Talk:HIV/AIDS denialism

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Frequently asked questions (FAQ)

Simon Mol[edit]

Did he deny the link between HIV and AIDS, or, did he just deny having AIDS? Dbrodbeck (talk) 17:26, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

After doing a little digging, I have yet to find a reliable source that suggests that he denied the link, only that he denied he was infected. While his actions in Poland certainly lead me to believe he was a Sociopath, I see no evidence of AIDS denialism, at least, none in the manner that matches our definition here. If someone has evidence to the contrary I would certainly like to see it. --Supaflyrobby (talk) 21:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

To be very precise and verbatim, he denied "being infected" (with HIV), as he was circumcised, while knowing that he had tested positive for AIDS years back. He thus repeatedly denied the possibility of him infecting dozens of girls he slept with with HIV. Logical, isn't it?

See the details and context below.

First, while I am dwelling on this here. Since this and related articles are oftentimes reverted or even deleted for the reasons of political correctness (see [dead link] proof), I need to provide more scientific background and seek wide consensus first.

My point is that apart from "AIDS is not HIV", many Black people claim(ed) that they are immune to HIV since they are circumcised. Simon Mol who knew he had AIDS (he was tested and told about it), was one of them, as evidenced by his own quote there, which belief may have contributed to his HIV transmission.

To prove existence and universality of this false belief, I want to add a subsection about it, with a quote about its occurence among Subsaharan Blacks in particular, referencing e.g. this article: Circumcision Denialism Unfounded and Unscientific and maybe related ones which reference it: Male circumcision for HIV prevention: current evidence and implementation in sub-Saharan Africa. or this one, sample quote: “Are heterosexual men, living with HIV in South Africa, clear that although they can get circumcised, their benefits in this regard are close to none – if any?"

My point is that he and other people learning that "circumcision massively reduces HIV risks" (Mol actually directly referenced a BBC article about it) engange in denialism, wishful thinking, that in claiming and believing they could never catch HIV (Mol used the word "(not) infected" to ally the fears of his partners).

Is it RS enough and does it warrant a subsection so that my edits are not reverted again? Please advise. Zezen (talk) 21:20, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

One could deny that one could catch HIV/AIDS while still affirming that HIV causes AIDS. Unless you have evidence that Mol specifically denied that HIV leads to AIDS, it is original research to include Mol. The sources you provide contain no indication of anyone claiming that circumcision means AIDS is somehow not caused by HIV, but that some people are under the mistaken assumption that circumcision is a cure for already contracted HIV-caused AIDS. Completely different matter.
To be clear: this article is about those who claim that AIDS is not caused by HIV. It is not about those who understand that AIDS is caused by HIV but mistakenly believe it can be cured through circumcision, or whose who understand that AIDS is caused by HIV but mistakenly believe that circumcision renders them completely immune. You need a source that specifically claims that Mol denied the link between HIV and AIDS, not sources where Mol claims to have no been infected. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


I understand your point about what this article is about NOW.

What I am trying us to agree on is that we create a subsection (better) or if really needed a separate article about mistaken claims, popular among Black Africans, that if you circumcise then you do not catch AIDS/HIV or that if you do so after getting infected it sto;; magically cures you. As I wrote, they are RS proven (see the sample sources above)

Please comment on my query if such sources are RS enough for a separate section.

Zezen (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I have just found that Simon Mol also believed his sperm to be sacred.[1]

References

  1. ^ "Sekretne życie Simona Mola". Polityka. 2007. Archived from the original on 2014. "My sperm is sacred" Polish: "Moja sperma jest święta.". 

Would that be a proof for his magical thinking (aka denialism) good enough? Zezen (talk) 22:52, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The source does not appear to say that Mol believed that HIV does not cause AIDS. This article is specifically about people who deny that HIV leads to AIDS. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:05, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Zezen, Much of what you are brining up is already covered in Common misconceptions about HIV and AIDS, which is where I think some material about Sol could be worked in. I also agree with Ian that the evidence you present does not appear to support inclusion here.--Supaflyrobby (talk) 23:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the tip. I search for "circumcision" there but they do not cover this type of AIDS denialism.

-> Shall we create it here then? As you see from these RS, it exists, and influences many people's decisions.

Zezen (talk) 00:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Claiming that circumcision prevents HIV infection is not a form of HIV/AIDS denialism. How many times do you have to be told that? HIV/AIDS denialism is only the claim that HIV does not lead to AIDS. HIV/AIDS denialism does not include any claims that HIV infection can be avoided by some means.
The mistaken belief that circumcision prevents HIV infection is a misconception about how HIV spreads, even if that misconception has yet to be added to that article. It is not the denial that AIDS is caused by HIV. Do you see the difference? Ian.thomson (talk) 00:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:ICANTHEARYOU seems to be a problem with this editor. However, circumcision is not mentioned in Misconceptions about HIV/AIDS which may be because according to our article on Circumcision and HIV the World Health Organisation "and the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS) stated that male circumcision is an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention but should be carried out by well trained medical professionals and under conditions of informed consent". Now this may be, as the tag says, outdated, but if " many Black people claim(ed) that they are immune to HIV since they are circumcised." there seems to be ample reason for this belief, correct or not. Dougweller (talk) 09:02, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. While I think it is possible that adding of some of the material presented here could have a rightful place in the misconceptions article (the belief is, after all, incorrect, and therefore represents a misconception) it clearly has no basis for inclusion here. I would encourage Zezen to bring this up on the misconceptions article talk page. . --Supaflyrobby (talk) 13:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your judicious advice. I will try to introduce such section by reaching consensus on misconceptions article talk page. instead of editing this one then. (I will be a tad busy over the next couple of days, so will not be able to contribute for a while.)

Zezen (talk) 14:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

See Also[edit]

Is there a particular reason for removing "denialism" from this list? I realize it is now hyperlinked in the lede, but since our current list is relatively brief, I see no cause for it's removal below as it might be a logical progression for a reader finishing the article. Supaflyrobby (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:SEEALSO, "As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes." Yobol (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Lead[edit]

The first sentence of the lead currently reads, "HIV/AIDS denialism is the belief, contradicted by conclusive medical and scientific evidence, that human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) does not cause acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS)." The words, "contradicted by conclusive medical and scientific evidence" are unnecessary. The lead already made it absolutely clear that AIDS denialism is wrong before that addition, so the added clause is absolutely pointless. There never was a good reason for that addition, and I believe it should now be removed. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:22, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I think the clause makes it clear why it is a form of "denialism" as opposed to some other belief. It is succinct, and makes a clear definition in the very first sentence. I see no reason to remove it. Yobol (talk) 03:28, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
Nonsense. It's just adding words that equate to "AIDS denialism is wrong" to an article that already said "AIDS denialism is wrong." If it makes clear that AIDS denialism is "denialism", then so did the information already in the lead. So, it is unnecessary. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:33, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
It needs to be made clear from the jump that the denialists are factually wrong. The mere fact that the name of the article uses the term "denialism" in it's title (which is a psychological/sociological concept) does not eliminate our responsibility to add plain language clarity to our lead. Similarly, I see no justification for removal, but I will wait for others to chime in. Supaflyrobby (talk) 03:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
What is necessary is that the lead not insult the intelligence of its readers by containing needless repetition, which is what your pointless addition amounts to. The lead was already perfectly "plain language" clear. Anyone who reads the lead, even without the addition, will see that AIDS denialism is wrong. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:46, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Yobol and Supaflyrobiy. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:11, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Yobol and Supaflyrobby as well. I think it's important to make it clear from the opening why it is a form of "denialism."Dustinlull (talk) 18:31, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
The lead is the "opening" of the article and already made it clear that AIDS denialism is wrong. It's strange to see so many people supporting the current version of the lead without giving any real reasons. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 18:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
The first sentence needs to establish this belief as incorrect. That is missing without the additional phrase. It is fine for it to be explained in more detail later in the lede and again in the body of the article. VQuakr (talk) 20:31, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
I do not agree that the first sentence needs to establish that AIDS denialism is wrong, and the page you linked to does not support your position in any way, rather the reverse. It states, "The first sentence should tell the nonspecialist reader what, or who, the subject is". In other words, the first sentence should simply explain what "AIDS denialism" is, not make any comment about its correctness or lack of it.
Besides that, even if you were right and the first sentence did need to say that AIDS denialism is wrong, there would still be no justification for the repetition in the lead. It would be easy to rewrite the lead so that it explains that AIDS denialism is wrong in the first sentence, without saying again that AIDS denialism is wrong later in the lead. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:35, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
"In other words, the first sentence should simply explain what "AIDS denialism" is, not make any comment about its correctness or lack of it." I hear what you're saying, but with a "denialism" topic, the "incorrectness" is part of the subject's definition. The fact that HIV denialism contradicts scientific consensus is precisely what makes it "denialism" as opposed to "skepticism" or some other position.Dustinlull (talk) 12:38, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Exactly, I think this is what we are all saying 'It's strange to see so many people supporting the current version of the lead without giving any real reasons' We've pretty much all given the same reason. Dbrodbeck (talk) 13:25, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

If you want to establish the incorrectness of AIDS denialism in the first sentence, then all you need to do is to say, "AIDS denialism is the erroneous belief that..." The clause about AIDS denialism being contradicted by conclusive scientific evidence is not necessary and needlessly repeats other material in the lead. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 07:44, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
The core basis and defining attribute of HIV/AIDS denialism is that it is a belief, which is contradicted by scientific principals. For this reason this article is part of a category which groups it with other articles of this nature. The reason it is in this category needs to be explicitly mentioned in the lead. In the past attempts have been made, by the subjects cited in this article (some of whom have a great deal of public influence) to convince others that the subject of this article is supported by medical science. These claims are false, they have been proved false. The proof of this is by necessity part (I would say the large part) of the article's content. The text in the lead is simply providing a summary of the article's full body, exactly as if should do. Other articles on pseudo-science are also written in this manner (compare homeopathy). There's no need to remove anything from the lead that clarifies the medical position on this medical related subject. The words "non-scientific" or "contradicted by medical science" or any phrasing of that nature will stay in the Lead. This article is not comparable to creationism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.246.77.14 (talk) 08:34, 17 March 2016 (UTC)