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Cite Pool

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  • Students
    • Nunez, Elizabeth. "Venezuela Students Spur Protest Movement". The Washington Post. The Associated Press. (relates to RCTV)
    • Miller Llana, Sara. "Venezuela's students lead anti-Chávez charge". "The Christian Science Monitor". (related to referendum)
    • "Chavez Rallies Support For Venezuela Reform". 2007-12-01. Retrieved 2007-12-08.
    • "Bolivarian students are marching to Chávez's government headquarters". El Universal. 2007-11-21. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |accsesdate= ignored (help)
    • "Defeat for Hugo Chávez: The wind goes out of the revolution". The Economist. December 6, 2007. Retrieved 2007-12-06. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Query

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Sandy: numerous edit conflicts. Are you working on this? I can move it to my sandbox Xavexgoem (talk) 15:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's all I can do for now; it's all yours :-) I'll check in later. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

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This doesn't have to be addressed immediately, and we can wait for others (hopefully JRSP) to weigh in, but this article is incorrectly titled, because it doesn't allow for May 2007 RCTV protests. There were other 2007 Venezuela demonstrations, so this article title needs to somehow distinguish between the two. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dunno...devote this entirely to 2007 protests, and a header for referendum protests? Xavexgoem (talk) 16:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about this yet; it's not urgent. I left a note for JRSP, and we'll figure it out soon enough. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Present title is too general. Small scale demonstrations happen in Venezuela on a daily basis, people take seriously their right to demonstrate here. We must think on a title focusing on the bigger demonstrations and on the student movements. JRSP (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please hold off on name changes until we can all decide on a long-term solution; there are several articles that are poorly named, and we need to correct them once and for all. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Context

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Not good at this bit. Currently, the November bits read like prose and don't offer anything about the yes and no voters. I think I can manage the student bit to some degree (quotes, in particular, and good cites); but the "Yes" voters remain somewhat in the dark, and the only cites for them (VA, et al) are unreliable, or I haven't found them yet. Not my strong point. Help? Note: I've added comments in the edit if that helps any Xavexgoem (talk) 16:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Elaboration: I'm not entirely sure what context I'm looking for. Surely there are many good sources on other Venezuela articles about why people would be voting yes. The no votes make sense in more ways than one, so that isn't much trouble. Do I want context for the protests (jubilent, riotous, etc), or do I want context to explain why people are voting this way or that (poor, freedom, etc)? Xavexgoem (talk) 16:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

oops, edit conflict, lost my response. I can't recall if you read Spanish? The context, basically, for the yes voters is that Chavez is perceived to be their only hope (correctly or not), they felt/were ignored by previous administrations and/or the Chavez opposition, and Chavez has given them a lot of handouts; for all of these reasons and others you'll find in the sources (like some less benevolent ones, such as, implications that you may be fired if you don't support me), they support his ideals even if they didn't support the perceived "power grab" of the referendum. There are tidbits about that throughout all of the sources linked back in the main article, but you have to be certain to maintain balance on both sides. You can touch on the hope that Chavez offered his supporters, well covered in the sources. One of the difficult things to get used to on Wiki is to orient yourself away from what you want to write (clear your mind :-), and just pour through all the sources and summarize what reliable sources say. The info you seek is out there in all those sources, but you just have to sort through all of them—it's very time consuming :-) The problems with the earlier WP:SOAPBOX articles occurred because editors just wrote what they wanted to say, rather than focusing on due weight according to reliable sources. I believe there is some good info in the Spanish sources listed on the talk page of the other article. I can dig in to help you tonight, but I have a long app't this afternoon, so I can't get much done today. I suggest starting by digging back through and reading all of the sources on the other article (talk page and in the article), and you'll probably find more info there than you think. JRSP tends to pop in later in the day, so hopefully he'll give you some help in my absence. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, thanks for your help. It'll be a while then before I update this particular bit. Interestingly, this is the only bit of Spanish I remember from high school: no hablo español ;) Xavexgoem (talk) 16:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, ok, I'll try to help you tonight, but I've got a ton of stuff on my plate and I really want to address the imbalances in the other article ASAP (so little time, so much to do!). It would be nice if some of the other bilingual editors, who are so quick to delete text from the other article without discussion, would instead come over here and help you build text ... deleting is easy, building is hard.  :-)) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, X, I really encourage you to just dig in and write; don't worry about mistakes. This isn't a high profile article, it's not linked on the main page, and you should be bold here and just do what you can. Nobody is judging :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

having difficulty summarizing the extent the student movement had on the overall opposition. I can name a few reasons (uni direct votes, "spoiled brat" reference) but I'm interested to know exactly why the students had such power (so to speak) in the first place. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't have a one- or two-sentence answer, X; it involves the entire recent history of Venezuela, and if you don't know that part, we can't quickly fill you in. Basically, the students were important because EVERYONE was sick of the old political parties, the new opposition bothced everything, and the students weren't affiliated with the old or new parties and opposition. They were a new, fresh voice for democracy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm on the wrong track then. I need someone to fill in the blanks, because currently I have Students are opposed for x reason, y reason, and z reason (or whatever), and I need x+y+z, if you follow me. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
X, the way I work on Wiki is I read the reliable sources to extract and summarize text according to due weight as reflected across all sources. It is time-consuming hard work; what you would have to do to write this article is the same thing I would do: start reading all the sources, extract the valuable summary. There's no shortcut :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I have a while to think about it :) I'll be off for a while Xavexgoem (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Summarized fairly better. I'm not finding a cite (Spanish?) that connects students to the university proposals, which I figure are important. Xavexgoem (talk) 23:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revert

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If you'd prefer, I can take this into the sandbox, Sm8900. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would appreciate it. your suggestion sounds fair and reasonable. i appreciate your helpful tone. thanks. i feel it might be better and more beneficial to create the full article elsewhere, than putting up interim versions which lack information. thanks very much. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:11, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The previous versions were no better than the current. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
gosh, thanks so much. so it's better to remove coherent, sourced, valid information, just to improve the formatting. sorry if the subheadings were in the wrong place.
sorry for the sarcasm, but I don't udnerstand your approach. so your approach to improving this is to remove 80% of the content? please explain. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the version before X started working on it; if you can identify valuable, sourced text accorded due weight, you can retrieve it from there. What I see there is unsourced text, accorded undue weight, in need of cleanup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see the problem now. Here is the version which I prefer. i didn;t realize that someone else had added all that crap with sentence fragments, and about toilets, the door of the Student Center, etc. I would prefer to restore some material from the version i cited, and may do so at some point. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If possible, can you hold on a revert? Although this isn't the best article _as it stands_, it's not entirely intended for this article in the first place. It's more a jumping ground for text to be added into the main referendum article. There are already discussions on the validity of this article at all, so... I dunno. What do you say? Xavexgoem (talk) 18:24, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, i can do that. Any changes which i make will not be a revert, but will be additions of text, so I don't just make wholesale changes. By the way, this article is clearly valid, as it relates to a tangible and notable news event, affecting thousands of people. Anyone debating its validity may have their own views on the best ways to present this, but at Wikipedia, I would suggest that you can;t remove valid historical articles just over style differences.--Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It wasn't the style that bothered me, just the strange sentence jumbles. Too much attention to student incident, etc. and not enough cites. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The validity of this article isn't questioned; it just needs a better title (see above).[1] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

X, I restored the section below (you shouldn't comment out talk page entries :-) Steve, that version has almost nothing that isn't already covered at Venezuelan constitutional referendum, 2007, which is linked to. X is attempting to write the article about the November demonstrations here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't do the comment. Also, I'm off in about 15 minutes. So please add on, anyone. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Still need info on how/why students became so important to the opposition, too, or at least a summary. Brain's tired again. Xavexgoem (talk) 18:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

article shortening

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Excuse me. WHO removed all the valuable information from this article?!!! HOW is it improving an article to cut out 80% of the content?!!! please reply. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What valuable content? The undue weight poorly sourced editorializing? Please clarify and list here any well sourced content accorded to due weight that needs to be re-added. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
thanks for your reply; this is addressed above. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done summarizing

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I think this is fair. Not much content, and missing an important citation, though. But concise, imo Xavexgoem (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sandy, I don't think I can contribute much more past this point. I'm really sorry; I don't mean to leave this article hanging, but I'm getting in over my head atm on this subject. I wish I had more experience with writing articles, and especially Venezuela in general. You've been an invaluable help to me and these articles. I know much more than I did. If I wander past sources or find vandals, or whatever, I'll certainly continue to contribute in a more wiki-gnomish way. Xavexgoem (talk) 22:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't give up yet, X; you made a very good start and your initiation was with an article on the mainpage!! I regret that I didn't help you more, but I too have been utterly swamped the last few days. I still haven't been able to finish the main article !! Hang in there, keep working, drop me a message on my talk page if you ever need help back on this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No worries! I hear you're an admin, so I imagine your plate is VERY full! Your guidance was exemplary. All I'm saying is that, for the time being, I will not be editing this article unless I come across something. I'll check back in and yada yada, but I can't contribute much more. What bothers me is the main referendum page, which remains unbalanced. I was hoping to, at any rate, summarize a little bit. I can't do much more than that for the time being. Xavexgoem (talk) 23:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not an admin, and never wanted to be one :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A problem I have is needing to dig deeper. CP, Venanalysis, etc have reports on students in support of Chavez. My understanding of the student movement is this: It arose rather suddenly out of the RCTV shut-down, and has gained support throughout the country up to the referendum. What's important, imo, about the university incident is that there were pro-chavez students inside the building, and opposition students outside the building. There are plenty of RS about opposition marches held by students, and entirely unreliable sources about marches in support by students, at least in English. This would even things out considerably, and give context to the students as a whole. On the other hand, I have the option of making the "student movement" a monolithic mass... which would be easier, but I'd be lying to myself to say "students are against chavez/referendum". "some" students or "many" students wouldn't work because in either case I'd be diminishing their impact. Above anything else, I'd love a RS on students in support of the referendum. In the meantime, I will focus on the RCTV->Referendum outlook, if that makes sense. Xavexgoem (talk) 20:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Chavez Rallies Support For Venezuela Reform". 2007-12-01. Retrieved 2007-12-08. is one, but I don't know if it's reliable. 20:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
"Bolivarian students are marching to Chávez's government headquarters". 2007-11-21. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |accsesdate= ignored (help)

Okay, so I was wrong. Xavexgoem (talk) 20:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When can this be merged (so to speak) with the referendum article? It's brief, concise, and more focus has been given to the students. Xavexgoem (talk) 03:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you could merge in a summary now, but I'm still hoping this article will grow substantially :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. Is this a copy/paste job? Seems kind of redundant, but then there's the problem with the name of the article, etc.
Edit: Copy/paste + redoing refs

Xavexgoem (talk) 03:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And substantially how? :p Xavexgoem (talk) 03:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you can copy paste and then adjust, but for GFDL reasons, your edit summary must include a link to the article the text came from. Since you're summarizing it over to there, and adding a link back to here, be sure it's a summary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Finished, didn't need to mess with cites either. Will this do? Xavexgoem (talk) 04:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We're tag-less! Xavexgoem (talk) 04:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pics

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Hi i put some pics of students protests in venezuela --190.72.233.81 (talk) 18:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the hosing and the masked guy holding what appears to be a glue gun. The video of the campus incident is already provided (and I doubt info will be forthcoming as to it's real nature, so maybe best to steer clear from, imho). The hosing would be fine if it weren't for the lack of context. I don't know what party was participating in the mass demonstration, so I can't say for certain that the pics are balanced, but this is OK to me. Xavexgoem (talk) 08:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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