Talk:2021 Israel–Palestine crisis/Archive 1

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Timeline of events

This is not directed to any editor in particular, but I wanted to show what I think is a good summary of events, both for the background and the timeline. Also it looks impartial. In my humble opinion, the events in Sheikh Jarrah with the evictions are just excuses, or at least not the main reason for the unrest. The main reason for what's happening is the decision by Abbas to postpone Palestinian elections because he knew he would lose, which angered Hamas and now both sides in the Palestinian political arena (Hamas and Fatah) are using Israel as a scapegoat to advance their respective agendas, which is one of disturbance but without reaching a full-scale war.--SoaringLL (talk) 00:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I understand that is your opinion, but without a source it is WP:OR. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 08:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Agence France-Presse have an article here suggesting that Abbas "has drawn the ire of some protesters" and that "some east Jerusalem protesters have branded Abbas as a 'traitor'".

However, I would prefer to see a reliable source explicitly link the protestors motivations to the election postponement. It seems more likely that this would be a secondary cause than a main though. RoanokeVirginia (talk) 12:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Confirmation needed on Times of Israel source

I'm getting paywalled from checking this source, which currently verifies the sentence "Palestinian crowds threw stones, lit fires, chanted "Strike Tel Aviv" and "Jews, remember Khaybar, the army of Muhammad is returning", paraded Hamas flags and tore down police barricades on the mount.". Can someone check to make sure that info is indeed in the source? Thanks. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Prose of the article is very short, but contains:

• "Palestinian demonstrators also light a trash can on fire on Salah al-Din Street near the Damascus Gate as clashes with police intensify."
• "“Strike Tel Aviv,” they chant. “In spirit and in blood, we will redeem al-Aqsa.”"

and a link to this tweet. Dat Guy^Talk_Contribs 19:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

So no "Jews, remember Khaybar, the army of Muhammad is returning"? I'm removing that part. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 21:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Here is the link to the chant "Jews, remember Khaybar, the army of Muhammad is returning" whilst holding Hamas flags. Quote will be reverted. JoshRichards98 (talk) 21:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

So you added a quote without a source, based on a video you heard somewhere, and then linked to a paywalled story hoping it wouldn't be challenged. Would it have been more beneficial for the reader to add a link simply saying "Dude, trust me?" Always cite sources, especially with controversial topics such as this. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 21:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Aplogies this is an honest mistake and must have accidentally deleted the second source after formatting, however, are you sure the article is paywalled, as it is appearing fine with no restrictions currently? JoshRichards98 (talk) 21:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

You are correct, and I apologize. The article was shorter than I expected and ended with an advertisement (in yellow), making me think it was paywalled. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 22:25, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Suggested Move

Change this title to 2021 Israeli–Palestinian clashes because the clashes occurred in Jerusalem and Gaza Strip.Cerberon-900 (talk) 18:40, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Missing attribution for EU response

It should be added in the EU Forigen Affair message requested to stop Jewish worshippers from accessing an esplanade the full text is "The situation with regard to the evictions of Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah and other areas of East Jerusalem is a matter of serious concern. I want to repeat what we have already been saying: Such actions are illegal under international humanitarian law and only serve to fuel tensions on the ground. It is important that everything possible will be done to avoid fuelling tensions. And we note that the decision to stop Jewish worshippers from accessing the esplanade is a positive one that can calm the situation." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C281:1804:4500:7093:17CA:887E:BFDD (talk) 00:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Lynch attempt should be added to clashes

The Lynch attempt should be added to the clashes part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C281:1804:4500:7093:17CA:887E:BFDD (talk) 00:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Or how another source describes it as Israeli settler runs over Palestinians in occupied East Jerusalem. Regardless, I dont think that merits mention here. nableezy - 02:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

References

The wave of attacks against Haredi looking Jews had predated the ruling and should be added to the background

The Background ignore the two weeks of violance by Palestinains which was targeted against mostly Haredi looking just a few examples At some point it was even described as TikTok Intefada where Palestians would attack Jews and then upload this to TikTok, by Ignoring these waves of attacks the articale make it look as if it was appear out of thin air.

While that may be true, twitter is not a source that can be used to justify additions to this or any page as a rule. Wikipedia guidelines prefer to uphold what it views as 'reliability' even if that comes at the cost of factuality. Bgrus22 (talk) 00:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Even if you do not like the twitter footage, there are many other sources that describe it and even court rullings which I had linked in my comment. Out of 11 refernces you had only three twitter links 2A00:C281:1804:4500:7093:17CA:887E:BFDD (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

References

I am not disagreeing on the merits of those, but the twitter sources could not be a basis is all I am saying. Bgrus22 (talk) 10:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia were the terrorists narrative prevails, especially when it comes to Jews and Israel. Stop supporting terrorists (talk) 18:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Trying to set up a "they started it" argument is a bit pointless. Whichever incident(s) you like to pick someone else can just go further back in time and pick a different one. Anyway, for this article we go with what the reliable sources say was the proximate start, mainly Sheikh Jarrah.Selfstudier (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Factual error in the lead

The lead says "and over 20 Palestinians being killed" yet , they had been killed in Gaza after Gaza rocket attacks triggered an Israeli retalitation (from the article itself). The same should be put in the casualty box— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:c281:1804:4500:7093:17ca:887e:bfdd (talk) 00:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Include social media coverage

There used to be a mention of social media coverage in the article but now it seems to have been removed[1]. Wouldn't making a new subtitle under "Reactions" labeled "Social Media" be a better way to deal with the content rather than remove it? It is sourced properly and I do not see any problems in its inclusion. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 19:17, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done AllegedlyHuman (talk) 19:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2021 (3)

Change "On 13 May, Israeli airstrikes caused a 13-story residential tower in Gaza to collapse" to "On 11 May, Israeli airstrikes caused a 13-story residential tower in Gaza to collapse" in article summary, last sentence. (13 May is two days in the future). Chaelhen (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done Typo on my part, thanks for the catch. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 20:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021

Infobox caption "Skeikh Jarrah"? Grammar fix request Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 01:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done--Sakiv (talk) 01:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Perfect! Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 01:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021

(National reactions)

First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon condemned Israeli attacks on al-Aqsa as "utterly indefensible". ToeSchmoker (talk) 11:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Done: Added to the UK Reactions. DXLBandLokiBlaster 12:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2021

(Add to international reactions)

Germany – Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said via Twitter that "all sides have a duty to prevent further civilian casualties", and condemned the use of rocket fire on Israeli civilians. Mr. Lechkar (talk) 03:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: We should be working off secondary source coverage of statements, not primary sources like tweets. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Indonesia's Joko Widodo reaction

Indonesian President Joko Widodo expressed his reaction here on Twitter. secondary source in English. NFarras (talk) 15:23, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:RSPSS Anadolu Agency is not a reliable source for controversial topics or international politics. Do you know of a reliable secondary source for Widodo's remarks? It does not have to be in English. RoanokeVirginia (talk) 17:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for my late response. Here is the president statement via his website NFarras (talk) 13:01, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Mexican government´s reaction to the conflict

Can an authorized editor please add to the list of international reactions Mexico´s reaction to the conflict according to the Secretariat of Foreign Affairs´ tweet? Stturm (talk) 03:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2021

In the Background section, please change "On May 6, incendiary balloon attacks launched from Gaza setting off 6 fires" to "On May 6, incendiary balloon attacks launched from Gaza set off 6 fires" to correct a grammatical error Gimmethegepgun (talk) 00:23, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 00:34, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Rename

The clashes are not limited, or even centered around on Jerusalem now. With the Gaza crossfire going on, protests around the country, etc., 2021 Jerusalem clashes doesn't really fit the bill. The dead happened in Gaza and Ashkelon. I personally have no opinion on what it should be renamed however. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:6468:4049:4F65:6B1 (talk) 16:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I moved it, anyone has anything better?Selfstudier (talk) 16:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I think it should be hyphenated as Israeli–Palestinian as in other articles, for example Israeli–Palestinian conflict or Arab–Israeli conflict.

Also the name of the linked Commons category should be changed to match any title. RoanokeVirginia (talk) 17:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2021 (2)

"Which the Times of Israel described as supporting Hamas", there's clear video footage of them holding Hamas flags. JoshRichards98 (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

"Clashes"

Several prominent figures have criticized the usage of the word "clashes" in relation to this incident, calling it non-neutral: "This is not a "clash" between two equal sides. This is a straightforward attack by Israel on Palestinians." As of right now, this is the term used by the title of this article. Should it be changed? I want to hear some input first. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 05:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Seems like that's what all the references sources call it. No? | MK17b | (talk) 06:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Commondreams is not WP:RS to anything and clearly WP:UNDUE. Also please mind WP:SOAP Shrike (talk) 08:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

"Common Dreams is not WP:RS to anything" is not currently the opinion of WP:RSP. I also made no assertion about the neutrality or non-neutrality of the current title myself other than to point out that several people have challenged it, as reflected in that article. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 08:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

From the guidance at WP:TITLE: Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered... [s]ometimes that common name includes non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids (e.g. Alexander the Great, or the Teapot Dome scandal). In such cases, the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper noun (and that proper noun has become the usual term for the event), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue.

If your issue is that the word "clashes" doesn't take enough of a side in a dispute, that seems like exactly the opposite of the kind of case that might make us override the WP:COMMONNAME used by reliable sources. "Clash" is indeed extremely benign/neutral/milquetoast, I don't see what problem using the same word that reliable sources do introduces here. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 11:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Could it possibly be changed to 2021 Jerusalem Crisis or 2021 Israel-Palestine Crisis? I feel like the events have moved far beyond the clashes in Jerusalem, seeing as people have now been killed in airstrikes and rocket attacks. But I'm not sure what name would be better to more broadly reflect the events of the past several days. I do feel that "clashes" is just insufficient as this develops. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 13:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Yeah possibly, e.g. from the NYT: [2] 20 people were killed in the airstrikes. The escalation followed clashes between the Israeli police and Palestinian protesters. I'm not sure if "crisis" is really used much by reliable sources, but there is possibly a word we can use that's a bit less anodyne than "clashes", which I agree probably does feel a bit insufficient for the way this has developed. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

True true; I feel that “crisis” is the best descriptor. Even though it’s not the most commonly used by RS, I don’t know anyone on any side who wouldn’t refer to this as a crisis. The events are no longer just the clashes, and no longer just in Jerusalem. I don’t love keeping the current name and think it should be moved ASAP. If anyone has any better name suggestions feel free to add them.Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 16:42, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I see you made the move. Seems reasonable for the time being, though I would like to see going forward what reliable sources call this. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 19:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

 Comment: I think crisis is a bit vague, I'd go for clashes. - Daveout(talk) 20:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

IfNotNow

Remove ridiculous reference to IfNotNow, their credibility was only just diminished further by leaving up a tweet praising the desire of Palestinians to "bomb Tel Aviv" for over 24 hours. They are hardly a reliable source. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 14:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

IfNotNow is not used as a citation anywhere in the article. Your opinion on their credibility is OR and not relevant here, this is not a forum for airing grievances about advocacy organizations. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 14:43, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced claim in first paragraph of article

"In response, on 10 and 11 May, Hamas and Islamic Jihad fired over 400 rockets at Israel,[11]"

[11] is this article: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/israel-palestine-rockets-fighting-hamas-evictions

But the citation source contradicts the text in this article. It says "No injuries or damage from the rockets have been reported." It also nowhere cites any number of rockets being fired, let alone 400. This is not an appropriate source for this claim.

I found another source that supports the 400 rockets being fired claim. Please see https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-gaza-airstrikes-rockets-middle-east-news-2021-05-11/. Jurisdicta (talk) 19:21, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Causes in Infobox

At the time of writing the causes section in the Infobox reads "Planned decision by the Supreme Court of Israel to evict Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem".

The main article under Background suggests "Palestinian protesters were also frustrated with President of the State of Palestine Mahmoud Abbas's decision to postpone the 2021 Palestinian legislative election, believing he had done so to avoid political defeat for his party Fatah."

Should the postponement of elections be added as a secondary cause or would this be Wikipedia:UNDUEWEIGHT? RoanokeVirginia (talk) 16:16, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Add refs

Hello, please add this event of "cases of Israeli civilians being attacked my mobsters", in TOI, H and JP: https://www.timesofisrael.com/some-280-palestinians-9-cops-hurt-in-latest-heavy-clashes-in-jerusalem/ https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/palestinian-youth-injured-in-car-crash-in-old-city-riot-667743 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/video-shows-palestinian-mob-assaulting-jewish-driver-israeli-cop-intervening-1.9789998 Also in NYT, which added this event "The Hadassah Medical Center reported that a 7-month-old girl was treated after being slightly injured in the head by a rock." https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/10/world/middleeast/jerusalem-protests-aqsa-palestinians.html

The event of "fireworks shot at Jewish home in East Jerusalem" : https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/video-shows-fireworks-shot-at-jewish-home-in-east-jerusalem/

--Etudes jb (talk) 17:02, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Injuries

Just so everyone is aware, the pro-Israeli media always inflates injury numbers, for example, many Israelis currently being called injured are injured with anxiety, whereas Palestinians suffering from anxiety are not listed as being injured. Should we remove those with non-physical wounds, and trivial wounds like sprained ankles from the Israeli injury tally as there are no sources tallying the same for Palestinians? Of 19 (talk) 17:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect Of 19. Anxiety and trivial wounds are not included in Israeli counts. Secondly if you have a news source saying that they are feel free to mention in the article with the appropriate reference. Only verifiable references should be used to keep Wikipedia accurate. Nerguy (talk) 17:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

If you read the sources such as the jpost article you would quickly know that they are including anxiety and trivial wounds in their count. Why would you state otherwise? Please read the sources before oddly claiming I am wrong and embarrassing yourself. Of 19 (talk) 17:35, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

As I previously stated Of 19, since you believe there is a disparity, feel free to mention in the article with the appropriate references. However we cannot change the numbers that the media have presented. Also, I don't feel embarrassed for disputing something that has not been backed up by verifiable sources. Nerguy (talk) 18:06, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

From JPost: Of those injured on Tuesday, five were children, 26 were in light condition, 13 were suffering from anxiety, one person was moderately injured and two other people were seriously injured. Kinda think that should be spelled out. nableezy - 18:15, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I see Nableezy that you have added anxiety. But the Wikipedia article counts the injured at 70, while the JP article you referenced counts them at 90. I will make the appropriate correction. Nerguy (talk) 18:33, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry but I am removing the 13 suffering from anxiety. It absolutely does not qualify as an injury or casualty, and you will not find one other Wiki article that documents how many people were anxious during a war. I can guarantee you nearly 100% of the millions of people in the region are anxious. I am incredibly anxious over this, does that mean we should add a section of 1 person in the US with anxiety? No. 90-13=77, so I am changing it to 77 injured. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 19:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

This is not a great solution either. I obviously agree that reporting "anxiety" as an injury in a civil conflict seems stupid, but taking it out and using 90-13=77 seems worse, and is probably original research. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 20:07, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

What about a footnote? AllegedlyHuman (talk) 20:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Considering that there are probably thousands upon thousands of Palestinians who have gotten anxiety from this situation who aren't going to be reported in RS (because doing so is blatantly a tactic to inflate injury numbers in an obviously one sided conflict), I don't really think it's worth mentioning it all. Paragon Deku (talk) 21:33, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I think I would honestly prefer to just remove both of the civilian injury counts from the infobox for now. There's a dispute going on over the Palestinian count too, and at this point in time the numbers seem bound to be an inaccurate mess. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 22:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that it shouldnt be included, but if the numbers we are including do include anxiety that should be made clear in the infobox. nableezy - 18:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Remove all of the injury counts. Only list counts for the actual wounded. Dom Zero (talk) 05:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

This was discussed during the previous Israel-Gaza war as well when Israel included those suffering from anxiety among their "injured". And the result of that discussion was that they should not be included in the infobox which is reserved for physical injuries only. If the same cited source says that 90 were "injured" out of which 13 were suffering from anxiety it would not be original research to write 77 wounded in the infobox since it would be in line with WP:CALC policy. Cheers! EkoGraf (talk) 18:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

26 civilians killed?

User:Gianluigi02 you have reverted me without providing any source for your edit of 26 Palestinians civilians and 4 militants being killed. Yet you contradict IDF's claim of the death toll even though they're a party to the conflict and even the Palestinians aren't disputing them. It was clearly said in earlier reports that 26 Palestinians in total have been killed, including nine children and one woman, plus IDF said 16 militants [3]. Later it was said 28 had been killed including 10 children and one woman [4].

I wonder where you are getting your claim of only 4 militants being killed. I believe you're basing your claim on 4 Palestinian militant commanders being killed, but those aren't the only militants necessarily killed. Do not make edits using your own belief or conjecture. Revert your edit please. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Here's a report about one more Palestinian militant being killed, belonging to Palestinian intelligence services per a Palestinian security source. Your claim of 4 militants being killed is clearly wrong and has no basis. [5] LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:09, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

According to NBC 30 Palestinians including ten children have been killed. [6] Neither it nor any source mentions 26 civilians. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:13, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

26 (9 children)was an earlier figure from the Palestinian Health Ministry, it's at least 30 now (10) + 3 Israelis. (Reuters and NBC)Selfstudier (talk) 22:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes I've clarified that they were earlier or later figures. But no one said 26 civilians or 30 civilians were killed. Not even the Palestinian Health Ministry. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:30, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The Independent originally said 26 civilians in Gaza but changed it later to Palestinians.Selfstudier (talk) 22:39, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

If it changed it as you say then that represents it realised it had wrong information. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 22:42, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

It's always the same, current AP reporting is 28 (including 10 children + a woman) with Israel claiming that 15 of them were militants. Might as well just wait for things to settle down a bit (or not).Selfstudier (talk) 22:46, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Only 4 militants are confirmed dead so far. The other identities confirmed are those of 10 civilian children and a woman. The identity of 15 other victims is not known so far, many are suspected to be civilians, so we should add them among the civilian casualties at least so far. Gianluigi02 (talk) 22:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

4 militant commanders are confirmed dead so far by Palestinians. Add another militant killed [7] by Palestinians. You're only using is Palestinians confirming who has been killed. But disregard Israel's claims, even though it can monitor who was killed. That's not the correct way to go and bias for one side is not allowed on Wikipedia. Just because identities of others are not confirmed by Palestinians, does not mean you call them civilians. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 23:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

See below section, sources from either side at least need attribution and ideally a third party source instead.Selfstudier (talk) 23:03, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Gianluigi is using Palestinian claims. Since the other parties are just repeating what they say, it's the wrong way. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 23:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Add contradictory claims, we will sort it out later.Selfstudier (talk) 23:08, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Where is the contradiction however? Palestinians never contradicted Israel's toll. The only one making a contradiction is Gianluigi. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 23:18, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Tolls from either side are unreliable. Truth first casualty of war, etcetera.Selfstudier (talk) 23:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Then why use Palestinian claims? The claims of how many died are actually all linked to Palestinian statements. Not like any of the journalist went there to count or saw a hospital list of the dead. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 23:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't really have anything more to add beyond what I have already said.Selfstudier (talk) 23:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I suggest you remember Palestinians never said at least five militants were killed. Gianluigi is thus using his own conjecture. There is nothing to contradict. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 00:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Situation in Lod

Why is this article referring to them as "Arab mobs" and implying that they're going on a pogrom against Israeli Jews? What's the rationale for that kind of wording and POV? 2607:FEA8:A4C3:BF00:4151:63EE:92D9:4A84 (talk) 22:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know, I didn't made that edit. Gianluigi02 (talk) 22:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I belived that this question was on my own talk page.😅 Gianluigi02 (talk) 22:43, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The cited article uses that term: "Arab Israeli killed amid violent riots by Arab mob in Lod; Jewish suspect held". AllegedlyHuman (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

If we're gonna be putting that in wikivoice we better have a damn good reason. Paragon Deku (talk) 01:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

ToI? Think I'll start including WAFA.Selfstudier (talk) 22:49, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

If your concern is about the source's reliability, that is an issue much larger than any individual article and you should take those concerns to WP:RSN. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 22:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Sources from either side need attribution at a minimum, a better source for preference.Selfstudier (talk) 22:57, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

It's not an issue of "side". The Times of Israel is an independent newspaper, not part of the Israeli government. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 23:22, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. We should prefer third party sourcing (wp:independent).Selfstudier (talk) 23:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Reuters "In the ethnically mixed Israeli town of Lod, near Tel Aviv, witnesses quoted by Israeli media said one or two armed Jews shot at rioting Arabs, killing one and wounding two. The dead man's father told the Walla news site he had been ambushed while on a family visit." See the difference?Selfstudier (talk) 23:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The Times of Israel literally is a third party source! The only COI they have here is happening to be in the same country. I will repeat what I said, which is that I implore you to take this to WP:RSN if you think there's an issue; this is not the correct venue for determining that otherwise, as this issue would surely affect many more articles. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 23:34, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Granny suck eggs, heard of that one?Selfstudier (talk) 23:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Fine, just don't say it's my fault that the issue you're arguing about won't get resolved when you've been made amply aware of how to actually go about fixing it. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 23:40, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Haha TOI is a mouthpiece for the Likud party. It's not neutral, hence the "Arab mobs" claptrap. 2607:FEA8:A4C3:BF00:4151:63EE:92D9:4A84 (talk) 23:43, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't recall blaming you for anything? And I know how to fix it, just delete it and replace it with a better source (when I am in the mood, it's not that important).Selfstudier (talk) 23:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I doubt that it's a "mouthpiece for the Likud Party". It's just an independent news source from Israel. The only legit l claims I could find about it being biased (From Media Bias/Fact Check) were actually that it's left-center leaning (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/times-of-israel/). --WindowGuy87 (talk) 23:50, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Here's a good way to check. Does the TOI repeat the same things as the Likud party? Does it accept what the Likud party and Netanyahu say without question or criticism? They can't even refer to the Palestinians as "protesters" as opposed to "terrorists" in regards to unarmed people demonstrating. 2607:FEA8:A4C3:BF00:4151:63EE:92D9:4A84 (talk) 00:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

For controversial matters, we should prefer sources that are uninvolved when editing in IP area. If the material is accurate, it is usually very simple to find such sources.Selfstudier (talk) 23:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Clashes section should be organized by location

AllegedlyHuman thanks for reverting my mistake. I think the "Clashes" section should be organized by location. Right now it is hard to follow. I think the main flashpoints have been: Sheikh Jarrah, Lod and Al-Aqsa mosque and we can have a further subsection for "Other".VR _talk 23:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Lead chronology

The lead currently says

In response, on 10 and 11 May, Hamas and Islamic Jihad fired over 400 rockets into Israel, hitting homes and a school, killing two Israeli civilians and injuring at least 70 Israeli civilians. Israel responded with airstrikes into Gaza, and according to Gaza officials at least 30 Palestinians were killed, including ten children, and 203 more were wounded. According to the Israel Defense Forces, at least fifteen of those killed were members of Hamas, and many others were killed by Palestinian rockets.

This implies that all the Israeli casualties happened before all the Palestinian casualties. But my impression from the news is that there have been several rounds of both Palestinian and Israeli attacks and the casualties are spread throughout said rounds. So can we phrase this differently?VR _talk 00:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Useful article

This article > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/11/dead-in-gaza-after-jerusalem-violence-spreads may be useful. Beeveria (talk) 01:01, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree, and I've added it to a new further reading section. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 01:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we need a further reading section with a random article in it. Why highlight this specific article? You can just use it to source prose in the article body. AlexEng^(TALK) 05:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Tables?

Not sure what making these tables adds, and I thought the previous breakdown of Mideast reactions was helpful as well. Tables also make it so the photos do not go with their respective nations. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 01:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Also, can we not start every sentence with the date? AllegedlyHuman (talk) 04:23, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Israeli casualties

There's so many reports say that the Israeli civilian casualties increased, but I see no updates in the infobox. Mohammed 2976 (talk) 01:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It can take up to several hours for information to be updated in the article; the situation is rapidly escalating and initial news reports can be unreliable. If you have any reliable sources with updated figures, feel free to provide them on the talk page and the article will be updated. Blade Jogger 2049 ^Talk 01:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Due to this being a current event it's going to be moving a bit slowly to update. Wikipedia doesn't break news, it follows. If you have any RS's that could help us update the tally that would be much appreciated. Paragon Deku (talk) 01:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Area vs neighborhood

As I was thinking about cleaning up the article a little bit I ran into a bit of a pickle. One time we call Sheikh Jarrah an "area" and another time we call it a "neighborhood". I don't have any preference for either, but can someone a little more clued in give some advice on which way the article should go.AlmostFrancis (talk) 04:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The article Sheikh Jarrah uses "neighborhood", so let's go with that. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 04:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. We should use the terminology in the subject's article. AlexEng^(TALK) 05:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

400 rockets?

The only source we had for the claim in the lead that 400 rockets were fired is from the Washington Examiner, which per WP:RSP isn't great: "there is consensus that it should not be used to substantiate exceptional claims." I am having difficulty finding other sources to back this up (keeping in mind WP:CITOGENESIS). AllegedlyHuman (talk) 05:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

NBC News says 480 rockets. Feel free to add it if you like. AlexEng^(TALK) 05:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

160 "operations" against Gaza during the same time, at that. Huh.2607:FEA8:A4C3:BF00:4151:63EE:92D9:4A84 (talk) 05:30, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I've gone ahead and added it myself and removed the dubious template. AlexEng^(TALK) 05:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Latest news reports state well over 1,000 have been fired to-date.50.111.52.57 (talk) 00:45, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Flip flopping on casualties section

Currently the israeli side of the casualties section has swapped from the anxiety claim, to injuries minus the anxieties, to back to 90+ injuries (which includes incredibly light injuries and the anxiety claim that are absolutely not "casualties") the article itself gives the breakdown that "Of those injured on Tuesday, five were children, 26 were in light condition, 13 were suffering from anxiety, one person was moderately injured and two other people were seriously injured." The claim of 90+ casualties at this point is laughably dubious. Paragon Deku (talk) 05:58, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

On the same note, why are the palestinian non-combatant casualties simply referred to as "palestinian" and not "palestinian civilians" as israeli citizens are in their own section? Paragon Deku (talk) 05:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Injured are injured. Original research over what you consider an injury is not necessary. Besides that, you don't know if the specific determinations (anxiety, light condition, children, etc.) in the article are mutually exclusive. Our job is to provide sourced claims, not speculate ourselves. With respect to specifying casualties as "civilian" or otherwise, I would assume that that distinction is being made on the Israeli side because we have the breakdown of how many casualties are civilians there. If you have a similar breakdown for the Palestinian casualties, please feel free to include it. Don't just guess. AlexEng^(TALK) 06:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's Original research to call into question why anxieties are included in the Israeli injury count and not at all in the palestinian count. I'm sure if we were including "anxiety" we would have about half of the child population of Palestine who reportedly have no will to live. As for not speculating about "sourced claims," I'd like to wonder what the entire point of discussion on the reliability of sources stands for if not to speculate or question the accuracy of statements and what we choose to put in wikivoice. Furthermore, why are you simply assuming why the distinction is being made rather than seeing the sources for yourself, which clearly outline that the injuries are to palestinian civilians? Paragon Deku (talk) 06:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

This discussion was held earlier, see section "Injuries". AllegedlyHuman (talk) 06:58, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Considering the rapid pace at which this talk page and the main article are moving, I wanted to address the specific usage of the term "civilians" and the re-inclusion of the anxiety "injuries" despite lack of consensus. Paragon Deku (talk) 07:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, it is. Assuming that the source is adding people suffering only anxiety into their number of injuries is OR. Doing math to determine the "real" number of casualties is OR. If you have a source with different figures, you're welcome to provide it. You're also welcome to discuss whether a particular source is reliable or not. You're not welcome to change the figures given by a source to fit your opinion on what they should be.

I'm not assuming anything about the distinction being made. The AP source says 35 Palestinians were killed by the air strikes in Gaza. Does it say how many were civilians? No. The Times of Israel piece says the Palestinian health authorities say 32 Palestinians were killed; it also says the IDF claims "at least 18 militants" were killed. You can't synthesize the figures in these sources to determine how many civilians were killed. If you find a source that says how many civilians were killed/wounded and it is reliable, then we can change the data in the casualties section. AlexEng^(TALK) 07:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Just pointing out [math isn't OR]. I would argue that it is misleading and undue to report "anxiety" as "casualties", and that doing basic math to remove those suffering "anxiety" isn't OR. BSMRD (talk) 07:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

By all means, let's include Palestinian anxiety victums and civilian vs militants numbers. Just find a reliable sources providing these numbers. “WarKosign” 07:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

You won't find an RS providing those numbers because cooking up casualties by including "anxiety" is a dishonest tactic used to make the situation seem less one-sided than it is. For the sake of talk page discussions you can put in an iota of self-critique of sources without needing to dredge up RS's for everything. And for the record, I provided an RS that takes UN testimony on the fact that half of Palestinian children in 2008 demonstrated almost no will to live. If we REALLY wanted to go there, we could probably find UN reports on the psychological health of Palestinians and bloat up those numbers nice and easy. Paragon Deku (talk) 07:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Is reprting 16 or 17 year-old militant casualties as "children" a honest tactic? What you are saying about may be valid claims, but this is original research and has no place on the Wikipedia. Once there are sources that provide numbers of Palestinian axiety victums in this conflict - we can use them. 2008 and other historical UN numbers are irrelevant. “WarKosign” 07:40, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

My point is that including any "anxiety" tally as a casualty is, to be blunt, completely fucking ridiculous. I'm in the boat of removing the casualty section until we have solid reporting on the topic, because as is there's clearly some inflation by "anxiety" that is not including in any other casualty tally on any other wikipedia article. Paragon Deku (talk) 07:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know how else to tell you that you can't just make up numbers. Repeating the same assertion isn't going to make it more valid. Start an RfC if you want, but you're not going to get consensus to subtract 13 from 90 because the source says they "were suffering from anxiety," because you can't prove that the conditions are mutually exclusive, i.e. that "suffering from anxiety" was their only injury. Again, I urge you to actually read the Wikipedia policy on original research. AlexEng^(TALK) 07:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Considering the issue has been raised multiple times now, an RfC on the casualties section may actually be warranted, just to get consensus on what to do with it generally. BSMRD (talk) 07:56, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

BSMRD, while I have you, synthesizing numbers from different parts of the source, used in different contexts, is explicitly against WP:SYNTH and not a "routine calculation": Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. AlexEng^(TALK) 08:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I am not suggesting we just "make up numbers," I'm suggesting the casualty section be removed entirely or reworked to account for this given that the impression it leaves is inaccurate. Paragon Deku (talk) 08:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The better solution would be to source the claim that injuries are not over 90. Then we can update the figures in the casualty box. AlexEng^(TALK) 08:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I heartily disagree, as I am sure several other users do as well. It's going to be hard to find a reliable source for an ongoing conflict that reports death and injury statistics accurately, and considering that the Jerusalem Post is not the most reliable source to begin with, citing them alone for civilian injuries is a pretty hefty WP:EXTRAORDINARY issue. Paragon Deku (talk) 08:15, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Please do not bring your disagreements into here, base your arguments on facts and policies only. Also do note that one wrong report does not make a website unreliable. That said Jerusalem Post did not claim the cure for cancer claims were definitely a fact [8]. Start a discussion on Reliable sources noticebosard and you'll need to include many examples of consistent deliberate false reporting, not just it being wrong once in a while. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 08:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

JP, ToI etc cannot be relied on in this context, claims should be independently sourced. JP was even paid by IsGov to slander BDS and they did.Selfstudier (talk) 08:39, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean by "do not bring your disagreements into here?" What is a talk page for? My argument is based on the fact that anxiety is not a casualty. Paragon Deku (talk) 08:47, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It means do not bring your personal thoughts and opinions here about a subject. We and in fact many news sites do include shocks and traumas or anxieties often in attacks. So not a big deal. This isn't the first time. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 08:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Is there another wikipedia article that counts "anxiety" as a casualty? Paragon Deku (talk) 09:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

As for IsGov paying JPost for BDS please provide a link and take it to RS noticeboard because that's ground for banning a source. But ToI is an independent newspaper so there is nothing wrong with it, even if it's Israeli, as long as it's not overused. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:01, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The claim you used them for earlier (ToI blog) already turned out to be wrong. JP situation is well known, look it up. If you use these sources, needs attribution at a minimum and ideally an independent source (stuck record). This is normal for the IP area, I am not just saying it for fun.Selfstudier (talk) 09:13, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

For the record, neither ToI nor JD are listed on WP:RSP one way or the other. "Look it up," isn't a valid argument, by the way. Source your statements, please. What claim turned out to be wrong? AlexEng^(TALK) 09:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

They are not RS for IP area because not independent of conflict. The false claim (ToI blog for militants killed) has already been removed from the article so no longer an issue. As I said, JP issue is well known to editors in this area, look it up.Selfstudier (talk) 09:20, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Can you tell me which claim from ToI turned out to be wrong. I have also looked up your claim about BDS and JPost, since I couldn't find any I have questioned you. We cannot always have uninvolved information. That's why uninvolved is only preferred and not the only type of source allowed. The Gaza death toll for example is from the Gaza health officials. Not independent claim, and it's not even represented as being (per Gaza health officials/Hamas/Palestinians) to represent it's one-sided claim. But it's wrong if someone uses an Israeli source? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I just told you above, it has been removed, it is right there in the editing history. https://www.972mag.com/israeli-propaganda-bds-jerusalem-post/ "Jerusalem Post took government money to publish anti-BDS special". I said that if you use them , it needs attribution at a minimum (so that readers can apply judgement as to validity) and ideally an independent source, I did not say you could not use them.Selfstudier (talk) 09:29, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, you look it up. By that measure, we can't include Al Jazeera sources either, since they wouldn't be "independent of the conflict." (See WP:RSP.) Of course, that's nonsense. The militant claim did not "turn out to be wrong." Again, please provide a source that says so. The ToI source quoted the Israeli Government, so unless you think they are unfaithfully reporting what the government told them, I don't really see your case for saying it "turned out to be wrong." AlexEng^(TALK) 09:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I am quite happy with the way I do things even if you are not. The ToI source did not attribute their claim to IsGov, they stated it in their voice as as fact (ToI blog). AJ is independent RS (ie not Israeli and not Palestinian). There is little need to rely on these sources when clearly independent sources are plentiful.Selfstudier (talk) 09:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

SelfStudier I assume you're referring to Gianluigi deciding to remove number of militants killed per Israel That's actually a disruptive edit by him as he (and you) are selectively establishing yourself who is true or false without proof. Even when the Palestinians never contradicted them. The tactic you used is that Hamas and PIJ haven't confirmed the total number of militants killed, only their prominent members who are worth a notice ie commanders. That does not mean total number of militants killed.

Note also the website you use [9] provides no documentary proof of JPost being paid. What is also to be noted is that +972 Magazine is uniformly anti-occupation of Palestine [10]. It's quite clear you're against Israeli sources here. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Also AJ is not independent, it's funded by Qatar which is partial to Hamas and the outlet is often pro-Palestinian. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

WP:RSP disagrees. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 09:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't, actually. Some editors say that Al Jazeera, particularly its Arabic-language media, is a partisan source with respect to the Arab–Israeli conflict. AlexEng^(TALK) 09:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

It does though, "some editors" (even though it is one person), implying minority, do not get to decide whether Al Jazeera is a partisan source. I have gone through all the previous discussions listed on the perennial sources page. That summary is misleading and implies consensus of multiple people when in reality it's one person, who might have a WP:COI as evidenced by their edits, see [11]. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I should also point out that the whole premise of that anti-JP article in +972 Magazine is bunk, considering the fact that the back cover of that special supplement clearly says State of Israel Ministry of Strategic Affairs and Public Diplomacy right at the top, with the logo and everything. AlexEng^(TALK) 09:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

You can be as happy as you like, but that doesn't mean that you have consensus to remove sources. You are wrong regarding the ToI source: Israel says it has killed at least 18 terrorists. The name of the conflict is the Arab-Israeli Conflict per the DS notice right at the top of this page. Al Jazeera is an Arabic news source. Moreover, if you'd read WP:RSP which I have now linked multiple times, it says Some editors say that Al Jazeera, particularly its Arabic-language media, is a partisan source with respect to the Arab–Israeli conflict. which is more of a consensus than the non-mention of JP or ToI. I've yet to see a "clearly independent source" mention the number of wounded Israelis. If you're hiding one, cough it up, please. AlexEng^(TALK) 09:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Selfstudier just so you know, ToI did say it was Israel's claim that 18 militants had been killed [12]. "Israel says it has killed at least 18 terrorists". Your whole claim of ToI being false is itself false. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:48, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I didn't put the material in and I didn't remove it either. If I edit the article I will source my edits using independent third party sources.Selfstudier (talk) 09:50, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

No I didn't say that. But you were wrongly claiming what ToI said was false and it didn't attribute the number of dead militants to Israel. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 09:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, the editor who removed it says in his edit summary that the claim was false and I agree with him based on the evidence. And using the ToI blog (saying "Israel" is not attribution) as a source is really not a good idea but now I am merely repeating myself.Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

One editor calling a source false is not evidence. Saying Israel is attribution, just like "India said x number of people died". It refers to an official channel. What else do you need? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 10:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I assume they got their info from that well known source of disinformation, the IDF, but they didn't say so, nor did they attribute it to anyone else. All I need is a reputable third party independent source.Selfstudier (talk) 10:11, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Your clear bias is showing here, because IDF's no less disreputable than Palestinian sources themselves. Everyone doesn't need to clarify the obvious for you. When they say Israel they don't mean Palestine or United States. What you "need" is really irrelevant here. LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 10:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

You know what you can do with your allegations of bias. I already said clearly that info from either side cannot be relied on.Selfstudier (talk) 10:20, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

And yet you go on to use a ridiculous claim like ToI never attributing, when it did. If that's not bias then what is? LéKashmiriSocialiste (talk) 10:22, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Let's chat later, I have things to do.Selfstudier (talk) 10:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

adding content

add "Hamas claim victory "

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-hails-victory-in-battle-for-jerusalem-after-onslaught-on-central-israel/

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/202105121082863798-hamas-leader-claims-victory-in-the-battle-for-jerusalem-amid-israeli-palestinian-escalation/

--Sandtransman (talk) 10:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Merge proposal Operation Guardian of the Walls to here

I'd propose merging Operation Guardian of the Walls to here, since the bulk of article is casualties list which is duplicated in both articles Shushugah (talk) 12:34, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I don't understand the rush to split that out, maybe later on when things settle down a bit, it's just duplicating what's here mainly.Selfstudier (talk) 12:51, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Support: I say that we should merge these articles to make a "C-Rated" Article. At-least it is better then 2 "Start-Rated" articles. DXLBandLokiBlaster 13:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Update

It appears someone has already redirected the page to 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. RoanokeVirginia (talk) 15:25, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

bruh DXLBandLokiBlaster 15:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021 (2)

In the reactions section, will someone please add this to the UN reaction as the Middle East envoy said this and it is not there: Stop the fire immediately. We’re escalating towards a full scale war.

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/gaza-un-warns-of-full-scale-war-between-israel-and-palestinians.html • • rslashthinkong (User page) (User talk page) 13:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I did see that earlier but there is a UNSC meeting later on today so why not wait and see what comes out from there? A short delay won't hurt.Selfstudier (talk) 13:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Run n Fly (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

"A large crowd of Israeli Jews..."

At § Reactions #Israeli and Palestinian, a sentence states A large crowd of Israeli Jews gathered around a fire near the mosque on 10 May, chanting yimakh shemam. IfNotNow co-founder Simone Zimmerman criticized them as exhibiting "genocidal animus towards Palestinians — emboldened and unfiltered".

References

This is WP:UNDUE. The event is disputed (as described at § Social media), Mrs. Zimmerman is a non-notable individual and the sources cited are both heavily biased. Compare this with the rest of the paragraph, which quotes Israeli and Palestinian officials. --JBchrch (talk) 13:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I do not believe it is WP:UNDUE. First of all, I am sorry but I can not see how two US non-profit news agencies are characterized as biased at the same time where Times of Israel is not. Second of all, I believe we should include Simone Zimmerman, because of her co-ownership of IfNotNow and also for her role as the director of B'Tselem. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 14:10, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

The Intercept is biased according to WP:RSP. Common Dreams explicitly publishes "for the progressive community". Zimmerman is director of B'Tselem USA [13], not the Israeli organisation. If this is really WP:DUE, we can certainly find sources that are more neutral and have higher standards. Please note, for your information, that I would have the exact same position if a certain fact were sourced exclusively to The Jerusalem Post and the Times of Israel. JBchrch (talk) 14:18, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

We can attribute the statement to The Intercept then, if needed. As for Common Dreams' publication for the progressive community, I am not sure if I would call it "explicit", it's not like they self-identify their news as explicitly directed toward the progressive community. The comment about Zimmerman is true, but I still do think her opinion should be included, though maybe attributed a bit differently. About my ToI comment, I am sorry if you felt that the Times of Israel part was a direct attack on you. It was based off my observation of some people on this talk page, who seem to think it is not a biased source by itself. CPCEnjoyer (talk) 14:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

That section jumps around date wise, I am not clear precisely where this material fits in the timeline of events, in general I would prefer a less pithy description of what occurred, the quote can be included inside the ref.Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

No worries for the Times of Israel comment. Yes, the page title for their home page says "Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community". Regarding comments on the event, the § Social Media paragraph has two "critical reactions", one from the Intercept and one from Ayman Odeh, both of which are notable. I still think this is sufficient and that there is no need to add Zimmerman, but I'll let the consensus approve of disapprove. JBchrch (talk) 16:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

A separate question is whether it is duplication of the material in the social media section? If it is decided that the Zimmerman comments should remain, should they move to be with the discussion of the video? RoanokeVirginia (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea. Perhaps moving it to the social media section and placing it alongside David Patrikarakos' claim of it being "fake news" would be good for WP:DUE? CPCEnjoyer (talk) 15:23, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I'd be OK with that as well, it's definitely in an odd position right now.Selfstudier (talk) 15:27, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I moved it per above.Selfstudier (talk) 15:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021 (3)

A Palestinian rights group says eight of the Palestinian casualties from the past 48 hours, including two children-aged 16 and 5- were killed by a Palestinian rocket that fell short, not Israeli airstrikes. Jonrave (talk) 13:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi, could you please provide a reliable source? JBchrch (talk) 14:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Run n Fly (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Here is the source for this claim that at least 8 Palestinians, including two children, were killed be a rocket that fell short in this particulare incident. JoshRichards98 (talk)

Should Lod have a subsection?

In the article the riots in Lod seem to be particularly serious. The mayor says the city has "completely lost control" and describes it as "near civil war", it is the first time since 1966 that Israel has used emergency powers over an Arab community, and the President of Israel described the riots as a pogrom. The BBC 2 and the Guardian in the UK have coverage of Lod independent of their coverage of the clashes in general. Therefore, would it be appropriate to have a subsection within clashes for Lod? or would this be too finer subdivision of an already smallish section? RoanokeVirginia (talk) 16:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I think perhaps not yet, there is a curfew, right? The main point here I think is not Lod per se but that the problems have spread to mixed ethnicity areas within Israel.https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/violence-grips-mixed-arab-jewish-towns-israel-tensions-flare-2021-05-12/ and https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israel-arabs-palestinians-protests-unrest/2021/05/12/af8df29a-b308-11eb-bc96-fdf55de43bef_story.html?Selfstudier (talk) 17:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Lod and Al-Aqsa mosque should both have subsections as I proposed at Talk:2021 Israel–Palestine crisis/Archives/ 1#Clashes section should be organized by location.VR _talk 17:10, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I can't help feeling that subsections would break up the timeline. It's convenient at this point to see how everything escalated and in what order.Selfstudier (talk) 17:16, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I see you went ahead and did it anyway so I included Gaza as a subsection for consistency, all under the heading escalation.Selfstudier (talk) 17:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Selfstudier can we separate the protests and clashes from the IDF-Hamas war that has now erupted? On the other hand if people disagree with my organization I'll go ahead and self-revert.VR _talk 17:50, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I just continued your idea ie each to its own geographical section, I think West Bank needs to be in there too, probably. People should be able to track the escalation. And the casualties should be separated out to it's own place.Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Reaction of Pope Francis

Add the reaction of Pope Francis on this situation, "I pray that the city might be a place of encounter and not of violent clashes, a place of prayer and peace, I invite everyone to seek shared solutions, so that the multi-religious and multi-cultural identity of the Holy City might be respected and that fraternity might prevail. Violence generates only violence, enough with the clashes" Chxeese (talk) 17:25, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Though this wasn't formally an edit request, it has been done (albeit with different sources). — Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021 (4)

2401:4900:5A50:4E80:5547:773D:BEA2:9661 (talk) 17:32, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I think the section above this one is the same user.Selfstudier (talk) 17:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Removal of Casualty section

Considering there have been numerous questions regarding the accuracy of the casualty statistics reported by the sources we have available (including whether or not anxiety counts as a casualty and how best to apply this in an article), I'm proposing the casualty section be removed until enough foresight is given by reliable sources to give accurate numbers. Constantly updating the tally with potentially inaccurate information does not seem like a good route to go. I may end up opening an RfC if a consensus can't be reached, but I think it's in the best interest of the page to remove it and would like to know whether other editors of this page support or oppose the concept. Paragon Deku (talk) 17:35, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I'll go with the flow, personally I am OK with just using the infobox provided that we use only the best sources for updates.Selfstudier (talk) 18:08, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, AP just released an article with what seem to be more accurate casualty statistics, although Israeli injuries are left at an unclear "dozens," but it looks to be there are accurate death tolls. Paragon Deku (talk) 18:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we should remove the section altogether. If it's adequately sourced, it's germane to the article and good to have. There's no deadline to have the exact statistics. It can be updated as new information becomes available. AlexEng^(TALK) 02:51, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Addition of Malaysian response to the crisis

The Prime Minister of Malaysia has released a press statement condemning Israel here. External source here. MetroMapFinalRender.svg (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done Added with quick summary and sourcing. "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - George S. Patton :: markus1423 (talk) 00:38, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021 (5)

you could change the number of Israeli civilians killed from 5 to 6 after the latest casualty according to this source. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israeli-paramedics-year-killed-rocket-strike-apartment-building-77648145 Whitesin21 (talk) 18:07, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done ― Qwerfjkl  (please use {{reply to|Qwerfjkl}} on reply) 19:50, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Arab-Israeli protester casualty

Shouldn't the Arab-Israeli protester casualty, currently on the Palestinian side on the casualty table, shouldn't they be on the Israeli side? Since even though they were an arab-israeli protesting, killed in skirmish with Israel Police Force, they were still Israeli, so would be an Israel casualty...

It's very clear what side of the conflict they were on. Paragon Deku (talk) 19:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Arab-Israelis are (appropriately) listed as a belligerent on the Palestinian side, as the relevant Arab-Israelis are currently engaged in protests and some riots against Israeli security forces. So even though they are Israeli citizens, they're opposing the Government of Israel in this circumstance. By analogy, even though American revolutionaries were British subjects, they were counter to British forces during the Revolution, alongside their allies of France and Spain. Again, that's an analogy and by no means the same situation, but the reference is the same. "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - George S. Patton :: markus1423 (talk) 20:01, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

As stated by AP [14] they are supporting the Palestinians in this conflict. EkoGraf (talk) 20:05, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021 (6)

A 5 year old child has died of his injuries after a rocket barrage from Hamas hit his home in Sderot. SteelMailbox (talk) 20:42, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 22:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 May 2021 (7)

Shronanigans (talk) 20:53, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

There are a few typos and formating inconsistencies. Several places list "in (date)" instead of "on (date)." Additionally, the date format is inconsistent throughout the article. Some have the day then month (9 May) while others have the month then day (May 9).

Thanks for your suggestion. Please note that the article is being worked on at a fast pace, in order to keep up with the news developments. Copy-editing will probably be dealt with at a later stage, when the article is more stable (unless an extended-confirmed editor performs a copyedit earlier). JBchrch (talk) 23:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done I don't see any dates that need correcting. Possibly, they were already fixed by other editors. If you have any specific corrections, please reactivate the request per the instructions. Please also include the exact text that needs to be corrected, and the replacement text to be substituted. AlexEng^(TALK) 02:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Two more problems with this article

1. The article has a paragraph starting "On the morning of 9 May, the final Friday of Ramadan"; however, 9 May was Sunday, not Friday.
2. The issues surrounding the controversial "Flag Dance" of Jerusalem Day, 10 May, and its influence on the crisis, is completely ignored.

Animal lover 666 (talk) 00:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that's messed up, Friday 7th.Selfstudier (talk) 00:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Merging

With another page about the 2021 Jerusalem clashes, I think this page should merge with that one as to not cause confusion and possible misinformation. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry wrong page, remove reply Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I've marked the other article as redirect. Feel free to copy from history. Thanks. ─ The Aafī on Mobile ^(talk) 22:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps. however it might be better to have it moved to "2021 Arab/Israeli War."

Deaths in lead

Currently, we're sourcing the number of deaths in the lead to the New York Times, but the piece seems to indicate that only 35 Palestinians had been killed by the night of 11 May. A previous version of the article may have supported the 65 (According to the AP, this is what Gaza's health ministry claims), but I don't think it's appropriate to use the source to provide for a number it doesn't actually give. The Wall Street Journal, as of 5:53 GMT today, seems to be reporting 56 Palestinian deaths (including 14 children) and seven Israeli deaths (including 1 child). The reporting from WSJ appears to be based on the numbers given by both Israel and Palestine. The WSJ source, however, doesn't give a good estimation on the number of casualties of Palestinians (though it says >200 Israelis have been injured in rocket attacks since the evening of 10 May). A more recent report from the Times of London seems to put the Palestinian death toll at 53 (including 14 children) and the Israeli death toll at 7 (including 1 child). This is an increase in the number of Israeli deaths reported by the Times of London earlier today. France 24 currently reports 56 Palestinian deaths (including 14 children) and an additional >300 casualties in Gaza in addition to 6 Israeli deaths (including one child). Argentina's Clarín reports that 65 Gazans have died (including 16 children) and that at least 7 Israelis have died (including one child), and Argentina's La Nación reports that 65 Gazans have dies (including 16 children).

The WSJ, NYT, Times of London, France 24, La Nación, and Clarín are all respectable sources, though there seems to be general disagreement on the number of casualties/deaths here (likely owing to the fact that this is ongoing). WSJ and Times of London seem to be in agreement on the deaths of the 14 Palestinian Children and the number of Israeli deaths, though they slightly differ on the total number of Palestinian deaths (both of which are much higher than NYT). Argentine media, as well as Arab media, reports the 65 number and the 16 children dying pretty consistently, though Arab media seems to be doing so with attribution to the Gazan health ministry. All of this is to say, I'm editing the lead to incorporate more recent reporting (I think noting a range of deaths is better than picking one number, especially when reputable sources disagree), and I'm editing the relevant sections to incorporate the reporting from the various sources, so as to try to avoid overreliance on a single source here. As time goes on, I expect all these estimates to change upwards, though I figure that doing this now will help the article to better reflect the current situation and will provide a framework to build upon as new reports come in. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 22:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I moved the casualties section to its own space as it is not just Gaza. Someone suggested we might do away with it altogether, idk if that's workable.Selfstudier (talk) 22:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

They all take their info from Hamas and they say it.We should attribute it too. --Shrike (talk) 05:21, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Did Israeli police enter the Al-Aqsa mosque

According to Israel national news on 10th May, they did not enter and only made arrests outside. Says in the wiki that they stormed the Mosque Compound, however I suppose 'compound' may be the outside part also. However maybe it should make mention of this claim that they did not enter the Mosque building itself.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/305906 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ester9001 (talk • contribs)

They threw stun grenades and tear gas into the actual mosque itself, but I don't think they actually entered it on foot, just the compound (though they broke the windows of the mosque from outside to throw things in). This could probably be explained, but it seems most sources just talk about them entering "the compound" and leave it at that. E.g. NYT, or the Al Jazeera source currently in use. The source you linked above was referencing a statement from the Israel police, which would probably have to be attributed if we were to include it. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 03:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Wounded vs Injured

The article uses both terms seemingly interchangeably, I think it would be good for the presentation of the article to establish consensus on one term for use, especially for the infobox, instead of switching between the two. Personally I prefer wounded, thoughts? BSMRD (talk) 04:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

If we're going to pick one – and it's not clear that we should – then it should be "injured," because it's a more accurate umbrella term for all of the situations described in the article. A wound is a specific type of injury, and not all of those injured were wounded. I hate to get technical here, but we should at least be correct if we're going to generalize.

Alternatively, we could use whichever term is appropriate for the situation that it describes. For example, 21 police officers injured during protest activity is more accurate than wounded. On the other hand, 300+ Palestinians wounded by Israeli airstrikes, misfired rockets, etc. is specific and also accurate for that situation. So, I would argue we should stick to the language in the sources and make decisions on a case by case basis. AlexEng^(TALK) 05:46, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 May 2021 (2)

The IDF fired missiles at Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip on 23 April after 36 rockets were fired at southern Israel.

after to in response to

Just clearing the vagueness 150.242.64.120 (talk) 06:28, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done I restructured the sentence completely. Maybe that addresses your concerns; maybe not. I did, however, make it closely reflect what is written in the source. AlexEng^(TALK) 06:55, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Netanyahu nav and cat

Have been added to the article and reverted back in after being reverted with a claim that the crisis is a major event of his premiership.

On this theory, we need same thing for Abbas, Haniyeh etc.

Someone please revert this. Selfstudier (talk) 16:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 January 2022

In the lede, the sentence goes:

By 17 May, the United Nations estimated that Israeli airstrikes destroyed 94 buildings in Gaza, comprising 461 housing and commercial units, including the al-Jalaa Highrise, housing offices of the Associated Press and Al Jazeera and 60 condominiums.[58]

but the part of ”...housing offices of the Associated Press and Al Jazeera and..” should read instead: ‘housing offices of the Associated Press, Al Jazeera alongwith other news outlets..’ per

this, this & this, and multiple confirmations from statements which confirm that it was the Al Jazeera network's Gaza bureau as a whole, and not simply the one of its flagship Standard Arabic-channel, as I understand it's the common practice to refer to that article whenever any broad-reference to the network is made across this site. This ought to stop. AFP's own workers even "mentioned" Al Jazeera English's "handle" on Twitter when announcing their decision of offering shelter to the affected journalists. Regards. —103.163.124.68 (talk) 10:38, 23 January 2022 (UTC) Amended 10:44, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I will do the edit shortly. I think there is confusion about Al Jazeera, Al Jazeera Arabic (which would be the consistent usage) redirects to Al Jazeera Apart from aljazeera.com and net for the English and Arabic web sites which we don't have separate articles for, typically editors are most likely to be citing those two on here. However, you are right, the assumption being made is that Al Jazeera is the whole thing when wikilinking something intext, maybe the way to deal with it is by way of disambiguation but it isn't straightforward.11:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC) Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, I edited the lead (and the body)using Al Jazeera Media Network in full without the easter egg (which is an example of the confusion you already referred to :) Selfstudier (talk) 11:45, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Alright.. If nobody gets up in arms about "additional space", it's absolutely fine by me. Thanks So Much. And yes, on that "AJ=AJMN≠AJA[?]" front which is very very very off-topic beyond the remit of this article: It does appear that creating a disambiguation is the best-course forward for this. However, with or without an RfC, I can assure you would get quite a lot of "well-versed" editors who would be upset with that and would keep reversing the disambiguation time-after-time in the periods to come. (Strongest-hint: The activity would spike randomly during the breaking-news cycles of any moderately contentious news story any service of AJMN would cover.) Goodbye! May you have a prosperous-life [ahead]. —103.163.124.68 (talk) 12:49, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nableezy: It's not to do directly with this article but since this convo is here, what do you think of trying to do disambiguation in this case? Selfstudier (talk) 13:11, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

prpose rename for article

I would like to rename this article to Israel–Palestine crisis 2021 to present. I did not use the word "conflict," in order to convey that this relates to a specific current crisis, not to a general ongoing colflict. Please feel free to comment. --Sm8900 (talk) 15:24, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Why? The scope is limited to May right now. It is doubtful that "crisis" applies to all the rest of 2021 as well as 2022 to date ("present" is open ended). There are timeline articles for less significant and less connected matters. Selfstudier (talk) 15:41, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Rename

I am unable to respond to an earlier proposal to rename this article. I would suggest that the article be renamed with a more appropriate title to its content. The article specifically covers the May 2021 Israeli Assault on Gaza and should be named as such. It is not sufficient to refer to this period as 'crisis'. It is not accurate to refer to the period as 2021, rather it should read as an event in 'May 2021'. 82.15.8.186 (talk) 15:01, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

There were various discussions re the title (check the archives) and the current title has consensus. The hatnote at the top of the article says "This article is about an escalation of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in May 2021." and it covers more than the Gaza matter. Selfstudier (talk) 15:40, 11 May 2022 (UTC)