Talk:Alan L. Hart

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POV[edit]

Seeing as the person who raised the "The neutrality of this article is disputed." marker has not even had time to read the article ofr check the sources of the references and links, I assume it is vandalism or simply someone not happy with another TG or TS based article?

Sadly he has not chosen to write his reasons for adding this within three minutes of my publishing the article in this Talk list, so I am not sure what to do now?

Regards Petra H. PeH88 (talk) 19:29, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for not adding my rationale sooner. I would dispute the neutrality of the article as throughout the language used and the style in which it presented is overly personal and often overwhelmingly positive whilst lacking sources for verification. It is hard to give specific examples as I think it is more the overall tone of the article which does not present the information from a neutral, encyclopaedic perspective rather than the specifics of the language used. I do not think anything other than a thorough copyedit could really "fix" the problems but in the meantime if the {{npov}} tag is to be removed I would suggest it to be replaced by {{tone}}. Guest9999 (talk) 03:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
After rereading the article (again) I've had some additional thoughts. Regarding neutrality I think an additional problem with the article is that to some extent it acts as a coatrack(links to essay) for a POV on a separate - albeit related - topic. A lot of the information seems to relate only indirectly to the subject and instead at points throughout the article a case is presented for a specific view on the wider issues of gender identification and sexuality. These issues should be fully discussed in other articles that directly deal with the topics but are probably not presented appropriately in this article. As an alternate example the article on Neil Armstrong shouldn't be focussed around an argument for whether or not the moon landings were real or faked - all the information directly relates to the events of his life and the topics relating to him (moonlanding, gemini 11, etc.) are presented in the context of how he was involved. This article was obviously written by an editor with a lot of passion and knowledge of the subject matter but in this case I believe that this has - to a very fixable extent - clouded their objectivity. I did not add the tag as an attack, just as a pointer towards a way in which I think the article should be improved to meet Wikipedia's content standards. Guest9999 (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello Guest9999,
Thanks for at least taking the time to make a comment, then I was really surprised that you were so quick to mark the article and clearly had not had time to read it fully, to follow the sources or look elsewhere on the Internet. I assume you are not an expert on the Transsexual issues of this Article? The reason these matters are so closely connected and discussed in conjunction with Hart is because his life was taken by two competing interest (First Lesbian, then the Transsexual) and over the years many conflicting publications about Hart have hijacked his real history and lived life as a man, to make him a Lesbian Hero/Heroine. I have tried to remain neutral and not deny the "(Controversy) Kidnapped by the Lesbians" which is reported everywhere in any article about Hart in recent times, and leave it up to the intelligence of the readers to decide which truth they wish to believe of follow.
In an article written by Michell M. about Alan Hart, originally published in Transgender Community News (TCN), in October 2001, and an update covering the controversy separately in TCN April, 2002, The following excellent description of the life of Hart and the problem about this controversy appears: "Early articles by several authors (including Cook) referred to Hart as a lesbian rather than a transman and this still remains a point of contention in some quarters of the Northwest. I covered this controversy separately in TCN April, 2002."
If you are not yet a member of the Yahoo or any other Transhistory group, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TransHistory from which the article in Message No. 1611, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TransHistory/message/1611 is discussing the Transgender Community News (TCN) articles about him, alternatively you can go to the http://www.sexchange.us/transhistory.html page and read that "1995 - Transsexual activists protest the stealing of TS/TG History by the Gay & Lesbian community. Efforts by the Ad Hoc Committee to grant recognition of Alan Hart successfully pressure Oregon’s Right to Privacy (RTP, now known as “Right to Pride”) political action committee to cease using Alan Hart's old name as an award given out to Gay & Lesbian rights activists" or on http://www.albertatrans.org/history.shtml that "1977 - Jonathan Ned Katz publishes Gay American History: Lesbians and Gay Men in the U.S.A. and the connection between Jonathan Gilbert's "H" and Dr. Alan Hart, but asserts Hart as a lesbian, effectively stealing transgender history."
If on the otherhand you are not interested in Transhistory or understand the reason the mention of Harts name may cause controversy or be misused depending upon when people read books about him, or if reading them now, when they were originally written and for waht reason, then your not understanding why these issues have to be mentioned alongside his name and not on some other page in Wikipedia as you suggested, is quite easily understood and forgiven.
If I did not mention all of this from the start in the Article, then there would be a number of unnecessary corrections back and forth by people who maybe not knowing any better found on the one side books and reports about awards in his name for being a Lesbian, and on the other for him being a Transman, to save this happening I would rather provide all details I can find or know about him, and maybe someone better than I can edit this into a more condensed and yet still comprehensive review of his long and successful life. In honour of the fact many older people alive today or stemming from parents or Grandparents who befitted from the work and dedication of Mr. Hart and his work I felt it is appropriate to write such a long and detailed article about him and his life, and not the often here in Wikipedia found "three paragraphs". Remember in the Articles in the Internet about him, some concentrate only on his sexual identity, some on his name as a writer, and some on his medical life, but never everything in one single place. Best regards Petra H. --PeH88 (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I see that some of the wording of this is unsourced opinion, so I can see why a {{POV}} tag was added. I've added an {{essaylike}} tag instead. Sentences like "Anyone ignoring Hart's own self-identity and his achievements as a man, not only insults him and his wife, but also lesbians and women with female brains worldwide." are POV, don't belong in an encyclopedia article unless they can be cited using a reliable source. Please note that this isn't an attack on the subject matter, and that this is true whether or not I know anything about the subject. Thanks. Katr67 (talk) 02:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Further, sentences such as "Maybe these incidences helped form his determination to become a doctor and work on curing diseases?" are inappropriate for an encyclopedia, as we don't generally ask questions, we answer them. If this was meant as a rhetorical question, see WP:NOTTEXTBOOK. Aboutmovies (talk) 09:48, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


Hello Katr67, AND also Hello Aboutmovies Thank you both for your help. I am relatively new to Wikipedia, and so anything I write will need some guidance and assistance or correction. Despite that I want to try to provide all I can that I have found out about this person and even if in the wrong style or tone, am sure is useful to others and maybe someone who enjoys copy-writing or editing can make usefull sense of it?
Many of the lines I noted over the years were from sites and reports that I had found on line, that like so many internet pages were soon gone. Some of the others were from PDFs that I had downloaded while collecting the information, and it is difficult to backtrace the original source. However I am still trying, (Have found and added several today).

Best Regards Petra. PeH88 (talk) 17:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi all - I'm one of those someones who likes copy editing, and I've had a crack at this today. Hope this satisfies everyone involved, at least to be going on with. Gonzonoir (talk) 14:48, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello Gonzonoir,

thanks, every little bit helps. And I know I did not make it easy for you, but it was a lot of hard work to put everything that I had found into that initial start version and after a while it gets to a point of continue "editing and discovering more to add and prevent publishing while being re-written" forever and never putting it up on Wiki, or drawing a line and deciding to "publish and be dammed"... You got stuck with the latter decision... lol.

Best Regards and thanks again,

Petra --PeH88 (talk) 00:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

No worries Petra - that's what's neat about Wikipedia. We can share the load :) Gonzonoir (talk) 00:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the date of Hart's death is wrong on the Wikipedia entry and I have corrected it on OutHistory.org, based on Brian Booth's chronology of Hart's life, giving the source. I have also pointed to lots of missing source citations for factual claims or interpretive opinions about Hart. It would be great if someone interested would work on filling in these missing citations on Wikipedia and on OutHistory.org. Jonathan Ned Katz68.161.163.31 (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2011 (UTC), jnk123@mac.com, Co-Director, OutHistory.org

See: http://outhistory.org/wiki/Alberta_Lucille_Hart/Alan_L._Hart:_October_4,_1890-July_1,_1962