Talk:2007 New Zealand raids

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Links[edit]

Phgao 10:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Radio NZ coverage[edit]

Theres been some really good coverage on Radio New Zealand's Morning Report, heaps of interviews. The MP3's are available here. If someone coul dadd some of the information into the article that would be usefull.

Lossenelin 21:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Reaction[edit]

All of this is negative reaction from the left fringe, despite quite a few positive responses from the other end of the spectrum. Anyone care to balance the article? Winstonwolfe 07:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll look at adding some reaction from those who support the raids, althought I haven't come across any yet. It's like those who support the move are waiting for the full facts to come out, while those who are critical have already jumped on the issue, at least it seems to be. Gazzatude —Preceding comment was added at 11:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The following was deleted earlier from the 'Reaction' section: Socialist organisation The Workers Party realesed a statement condeming the raids as "state violence." And; (Maori Party) Co-leader Pita Sharples said the action has violated the trust that has been developing between Maori and Pakeha and sets race-relations back a hundred years.

Can I get an explanation as to why? if not I'll add it back in (both these statements had sources by the way). Lossenelin 00:29, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably a mistaken merge. Although, while Wikipedia may have no size constraints, the article would probably read better if we kept the reactions section to minor parties and groups, rather than minor insignificant unregistered minor parties. John Nevard 01:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'll stick the comments of Pita Sharples in again. I think the comments of the Greens and NZ first should be added to. Lossenelin 04:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the text entirely by accident. I was intending to fix a typo, and somehow edited an old version by mistake. Sorry. I've restored it.-gadfium 06:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Caching of refs[edit]

Most news sites don't keep stories for ever. In particular, stuff.co.nz doesn't keep stories for more than a week or so. I don't know exactly what their retention policy is, and it might vary according to which newspaper published the story. In any case, one ref in this article, to a Manawatu Standard story, is already no longer available. Radio New Zealand seems to keep material for one year, and the New Zealand Herald keeps material indefinitely, although it used to be that material with URLs returned from their internal search engine disappeared quickly.

The Internet Archive sometimes can retrieve articles which have disappeared from the web, but it doesn't seem to include news sites such as stuff.

I am adding the external refs to a site called WebCite, as suggested in Wikipedia:Citing sources#What to do when a reference link "goes dead". This has to be done while the story is still available. Once added to WebCite, the story is available indefinitely through the WebCite url I'm adding to the refs.

I suggest editors bear this in mind for other articles in Wikipedia they contribute to.-gadfium 00:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


Anyone support the raids?[edit]

I've been trying to keep the article balanced but am having trouble finding groups/parties or prominent people who support the raids, anyone know of any? I hear Chris Trotter supported them but can't find his column online, anyone have the print edition of the Dom Post it was in? Lossenelin 06:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The Trotter piece is here [1]

Quadparty 08:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Strange question. I imagine a lot of people - apart from the then Government and police - supported the raids. Turning the question around, who opposed them? The terrorists involved, and civil rights groups, who did not know what had been going on in the hills. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 07:44, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Current?[edit]

I notice the "current" tag was removed (with a reasonable rationale provided). I suggest that it be returned. The article is being constantly updated with new reaction, protests etc. The raids themselves are over, but the other matters are not - this is an ongoing story with new matters happening daily, and, I suggest, this means that the story is still current. Thoughts? Objections to adding the tag back? Quadparty 00:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest we add a current template just to the "reaction" section. The court cases of those arrested are still current events too, though theres little information about them yet (I think they are all appering in court on the 2nd) that could probably be another section with a current tag as well. Lossenelin 03:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


Revealing names[edit]

I think we should we revealing the names in this article, the people arrested are part of the event. Often these days Wikipedia is the first point of call for people looking for infromation and I think the names of people arrested are relevent informaiton. Also, there was a seperate article on those arrested but when it was nominated for deletion the consensus was to merge it with this article Lossenelin 20:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. Most of these people are not notable other than for the events around these charges. In future years, the news reports will no longer be readily found in a Google search, but this Wikipedia article will. To have the names at present may be okay since these people are currently in the news, but I suggest we consider removing them in a year or two to preserve their privacy. This doesn't apply to Tame Iti, who is sufficiently well known that there are no privacy issues involved.-gadfium 21:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats a good point, I think while this article is being used as news by people (rather than as history as it will in a year or so) the names should be there, but would support removing non-notable names sometime in the future Lossenelin 21:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. WP:BLP1E seems relevant to this- names may add value to the article now, but in the future they are likely to become less useful (as a starting point for research, whatever). John Nevard 04:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Rebalancing article in view of leaked police surveillance material[edit]

It seems to be generally agreed that the article has a large left wing anti-police bias, especially as the activities of the plotters seem to be confused with the sweeping powers in the Terrorism Suppression amendment bill, when the two are at best only tangentially related. There has been difficulty getting anyone to rebalance, (certainly I don't feel qualified to). However now that information about the plots is more widely known, perhaps someone could take the material available from e.g. [2] and use insert some balance in the article? Winstonwolfe 03:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this is "genearally agreed" as there has been almost no discussion on the talk page about it, having the article include how the left reacted doesn't make the article itself left-wing (see Wikipedia:NPOV), remember it also includes the views of Chris Trotter (who calls himself left but is pro the raids) and NZ First who have been very supportive of the police. I make no secret that my personal politics are on the left, but I'm all for the article being balanced. However we should be carefull with publishing any of the leaked evidence as it may be contempt of court, if someone can dig up statements from the police, or groups or prominent individuals that supported the raids they should be included though. Lossenelin 04:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The material published by the Dominion Post consists of the most sensational snippets from a very large amount of evidence. If the potential for contempt of court disappears, we should link to them anyway, but a balancing view is needed too. In case the material is withdrawn from the stuff website, I've found cached copies at [3], [4] [5] and [6].-gadfium 05:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough on the "generally agreed" - couple of people said it, and no one contradicted them.
On this issue, if not any other I can think of, I find myself in the very worrying position of actually agreeing with Winston Peters, (if I start rambling about wine box conspiracies, please phone the nearest psychiatric crisis team for me). Although the media like to take the most controversial and extreme material, I do not know of any certain evidence that the Dominion post has done so in this case - is that specualtion? (granted probably correct speculation though, if what was printed is correct, edited lowlights or not, the evidence put forward is pretty damning). I believe the affadavit obtained by One Network News (which is not the one used in otaining warrants, but does come from the some what dubious source of 'a convicted fraudster') is not subject to any suppression order at the moment and seems to put much of the same material in the public arena. [7] I suspect though it is the same dodgy source used by Investigate magazine. I haven't seen the Christchurch Press material, but assume it was similar if not identical to the Dominion. Am laying odds on how long it takes a paper to make a Smith's Dream / Sleeping Dogs reference. :-) Winstonwolfe 07:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
A Sleeping Dogs reference was made on Radio NZ's Mediawatch as early as October 21, they played the audio from the fake news broadcast and the host then said something like "watching the media this week you could be forgiven for believing C.K. Steads bleak vision had become true" (mp3) Lossenelin 02:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
In the end, Wikipedia's hosted in America. Have seen in the past that disclosure of information where it isn't quite legally kosher in other countries tends not to lead to consequences, though I see how it could, potentially, make those of you with personally identifying data on your userpages subject to legal threats. Of course, it would be easier to consider the leaks if there was a full copy of the affidavit, say here. John Nevard 08:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Map[edit]

  • Would it be wise for me or someone else to do a map pinpointing the locations of the raids or just have a general map of NZ?? (♠Taifarious1♠) 08:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
A map showing the location of the action would be very valuable. A general map of New Zealand is of limited value. Grimhim (talk) 11:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The raids were scattered but the police had a heavy concentration at Ruatatuna the main Tuhoe village which is about 2km off State Highway 38 which runs between Rotorua and the "gang" town of Wairoa.The mountain ranges are The Ikawhenua Range to the north west and Huiarau Range to the south east. Most of the mountain land is in the Urewera National Park which is about 30km east-west and 50km north -south. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 21:58, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

unbalanced[edit]

i too think this article is unbalanced. eg, there is no description of the rationale that fairfax cited when publishing the leaked documents, but only the opinion of some lawyer, that it was just to make more sales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.3.84.124 (talk) 10:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

What was their rational? (and a source for it) it should probably be added Lossenelin (talk) 22:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Intro[edit]

The introduction of the article doesn't say what "terrorists" these are. The term "terrorist" is broad, since a terrorist can be anything; resistant, independentist, leftist, neo-nazi, islamic and whatnot. We need to read the article to understand that they are environmentalists. I think this should be specified in the intro, especially in our times when terrorist is often a synonym with Islamic extremists or whatever. Munin75 (talk) 00:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The lead section doesn't describe the targets of the raids as "terrorists", or anything else. It might be hard to summarise briefly, as I understand a mixed bag of people were targeted. The highest profile one is a Maori separatist, but anarchists and environmentalists were also targeted. --Avenue (talk) 01:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Update?[edit]

An {{Update}} tag was added back in May 2010: does any one know what needs updated? I'm in the UK so haven't been following NZ news that closely for a couple of years. If someone could let me know what needs updated I'd be OK with doing the updating... failing that, can we remove the tag? TFOWR 14:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, (possibly) answered my own question - the breakdown of the talks between Ngāi Tūhoe and the Crown over the Ureweras? I'll see what I can dig up. I also copy-edited for tense - a lot of the prose seemed to date to the immediate aftermath of the raids. TFOWR 15:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

No jury trial[edit]

Has anyone seen anything from a neutral source about reports that the Urewera 18 will not be tried before a jury? I've seen plenty from partisan sources (sample here: [8] ) but haven't been able to find references to this on the Stuff or NZ Herald web sites. Daveosaurus (talk) 10:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Likewise. I became aware of this through Idiot/Savant's blog at No Right Turn, and also saw Russell Brown's comments at Hard News, but nothing we can use as a source for the article.-gadfium 20:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
And just one day later, the Herald has an article: [9].-gadfium 17:49, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The reason for the supression of information has also been suppressed!A news item said a spokesperson had said "it was in the public interest" to suppres information without saying who the person was.The implication was that it was the supreme court who wanted the info suppressed as it followed various items of info from that court. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 21:16, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Raids[edit]

The description of the initial raids basically refers only to the boarding of a school bus - which was not part of the raids. Is nothing known about the actual raids? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 07:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that most of this material is still under suppression and is likely to remain so until it's raise in open court or there is a conviction. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The raids were Nz wide-mainly in the North Island.The 18 suspects(now 17 as 1 died)were not training in the Urewera Mountains at the time of the raids.One (or the main?) training base was a well known Tuhoe Mountain whare(hut) base within line of sight of the village.From the TV pics I would estimate it was only 3km away as the crow flies .The Ureweras is an area of low broken hill country covered by thick native bush adjacent to the Tuhoe village.Traditionally and in modern times Tuhoe have used this asa "private " hunting ground. Some non Maori hunters who are legally entitled to hunt there have been warned off by armed Tuhoe hunters. The base used by the suspects was on one of the lower foothills.The court has said(sept 2011) that all 30,000 pages of police evidence and information about the evidence is suppressed-it took about a year to gather that info.A lot was apparently from phone taps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.97.148 (talk) 21:29, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

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Police claims repeated by the NZ Herald[edit]

Before anyone re-adds Police claims from the NZ Herald article in question as if they were reliably sourced fact they should note that the actual wording of the allegations in the article is "an object believed to be a Molotov cocktail". I do not consider this sufficient for a statement of fact to be made about the object itself in Wikipedia's voice. Daveosaurus (talk) 05:30, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Note also that at least one of the judges in the recent appeal stated that the police acted with deliberate unlawfulness in this investigation. Stuartyeates (talk) 05:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Assassination target was George W Bush[edit]

According to the exerts shown on Maori TV recently,the terrorists planned to kill Bush by catapaulting a bus onto his head.The backup plan was to catapault a car onto his head.According to a report on the exerts the evidence was accompagnied by loud laughter from the lawyers and court officials present.I have not been able to find the origins of the clips that Maori Tv showed.Anyone help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.198.245 (talk) 21:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

There are similar comments in [13] Stuartyeates (talk) 23:33, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Renaming from "2007 New Zealand anti-terror raids"[edit]

I'm not sure why the article was moved, they continue to be called "anti-terror raids" in the media, and that seems like a much better name for them. Stuartyeates (talk) 21:37, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the renaming was unnecessary, and should have been proposed rather than done unilaterally.-gadfium 22:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree that it should have been discussed beforehand but I also see the point as per the edit summary that the current title (clumsy as it is) is more NPOV as the findings of the Court at present fall far short of anything I would consider terrorism - at least on the part of the defendants. I suggest that a neutral title like "2007 Urewera raids" or "2007 Te Urewera raids" would be more appropriate. Daveosaurus (talk) 05:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
The raids were anti-terror raids and there is strong support in the sources across the board for that. I'd be surprised at anyone disputing their anti-terror nature. Whether the activities that were bought to a halt by the raids were terrorist activities is a completely seperate matter, on which there is a great deal of dispute. Since this article is on the raids not the activities, I see no problem with the original title, in particular since that's what they were called at the time in the mainstream press. For the duration of the recent trial they've been the "Urewera raids" in the mainstream press, because all the alleged offending occurred there, but the raids were much more widespread than the Urewera. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:18, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The sensationalist mass media coverage describing "anti-terror raids" is no more neutral than the description of the raids themselves by left-wing critics as "terror raids", and the Police carrying them out as "terrorists". These raids were the concluding act of the NZ Police surveillance operation known as Operation 8, so it seems to me that a NPOV title for this article would be "Operation 8 raids". Strypey — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.98.184.171 (talk) 07:55, 10 August 2013 (UTC)