Talk:A noite do castelo

'A Noite do Castelo' or 'A noite do castelo'?

Des anyone know Portugese capitalization? --Kleinzach 06:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes! I am a Portuguese language native as pointed in my user page. Ordinarily, if you were simply usig the words "A noite do castelo" in any given ordinary article, you would spell it with only the first letter capitilized. But, according to the conventional spelling system of the Portuguese language, the "Brazilian Orthographic Treaty" of 1943, approved by the Academia Brasileira de Letras (Brazilian Academy of Letters) as wel as approved in the adapted text of the Law number (Lei n') 5.765 of Dec. 18, 1971, decreed by the Brazilian National Congress, and signed by the Brazilian President, Emílio G. Médici, Article XVI, EMPRÊGO DAS INICIAIS MAIÚSCULAS (in English: "Usage of Capital Letters"), "paragraph 9", it reads: "Nos títulos de livros, jornais, revistas, produções artísticas, literárias e científicas: Imitação de Cristo, Horas Marianas, Correio da Manhã, Revista Filológica, Transfiguração (de Rafael), Norma (de Bellini), O Guarani (de Carlos Gomes), O Espírito das Leis (de Montesquieu), etc." (transl. to English: "In the title of books, newspapers, magazines, artistic, literary and scientific productions:..." (it goes on to cite several examples, including the title of an opera by Carlos Gomes). There is also an observation in the mentioned treaty, noting that you must not capitalize monosyllabic particles within compound vocables or within expressions or locutions. Thus, "A Noite do Castelo" is the correct way to spell the title of an operatic production. You can also verify what I have just translated on a webpage URL, at: FORMULÁRIO ORTOGRÁFICO DE 1943. Note that this apply only to Portuguese from Brazil, as in Portugal and other Portuguese spoken countries this rule does not apply! I hope that I have made this clear to you.KerrBr (talk) 23:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, respect original language spelling

The New Grove Dictionary of Opera as well as the WikiProject Opera state (you can read the wiki policy under "Operas: original language titles"): "When listing operas by their original language title (provided that language uses the Latin alphabet), the spelling in the original language, including any accents and diacritics, should be preserved". This opera is in the Brazilian Portuguese language, not Italian, Spanish, or French, nor subject to other language ortographic rules, but Brazilian Portuguese. Please respect Brazillian ortographic rules! The title is originally spelled with capital letters. Please stop changing the spelling to reflect the wrong spelling. If you are still in doubt, you can check the following reference:
Ferreira, Auréiio Buarque de Holanda. Novo Dicionário da Língua Portuguesa. 2nd Edition revista e aumentada, "IX Formulário Ortográfico, XVI - EMPRÊGO DAS INICIAIS MAIÚSCULAS, 9º", p.XIV. Editora Nova Fronteira, Rio de Janeiro, 1986.

The capitalization in Grove is as follows: A noite do castelo

The capitalization in Grove (Béhague, Gerard (1992), 'Gomes, Joao' in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera, ed. Stanley Sadie (London) ISBN 0-333-73432-7) is A noite do castelo. Any statement contradicting this is false. --Kleinzach 08:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Kleinzach, if that is how Grove spelled it, that is clearly a typo, because it certainly is NOT the Brazilian Portuguese Orthographic rule while, for the last time, the opera's title is in Brazilian Portuguese. Is it possible that Grove made an inadvertent typo? ---"To err is human, but to persist with an err is ignorance"! Note that contrary to what you implied in your reply under your discussion page, I am not arguing to "my preference" of spelling, but to the conventional spelling system of a distinct language while WikiProject Opera itself, as you have already read, recommends "the original language" spelling. Funny, does not Grove recommended it? By the way, another opera by the same Brazilian composer, presently in en.Wikiepdia by the title of Il Guarany was written (the opera) originally in Italian, so THAT opera MUST, when spelled in the original language (Italian), use the small case "g", as in "Il guarany". If spelled in Brazilian Portuguese, then, and only then, you would spell it "O Guarani". Perhaps you want to fix that page and other pages that lists Il guarany (opera) in Italian, mistakenly as Il Guarany. If you were to spell it in English, "The Guarany", would you follow the Italian rule and spell it "The guarany" or would you obey the orthographic rules under the Engllish language to spell it the Guarany as in the brazilian novel (see: The Guarani, for the original libretto novel spelled in English). We must not confuse the different latin languages among each other. KerrBr (talk) 23:06, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Grove capitalizes the opera consistently as A noite do castelo. There is no typo. It's also consistent with the editorial rules of the encyclopedia, which are also followed by all the other major publishers and by WP. You may prefer your own style and you are absolutely entitled to use it on your own publications, but when you are editing WP you should follow WP norms.

Re Il Guarany. It is cap G in Grove. Grove has a dedicated article on the opera. The Guarani were a tribe, i.e. Guarani is a proper noun. Please check this out yourself. --Kleinzach 00:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Originally, your question was (I quote it): "Des anyone know Portugese capitalization?". Your question was answered accordingly. Yet, you were not satisfied with the real facts. Thank you much for your input anyway. Hopefully this discussion will help wikipedia editors to spell correctly foreign Latin languages. You only stand ortographically correct if you were speaking of "The Guarany" (or "The Guarani"), as written in the English language. Note that, "Il guarany" (or "Il guaraní") is Italian for the opera's title, NOT English nor the Guarani as in the language spoken. The opera's title refers to the Guarani people, while in Italian ortographic rules, ethnic groups (ie. derivatives, as "the people" or "money", not the language spoken) are spelled in small cases, as you would spell: americano ("American", in English), guaraní ("Guarani", in English), brasiliano ("Brazilian", in English), portoghese ("Portuguese", in English) and so forth. So nowadays the opera's title, when spelled in Italian, must respect Italian ortographic rules. Also, note that when I say, "the native people, not the language", I mean that when writing about the Guarani language Italians should spell "Guaraní" with capital letters, as in "Guaraní" (the language). However, when speaking of the alphabet, the currency, the people, you must spell "guaraní". Herein "en Wiki", we find a very small explanation, but an important one for our discussion, now, on this capital vs. small case usage for the Italian language. Look under Romance languages, where it reads: "Unlike English,... , ...derivatives of proper nouns are usually not capitalized: thus, in Italian one capitalizes Francia ("France") and Francesco ("Francis"), but not francese ("French") or francescano ("Franciscan")." Thus guarani (as in "the people"), one must spell it with a small case initial, just as they would spell "francese" (ie. the French people). Perhaps the composer, Carlos Gomes, spelled the Italian title, back in the 1870, as he would spell it in Portuguese, while people, today, like to perpetuate his old fashion usage style. It certainly is not the case with WP policy which tell us to use the original and current language style. To clear this "mess" further in what may seem a bit confusing to people not native to these latin languages: in Brazilian Portuguese, all of these nouns (derivative of native people, not the language spoken) are ALSO spelled in small case (ie. americano, guarani, brasileiro, português...etc), while the only reason Brazilians spell the opera, "O Guarani", in Brazilian Portuguese, with capital initials (ie. Guarani) is due to the reason given to you earlier (above) under the ortographic rules for Brazilian Portuguese (ie. "artistic, literary and scientific productions must be spelled with all capitalized initials," as in "A Noite do Castelo"). Otherwise, in Brazilian Portuguese, when not speaking of artistic productions, but just speaking of a people of any nation in a given article, it would spell "O guarani", or "O americano", etc, etc... I do not mean to be picking on you, by any means, nor Grove. You can all go on spelling these titles however you would prefer. But if we are going to respect the different languages' ortographic rules, we must be more careful of how we spell words in foreign Latin languages. I am quite aware of how several English language publications treat foreign words the same way as if they were spelling it in English, however, in Italy or Brazil, their people do not speak Grovian, or Grovese, nor follow Grove's ortographic rules, but in these countries they speak Italian and Portuguese with their own original rules, respectively. you keep pointing me at WP policy, but WP policy is very clear. Perhaps, we should modify WikipediaProject Opera to reflect that we should spell opera titles the same way as spelled in Grove, and not the way the original language spells it.

KerrBr (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a publication that is copyedited according to guidelines, not according to personal preferences. As it is a publication the reader comes first. If you disagree with the guidelines you can of course suggest that they are changed. (Not all guidelines are necessarily good, many of them can be improved.) But until they are changed you should follow them. In this case the guideline on WP is based on the house styles of the most important publishers of books on opera and music. Trying to change the style on one article is called a point attack which is disapproved of on WP. --Kleinzach 01:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I really do not know where you are reading me so wrongly. Do not change my point of view, please! I am only urging us to follow the very guideline. I am the one trying to follow it, here. This Brazilian Portuguese opera has already been fixed from your trying to change it against Wikipedia's guideline. Now, what I suggested lastly was the very fact that Il guarany title, presently and clearly does not follow WikipediaProject Opera GUIDELINE. It seems like we are just going in circles here while I am not going to keep trying to explain this to you over and over. You will only understand it if you allow yourself to. KerrBr (talk) 10:25, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

KerrBr, you write: ''This Brazilian Portuguese opera has already been fixed from your trying to change it against Wikipedia's guideline." Please explain. Who has fixed what? --Kleinzach 12:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Opera prevails

Excuse ME, Klein, but you are mistaken, while trying to twist this issue around! I am only following en.wikipedia's WikiProject Opera policy. Please read on:

the spelling in the original language, including any accents and diacritics, should be preserved

I have quoted this rule from the very WikiProject Opera policy, under "Operas: original language titles". Have a good day! KerrBr (talk) 05:14, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Please stop shouting. It's undignified. --Kleinzach 05:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

KerrBr, you are confusing spelling and inherent word capitalization with title capitalization format. They are not the same thing. This would only be a spelling issue if the words "noite" and "castelo" are always capitalized in Brazilian Portuguese even when they are not part of a title, in the same way that "Monday" is always capitalized in English (unlike "lunedì", its equivalent in Italian, which is never capitalized unless it is the first word in a sentence). However, if you are determined to keep a title format at odds with the major opera reference works and inconsistent with the standard editorial guidelines used on the Opera Project and to keep reverting it, I'll add a footnote to the article re the capitalization used in Grove, The Harvard Biographical Dictionary of Music, etc. Voceditenore (talk) 06:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Voiceditenore, please, note that the rules for spelling titles (operas', movies', books', compositions', etc...) in the Brazilian Portuguese language are exactly the same as in the English Language! Are the words "night " and "castle" not spelled with capital letters in the English translation for the Brazilian title? Are those English words(night and castle) also "inherent" (as you said of "Monday"), of capital letters (rethoric)? If the rules in Brazilian Portuguese for spelling titles are the same as in the English language, the spelling of noite and castelo in the Brazilian title must be with capital letters as well! I am not confusing capitalization formats at all, but I believe you (and Grove) are! Find some body else who understand a little more about the Brazilian Portuguese language than you (or Grove) to argue with me. KerrBr (talk) 01:04, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand perfectly the conventions for the capitalization of titles used in Brazilian Portuguese and that unlike "Portuguese" Portuguese, and like English, all major word classes in the title are capitalized. I was simply pointing out that title format in an article (or book) is not the same thing as the spelling inherent to individual words, i.e. when they don't appear in a title. Title format in English publications is an editorial style. The Opera Project uses the editorial style known as "sentence capitalization" for all non-English titles. In other words, the title is rendered as it would be in a sentence in that language. It is the style used by all major reference books and publishers in English (and in many other languages as well), as well as in most library cataloging systems. We're not arguing that title conventions in Brazilian Portuguese are "wrong" or that you are wrong about the capitalization used in Brazilian Portuguese. We are pointing out the uniform style for rendering non-English titles which we use for consistency across opera articles within Wikipedia and with the major English language reference works on the subject. Voceditenore (talk) 08:11, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Voceditenore, that changes our discussion direction once again, since we have started on this page. But I must say again: "not so"! Clearly not all non-English titles here fall within the "editorial style" you have suggested. Wikipedia Project Opera clearly describes under "Operas: original language titles" (per Grove, Oxford and Viking) exactly how to follow particular editorial style with different languages, being that Spanish, French and Italian coincidently have the same orthographic style. But also, it clearly describes how different the editorial style is for the titles of German language operas used here (per Grove, Oxford and Viking) while pointing it out for not being the same at all as the other three foreign languages besides English. Perhaps you forgot about that one language also when you said "all non-English titles." So the examples given with a few different languages leads us to believe in using different editorial styles not "sentence capitalization." Clearly, different languages call for different styles, which we should always respect when these encyclopedias are trying to tell us in bold letterings... "the spelling in the original language..." and then describing each editorial style separately. The real issue here, in Wikipedia, is that somewhere along the lines of creating the guidelines for foreign opera titles one has completely left Brazilian Portuguese language out of the question, for one, among some other languages, yet that is not a major problem at all if we are only to understand that Wikipedia is a work-in-progress process while keeping the editorial style while spelling in "the original language" for Brazilian Portuguese, as we do for the German language, for instance, or any other languages. I can guarantee you, when Grove, Oxford, or Vicking, wake up for Brazilian Portuguese operas they may note different rules for spelling that language as well. You would be wiser to follow "original language titles" in their very own editorial style, or you will have much editing to do ahead with all those German opera titles to fit in your "sentence capitalization." KerrBr (talk) 08:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

We have not left Brazilian Portuguese "out of the equation". We treat it the same as the other non-English titles, using a "sentence capitalization" editorial style. As for German operas, all nouns are capitalized in German sentences. Hence, there is nothing to change in the current titles for those articles. In other words, we follow the "sentence captitalization" style there as well. There is no "exception" for German. I've now explained this all as best I can and our reasons for using this style. If you wish to continue taking this as a slight on or ignorance of Brazilian Portuguese, and plan on moving the article back and forth, etc. there's not much more I can say. I prefer to concentrate on expanding this article and creating related articles which is a far better and considerably more enjoyable use of my time. Voceditenore (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Impartiality

I wrote the artcile. I am not the one who kept going back to change the way it was first written. I first wrote it correctly. No need to change it at all in the first place. Obviously, Kleinzach did not know how to spell it in Brazilian Portuguese, or he would not have started this thread asking for help from someone who knew Brazilian-Portuguese editorial style. Now you guys will not even allow me to make the tiniest footnote on the reference sub-section describing the correct orthographic style to spell the opera title in Brazilian Portuguese. Some type of aversion for the correct original language! What kind of enyclopedia are you guys running here when you do not even want to allow the reader to learn how to spell the title of a foreign language correctly? Do you own this article?
Changing the capitalization title of this Brazilian-Portuguese opera article to reflect the way you personally prefer under the excuse that WIkipedia follows the "sentence capitalization" guidelines for operas in "all" non-English languages while keeping the titles for the German language operas under an exclusively different editorial style violates Wikiepdia's impartiality principle. Not only the WIkiOpera Project points out (not the sentence capitalization usage but) the original language style for editing articles, but every where else in Wikipedia help articles recommends the original language usage.
see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Capital_letters for "Capital letters", it reads:
"Main article: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)
There are differences between the major varieties of English in the use of capitals (uppercase letters). Where this is an issue, the rules of the cultural and linguistic context apply."

and also:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)> "Capital letters are sometimes a matter of regional differences; for example, British writers and editors are more inclined to use them than their North American counterparts. If possible, as with spelling, use rules appropriate to the cultural and linguistic context." KerrBr (talk) 07:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

There are over 5,000 articles on opera in Wikipedia. The Opera Project systematically edits these for consistency according to guidelines. From time to time some editor wants to make an exception of an article, as in this case, but this is not possible. The reader must come first, and the reader is ill served by inconsistency. The capitalization systems used by WP are not the only ones, however they do have the virtue of general consistency and compatibility with the style used by the major publishers of opera encyclopedias and reference works: Oxford, Macmillan, Viking etc.--Kleinzach 08:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer, Kleinzach! We have all argued this long enough. Every time you guys are giving a different reason for not accepting the correct Brazilian spelling. You already know about the Brazilian Portuguese spelling, as well as Voceitenore has agreed how correct my capitalization of the Brazilian Portuguese is. You guys could well leave it alone or as Wikipedia grows (hopefully) there will be more and more editors for Brazilian Portuguese surfing these grounds in the future and reversing the orthographically incorrect capitalization (ie. all small case letters). I am not trying to have a beef with you guys. I simply tried to help when you asked for help! It is perfectly clear that you want to make sure the spelling on all operas are correct. What is not clear is the non acceptance and impartiality towards what has grown out of the spelling that has nothing to do with German, Spanish, French or Italian or any other inconsistencies. I can see where trouble may arise out of inconsistencies. But mispelling Brazilian Portuguese is the only inconsistency, while persisting on the misspelling will mislead the reader who seeks for truth and knowledge, giving little credit to Wikipedia when the reader learns the proper usage from some other source. I am not making the rules here. I am just following them. KerrBr (talk) 09:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

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