Project.

SilkTork 00:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Some of the other projects have a {{portal}} link in their WikiProject banner on the talk pages as well ({{Beer}} in this project's case). I could add it if people are interested.

Also, it is possible to change the image in the portal link using {{portal|Beer|Beer mug.svg}}. I'm not sure if the beer mug is too kitschy, but I thought I'd point it out. Mike Dillon 01:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Brewery notability

I've now moved the discussion on brewery notability out to a wider audience: Wikipedia:Notability (breweries). As well as discussion on the associated talk page, I would encourage people to edit the proposal itself. SilkTork 22:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Bryncelyn Brewery DYK

I created Bryncelyn Brewery yesterday and think it's a candidate for Wikipedia:Did You Know. In the discussion, though, one person has requested the article be expanded. I'm not near my paper sources right now, though, and won't be until the 3rd of January or so. Any help -- especially a Good Beer Guide quote or two -- would be appreciated. --Stlemur 06:27, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a good article, well referenced, and an example of how even a minor brewery can be presented in a format that can make it notable. I have visited the place and was shown the brewery in the cellar. I have some photos, which I'll dig out, but if I remember I appear grinning in all of them, so they might not be suitable! Also (ssshh) the photos reveal that cask breathers are used on all the beers. It's only a small pub in a rural community - there's not enough beer sold to clear a cask in three days. SilkTork 15:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Beer Style Chart

Someone has added what appears to be a very hastily thrown together chart on the Beer style page. I think it looks crude and is not very accurate or easily edited. For these reasons I plan to edit it out unless someone has a major issue with it. (Full Disclosure-I have been working on the beer style box, which pretty much covers the same info.)--BrokenStoic 07:55, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't like it. User:Alejo2083 placed it on the beer page, and I moved it to the style page, with a comment that it is one possible view out of many. Stlemur has taken it off the beer page following the above comment. I have put it back on the beer style page for the time being so people can see what we talking about. BrokenStoic did the right thing in raising the issue here. When there is a possible contentious issue it is best to raise the issue and then wait for a response. That way we avoid revert wars. SilkTork 08:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm in the act of writing up some suggestions for it on the talk page now. --Stlemur 08:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

There are positives and negatives about using a style chart. The positive is that many people can grasp things better though a visual representation - especially when there are complex families concerned, as with the standard views of how to represent beer styles. The negative is that the chart is fixed and not easy to edit. The current chart is one possible variation out of many. Some beer styles are simply variations on a theme and can be seen as simply different names for the same thing - Scotch Ale, Barley Wine, English Strong Ale for example are three different names for the same beer style. Variations within English Strong Ale, Barley Wine and Scotch Ale cross over each other so much that attempts to define one against the other turn on personal experience and preference rather than any globally accepted template. I am not in favour of any form of fixed box. Though I can see an argument in favour of one or two charts represented in the context of examples of how some people may want to represent beer styles.

Here is another interesting beer chart: [6]

SilkTork 15:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I created this chart nobody liked, but I still think it will be useful (after a discussion to improve it). We'd better keep on discussing this subject on Talk:Beer_style. See you there Alessio Damato 17:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 22:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Project/Participant/Collaboration page

I've taken some initial steps to make the main project page look more attractive. I have moved the participant list to a participant page, and following Daniel11's suggestion in October, made a collaboration page. SilkTork 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to encourage using the WikiProject Beer participants category for this instead of maintaining any list. The only thing the list adds is the ability to add comments that end up being of dubious ongoing value to the project. Mike Dillon 01:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The original list is now out of date. When I've contacted people on that list in the summer, only a fraction responded. So it would be worthwhile for people to add their name to Mike's new list so we can see who is active and interested. SilkTork 01:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added my name. What I like about it is that it is discrete - there's no user box or glowing tag. SilkTork 01:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

For those who aren't familiar with user categories, there are instructions on how to add yourself on the category description page itself. Also, if people did want a userbox that did this automatically, it's easy enough to create; I'm just not a fan of userboxes that add user categories and didn't choose that as the default mechanism for addition. Mike Dillon 01:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Archiving

2006 up to the end of November has been archived. The link is at the top of the page. SilkTork 01:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

New category

Because some brands and breweries cover more than one region I have created a new category: Category:Beer and breweries in multi regions. Have fun! SilkTork 23:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea, I'm not crazy about the name; CAMRA calls these "International breweries" in the Good Beer Guide and lists the following eleven active in Britain as of 2007:

• Anheuser-Busch Done.
• Carlsberg Done
• Coors Brewing Company Done
• White Shield Brewery (with an asterisk; White Shield is owned by Coors and trades through them, but is brewed independently)
• Guinness (Diageo) Done
• InBev Done
• Scottish & Newcastle Done
• Berkshire Brewery
• Federation Brewery
• Royal Brewery
• John Smith's Brewery British brewery owned by a multi region brewing company.

The criterion for inclusion seems to be ownership of at least one brewery outside the UK, or ownership by a parent company that owns breweries in multiple countries, but this isn't explicitly stated in the GBG. Even so, I propose it as the criterion for inclusion in this category. --Stlemur 07:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

• I know what you mean about the name. However I thought it would be helpful to keep the name in line with the existing names - "Beer and breweries in XXXX"; and the main cat is "Beer and breweries by region". A region may be a nation, a country, a geographical area, a continent, etc. The flexibility of "region" as opposed to "country" or "nation" is one of the reasons it was chosen for the main cat. My first thought was "Global breweries", but that is clearly not right either. SilkTork 22:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Guidelines

I've placed links on the Project page to Guideline pages in which we can formulate advise on how best to create and lay out articles on beer. I've made a start on beer brands: Wikipedia:WikiProject Beer/Beer brand article guidelines. Please jump in and help out! SilkTork 23:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Color box

Color based on Standard Reference Method (SRM)

SRM/Lovibond	Example	Beer color	EBC
2	Pale lager, Witbier, Pilsener, Berliner Weisse		4
3	Maibock, Blonde Ale		6
4	Weissbier		8
6	American Pale Ale, India Pale Ale		12
8	Weissbier, Saison		16
10	English Bitter, ESB		20
13	Bière de Garde, Double IPA		26
17	Dark lager, Vienna lager, Märzen, Amber Ale		33
20	Brown Ale, Bock, Dunkel, Dunkelweizen		39
24	Irish Dry Stout, Doppelbock, Porter		47
29	Stout		57
35	Foreign Stout, Baltic Porter		69
40+	Imperial Stout		79

Turns out ProMash has an SRM-to-RGB table buried in it. I know nothing about WP table format, so please, please, plesae spiff this up. It's currently in Standard Reference Method; should we turn it into a template? --Stlemur 00:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I would favour a wikilink to the SRM article rather than have the table copied onto beer pages. So if people want to make a reference to a beer's colour and wish to use the SRM, they could say: "This beer is black, or level 40 on the Standard Reference Method." SilkTork 16:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we'd make heavy use of it, just in Standard Reference Method, Beer style and maybe one or two other places. I just think it might make a useful template so when we update it we don't have to update the table in every instance of its appearance. --Stlemur 19:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Created, Template:Beer color --Stlemur 20:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Henry Weinhard's

An anonymous editor changed the infobox for Henry Weinhard's to indicate the company is located in Seattle. Formerly it was Portland. Is this change correct? —EncMstr 17:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

BeerAdvocate says:

Blitz-Weinhard Brewing Co., 506 Columbia St, Hood River, Oregon, 97031, United States

-=Stlemur 17:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The official site says "Hood River, OR" as well. —Wrathchild ^(talk) 18:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The company was bought over by Miller, so some of the brands are brewed by Miller, and some of the brands are contract brewed by Full Sail. BeerAdvocate has Full Sail as the brewery, though it doesn't show that some brands are brewed by Miller. RateBeer divides the brands between Miller and Full Sail. Henry Weinhard's brands used to be brewed in the Tumwater brewery, Seattle but that closed in 2003. Anyway - where is the company located? Well, the brand owner is Miller, who are based in Milwaukee; some of the beers are brewed in Oregon by Full Sail; Miller presents the "Blitz-Weinhard Brewing Co" as being based in Oregon (as that is where the original brewery was based); and some brands are brewed in Milwaukee. It's a muddle. But anyway - the beers haven't been brewed in Seattle since 2003. SilkTork 23:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

New category

Category:Beer awards. Have fun. SilkTork 13:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

User Box

I've just changed the image on the User Box. I'm not sure about it yet. It's just that I'm a little uncertain about the cartoon image. Any preferences? Any other images we might use? SilkTork 17:41, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Mass removal of Beer Advocate links

User:Beetstra has been removing the {{BeerAdvocate-brewery}} links from brewery articles en masse. His claim is that they are on some sort of spam blacklist, which they are not. I've asked him to stop, but there's a lot of damage to be repaired. Αργυριου (talk) 22:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

(copy answer from my talkpage, slight refactor) Hi, thank you for your question. First of all, the brewery site is blacklisted on user:shadowbot (not on user:shadow), indeed, there is no list there, but after one of the owners of the site added the link to a large number of pages today, the site was blacklisted.

Furthermore, which information does e.g. this link give me, that should be linked, but what cannot be included? As far as I see it is an address, and a list of beers they sell, a banner, and a whole set of extra links. Furthermore, the site is not the official brewery site (who undoubtedly has the same data on its site), but is a commercial external link. I don't see how this is meaningful, relevant content.

Now we are talking about it. In which way is this site dissimilar from www.ratebeer.com, I am also seeing quite a lot of these links, used in a similar manner? Hope to hear more, have a nice day! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 23:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no confirmation in the history of User:Shadowbot/Blacklist requests to indicate addition of Beer Advocate to the blacklist, and it's not on, or even discussed on, the meta blacklist. Can you point to a contributions page where this alleged spamming is occurring?

The list at the Beer Advocate page you linked includes trivia like the alcohol content of the beers, street address for the brewery, and links to copyrighted reviews. The collection of the data in the table possibly falls under a compilation copyright, and thus recopying the table without links is not permissible.

There is no policy against commercial links being used in Wikipedia, so long as the content is freely accessible. (Pay sites are strongly discouraged, but the links are not for a pay site.) WP:EL suggests linking to directories like DMOZ; for beers, Beer Advocate is the best directory link available. Αργυριου (talk) 23:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Not all blacklisting goes through the blacklist request. When the spamming is ongoing, operators can add the link at the moment the spamming is occuring. For the person adding the links, see Special:Contributions/66.31.138.220. Apparently the site has commercial interests enough to let one of the owners of the site trying to make sure all the pages were 'consistent' (I am trying to get a link for the unblock request, I will post that here if and when I get that).

I am sure that the official brewery site also lists the alcohol content of the beers, as well as the address. So the only information that is left is links to copyrighted reviews. If I click on one of the beers I don't get professional reviews, but maybe I don't see the copyrighted reviews. And I am not sure if they can have a compilation copyright about the list of beers they sell, that is freely available from the company website, there is no way beeradvocate can claim that as copyrighted. Moreover, WP:EL states, under links normally to be avoided: "Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services. For example, instead of linking to a commercial bookstore site, use the "ISBN" linking format, giving readers an opportunity to search a wide variety of free and non-free book sources." If I see the banners correctly, beeradvocate is primarily to sell the magazine, and for what it matters www.ratebeer.com is similar to that, which would make that site also not appropriate. Hope this explains. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 23:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't access the unblock-en-l myself, so I cannot provide you with that link. I have for now stopped with removing the link, though I believe that they should be removed, per WP:NOT/WP:EL. But I will await further discussion (but will also do some further research). (copied here from talkpage) --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 00:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm stll not seeing any reason to remove the links... --Stlemur 03:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, if you believe that WP:NOT#REPOSITORY (not a linkfarm) and WP:EL, links to avoid, 1 (the information is not unique), 2 (unverifyable research), 5 (objectionable amounts of advertising , the site is commercial) and maybe even 10 (the reviews are not 'official', this is more a blog where anyone can post his opinion) is not enough reason, then I will leave it for now. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Linking to the biggest single beer community in the world which is also the biggest single database I know of isn't linkfarming; I don't see anything on WP:EL that applies, the information is not unique, 5 is at worst borderline (there aren't any popups or anything!), and while 10 applies to the reviews and forums it doesn't apply to the brewery info, style guidelines, beer articles, or I would go so far as to say the aggregate score. Furthermore, there still isn't anything I can see supporting the assertion that BeerAdvocate links are blacklisted somewhere. --Stlemur 13:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Be Consistent Or Remove All Links

Just wanted to point out that all brewery and beer pages here should have a link to Ratebeer.com and BeerAdvocate.com or all of the links form both sites should be removed. There are members of Ratebeer.com that have it our for BeerAdvocate.com so Wikipedia needs to work something out.

There have been many edits to the beer ratings page here with false postings. I'd love to see someone here that is not a part of either site edit all beer related pages here.

FYI, our external link was removed from this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer

You should either put it back or remove all others.

You guys seem bit jaded and see everything as black and white without balance and no gray area. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jalstromer (talk • contribs)

Are you Jason Alström from BeerAdvocate? Mike Dillon 02:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am Jason Alström. FYI, take a look at this ... http://beermapping.com/forum/index.php?topic=152.0

Please advise us on what will or won't happen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jalstromer (talk • contribs)