Talk:Abbey of Vangadizza

Move

The edit summary for an earlier move was "Rococo1700 moved page Talk:Abbey of Vangadizza to Talk:Vangadizza Abbey: All benedictine abbeys in US are named "proper name" then Abbey, makes for easier listing". However as there is probably no customary English name there seems no good reason to apply American practice when an abbey's name is a translation from Italian. In any case "Abbey of the Vangadizza" would be the best translation from the Ittalian name. Any comments welcome.--Johnsoniensis (talk) 20:24, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

User:Rococo's views, although given completely in good faith, are possibly wrong and in any case besides the point: s/he was mistakenly trying to deal in a single move with a group of names in widely differing formats, which was bound to fail. All his/her moves were reverted, also as a group. This particular one however was in fact correct. I moved the article to what in this instance is the most usual form of name of abbeys when the base is the name of the place they're in. I have no idea what the usual US practice is regarding the names of modern abbeys, and it doesn't matter: the usual English language form of name when as here the base is the placename is [Place] Abbey, not Abbey of [Place]. Look at e.g. Category:Benedictine monasteries in England.Eustachiusz (talk) 22:52, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

While I'm sure that everyone is trying to get this right to the best of their ability, I think that (a) moving it again after I moved it back as "undiscussed" could not reasonably be interpreted as uncontroversial and (b) that any discussion of the "usual" practice in any variety of English is irrelevant. What's needed is to see what this abbey is called in reliable English-language sources. Google is such an unreliable instrument that I hesitate to use it at all (searching for "Abbazia della Vangadizza" in books written in English returns only books written in Italian). However, adding "abbey" to that search throws up several serious-looking English-language books that use the Italian name. Three of the first four results I get for "Vangadizza Abbey" are in fact for "Vangadizza, Abbey (of)", whereas "Abbey of Vangadizza" gives several real results. Eustachiusz, may I suggest that your move was questionable at best, and that you undo it? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:29, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

COMMONNAME without further thought with titles like these is not much use. They need a combination of COMMONNAME and translation considerations, since there is also a significant translation element, almost invariably overlooked, with consequences as here. The previous move WAS discussed, despite what you write above, but the initiator gave up in frustration halfway through. I will now do the same, as I don't want to repeat the whole thing. I am unable to undo the move myself, however - I have tried. Eustachiusz (talk) 19:16, 17 January 2017 (

Thanks for doing that, Eustachiusz, much appreciated. Just in case it isn't completely clear from the above, in my opinion WP:RM would be the right way to go if you or Rococo1700 or anyone else thinks this page should be moved, and believes it important enough to expend the necessary effort. Meanwhile, thanks again, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:19, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

And again

This article came up on my Watchlist, where I didn't remember it: I moved it again without checking the background because now as then it looks wrong to me - sorry. I'm in no doubt that the best name is V Abbey but there is no point sending it back again to WP:RM, so yet again I'll return it to the previous title. Eustachiusz (talk) 16:11, 19 March 2018 (UTC)