Talk:Apache (Viet Cong soldier)

Reviewer Note

There is a long and contentious history of this topic. There have two AFDs with different results. Review of this draft must take that history into account, and the history must be preserved. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:06, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Further Reviewer Note

In my opinion, although the true Vietnamese name of the subject is apparently not known, and although she does not satisfy military notability, enough has been written about her by reliable sources as listed in this draft that she satisfies general notability. There is more than a 50% chance that this will survive a third AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:53, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Copy/attribution

Text seems very similar to this 5 year old reddit post. As in too similar. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedy deleted as an unambiguous copyright infringement, because... (this was also from Military Wiki; Reddit probably copied that from the military wiki, so Reddit should be accused for copyright violation) --72.229.7.184 (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

So you need to show the original -wherever it is - has the right sort of copyright notice that allows reuse in Wikipedia. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

See below - wolf 12:56, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I've declined the speedy deletion request. See this old revision that existed before the reddit post. Anarchyte (talk • work) 16:04, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Like I mentioned below, the article went thru it's first AfD 7 years ago. I've since tagged both AfDs on the talk page header. - wolf 17:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

This appears to be recreation of previously deleted article

After some digging I found this Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Apache (Viet Cong soldier) (2nd nomination).

Likely the Reddit reused wiki or mirror thereof. But also that means this article is due for deletion if nothing has changed since the deletion discussion. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:08, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

It appears that the AfD you're referring to (from 7 years ago), did not result in deletion, but in merge/redirect. It also appears this iteration of the article was submitted to AfC and approved (just 2 weeks ago). Lastly, I'm not sure why an editor needs to prove this isn't a copy of a reddit article, if all the info in this article is appropriately sourced and not a direct word-for-word copy of any copyrighted material. Is there any copies or close phrasing of other sources, then I'm sure the creator will adjust as needed. I think the objective here should be to assist an inexperienced editor and assist with any needed improvements to this article. (jmho) - wolf 12:56, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Have a look at User_talk:72.229.7.184. History of problems with copyright and attribution. GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:03, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Well, either they learn the rules and fix the page, or if they perist in violating them, they get blocked. But the fate of that editor and this article needn't necessarily be the same. - wolf 13:28, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Date of birth

The date, 1/1/1936, seems to approximate. There were probably few birth certificates in Vietnam at that time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c4:4e9f:d101:7016:4912:bb40:6241 (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Existence of "Apache"

Is there a non-Hathcock based source on this woman? Photos of her, military records, birth certificate, CPV membership? I would love to be proved wrong, but this seems to me like another "Erwin Koenig" story. Andro611 (talk) 22:44, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

There's a dozen sources, none of them are Hathcock. Do you have any sources that state 'Apache' is an apocryphal character? - wolf 04:54, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

On this article, all the sources lead back to Hathcock. I do not doubt that he talked about a character called "Apache" after the war, it may even be that contemporary US Marines talked about a character called "Apache". That isn't really much evidence that such a person existed. Furthermore, the details of the supposed existence of this individual ring very, very untrue. There are several RS which refer to "Apache" as a legend, particularly the most notable mention of her, the one in the reliable secondary source by academic Jerry Lembcke, which devotes two pages to the myth. Hopefully someone can look at that and put the story in its correct context. For my two cents, this looks like a US soldier (or US soldiers) attempting to justify their killings of female Vietnamese soldiers and civilians, but we all know what opinions are like.Boynamedsue (talk) 14:46, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

"'this looks like a US soldier (or US soldiers) attempting to justify their killings of female Vietnamese soldiers and civilians..." - Wow. I would strongly encourage you to strike that and apologize. There are many Vietnam vets, their families and such, as well as other vets, that all use WP and could read this page and that take as a slap to the face. We're long past spitting on Vietnam vets at airports, we shouldn't be doing it here either. - wolf 18:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Vietnam veterans didn't kill women or they didn't fell guilty about it? The first is better documented than the second, but I reckon both are quite easy to source. Still, not a forum. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I am suggesting that Wikipedia articles and talk pages are not the place for this kind of discourse. Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX, nor a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. If you're looking for content about the war, head over to → here. There is also a section on war crimes. If the content on that article is not complete or sourced to your satisfaction, feel free to discuss it there. - wolf 21:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, luckily enough Fracassa's view of the Apache story is very similar to mine, so there's a happy ending where my opinion above doesn't look out of place. It's perhaps best not to ask people to apologise for saying things that Vietnam vets and their relatives might not like tho...not censored etc. Boynamedsue (talk) 22:33, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

"Not censored etc." - applies to article content. This is a talk page where some decency and decorum are excpected. Your comments were both provocational and needlessly offensive, hence the suggestion you strike them and apologize. You refuse to do that, so... that's on you. I think we're done here. - wolf 03:30, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Easy to source? There is enough evidence to get the falsehood removed that the VC and NVA did not participate in atrocities, but oddly enough, it is still listed on here. 2600:8805:A985:4300:3905:B1B6:9F63:FD28 (talk) 00:06, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

There is evidence that the Vietnamese committed war crimes, as did the Americans. The type of war crimes that "Apache" was supposed to have committed having been perpetrated against US soldiers? Not so much. If somebody had been out there skinning and castrating GI's, we would have a lot more evidence of it. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:57, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Removed unreliable sources

Per a recent discussion at the RS noticeboard, I have removed several sources written by non-historians in the style of dramatised military memoirs. I have also removed the use of the History Channel as a source of information, as HC is not reliable for historical facts. I have also put Hathcock´s very fishy narrative in as much context as possible, as the best sources on this consider the narrative of Apache to be false.Boynamedsue (talk) 07:13, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Sources are sus

After reading Fracassa's article, " "Etica ed estetica del cecchino nella narrativa di Nicolai Lilin" (or "Ethics and aesthetics of the sniper in the fiction of Nicolai Lilin" in English) this is not a proper source for a historical viewpoint. The statement, "However, academics studying the Vietnam war consider these accounts to be untrue" is not supported by Fracassa's words. Fracassa is giving a LITERARY review of the way women are portrayed in military memoirs, specifically comparing how women are portrayed in Charles Henderson's biography "Marine Sniper" and Clint Eastwood's biographical film "American Sniper" with Nicolai Lilin's fictional work. (And the focus of the paper is on Lilin.)

Fracassa is a professor of Literary Criticism and Comparative Literature, not a historian. They aren't giving any judgment on the veracity of Hathcock's version of events, nor are they providing any historical perspective. Nor are they qualified to give either. (Which, again, they are not.)

The comments about Fracassa should be removed. This also makes me suspicious of the value of including Jerry Lembcke as a source, given that the citation is for a highly controversial book (which Lembcke admits himself in the preface) about Jane Fonda. GlenH (talk) 01:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

That is a massive stretch. No historian at all supports the existence of this fictional character, and the Vietnam War is one of the most closely studied periods of all of history. Fracassa's viewpoint is legitimate as a scholar on cultural representations of the Vietnam War, of which Hathcock's tall story is one. As for Lembcke, it is without doubt the best scholarly source on the page, you seem to be falling foul of Wp:JUSTDONTLIKEIT Boynamedsue (talk) 16:39, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Hathcock's kill was confirmed, meaning a verifier was present to confirm it. Lembcke is a sociologist who is speculating revisionist history. He is going directly against primary sources and suggesting numerous people who were there are liars. Lembcke isn't a "scholarly source" and I'm very confused to see the current state of this article. 2600:6C60:40F0:4AB0:9441:D291:B14C:649C (talk) 18:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

What is your source that this kill was confirmed? What sources not going back to Hathcock claim Apache existed?Boynamedsue (talk) 07:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)