Talk:Apple Inc. and unions

Direction of article

By virtue of the contentious topics covered here, the viewpoints will be highly critical, I am inspired by this essay Wikipedia:Criticisms of society may be consistent with NPOV and reliability. Covering a large company like Apple is a challenge, but so is building the largest encyclopedia. Future improvements will need to look in depth in the various worker mechanisms particularly in Foxconn and Apple's unique culture in the US of employee retention/secrecy Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Unused sources

(Feel free to directly add/remove as they're used in article.

• Apple admits breaking the law in China; Fortune Mag
• Uigher camps WaPo article
• Verite auditor kicked out of China; Wall Street Journal
• IndustriALL flags iPhone 6 labour violations Philippines
• 2012 Atlantic; why apple retail workers should unionize
• LEE, CHING KWAN (2016). "Precarization or Empowerment? Reflections on Recent Labor Unrest in China". The Journal of Asian Studies. 75 (2): 317–333. ISSN 0021-9118.
• Apple shuttle drivers/teamsters union
• SIWA, JANE ALEXANDRA; VILIRAN, JESSICA (2016). "Taming Class Conflict? Industrial Peace and Workers' Resistance in the Philippines, 2001-2016". Philippine Sociological Review. 64: 41–72. ISSN 0031-7810.

~ Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 22:56, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that ahead of the iPhone 4S launch, Italian Apple retail store workers in Rome went on strike, featuring the slogan "Strike Different", a wordplay on Apple's "Think Different"? Source: Cult of Mac

• Reviewed: Under 5 DYK nominations so not applicable

Created by Shushugah (talk). Self-nominated at 11:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC).

• I have some concerns about this article that are more fundamental than the issues normally brought up at DYK. Despite the title of the article, the article content is a grab-bag of tangentially-related information. The lead does not mention worker organizations: it gives general information about Apple Inc. We get a list of incidents of industrial action, some of which mention unions and some don't. Space is given to #AppleToo which is a hashtag, not an organization. The China section mentions Apple contracting the Fair Labour Association. This doesn't make the Fair Labour Association an Apple worker organization, and it's hard to say what about the article topic is being said by that section.

So first, this needs work to become an article about what it purports to be about. Lots of suitable sources have been assembled and cited inline correctly, and this itself is very good work. The observations about how many workers Apple employs, that strikes occurred in different countries, and that Apple employees spoke out on social media could be part of an article about worker organizations, but they need text gluing them together and showing the reader how they relate to the topic.

I have lesser, but still relevant, concerns about the writing. In the China section, the tense suddenly changes for some reason. "successfully distances itself from direct responsibility" doesn't sound like neutral phrasing. In the Brazil section, "the local IndustriALL affiliate Brazilian Metalworkers Union was already well prepared" comes out of nowhere. The article needs to describe what the issue was, what the unions were trying to achieve, and then what the outcome was.

The hook uses the term "general strike". It's not clear why "general strike" is used rather than "strike". A "general strike" would imply that the workers' grievance was not against Apple retail stores in particular but that the strike was part of a wider regional or national action. If that's the case, why is it a significant fact about Apple worker organisations? This is an example of the narrative that needs to be filled in for the reader. Are you prepared to add this sort of additional content? MartinPoulter (talk) 15:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

PS I've just noticed that you also were a main contributor to IBM worker organization, and that's an example of what this new article could work towards. The topic of the article is introduced in the first sentence, then the lead expands on the overall context, then individual sections consider aspects of the topic in different countries. More like this please! MartinPoulter (talk) 15:32, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

MartinPoulter Thank you Martin for your extensive feedback. The hook's language uses the term strike. Since the wikilink strike leads to a disambiguation page, I selected a labor related one. Strike action would be more precise than general strike, since it is specific to this Apple store/employer in this case and not more broadly, so I will change that. Regarding your other feedback, I will edit it down for tone/neutral voice. The China section needs a complete rewrite/addition, including about recent independent Foxconn elections at Apple facilities, given that it is also the largest workforce location. I want to avoid making any WP:SYNTH about the relations between each of these actions/strikes. In a similar case, I created Police union, where a fork was created Police unions in the United States, but generally absent in depth coverage in one context, I prefer to keep it all under one article. Covering worker organisations in a large multinational company (unions and other) may be the most challenging endeavour yet, but I think there is ample coverage/sourcing in most cases. I don't quite know how to describe #AppleToo, but it's more than a hashtag, with some publicly associated workers behind it according to several linked articles. I think Italy/the hook is generally done (asides from changing strike target to strike action and I am prepared/will continue working on the other points you have mentioned. I could imagine expanding/renaming the article to Apple labour issues... allegations of Uighur labour and the like are labour issues, but not exactly examples of worker organizations. No one said building the WP:largest encyclopedia was going to be easy 😅 📲 ~ Shushugah (he/him • talk) 15:38, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply. DYK isn't just a check on the hook - which is good! - but a check that there are no major problems with the whole article before it's linked from the front page. Hence it's worth spending time on the fundamental issues of the article's scope and title before it passes DYK. I appreciate the sources don't fit neatly together the way we Wikipedia authors wish they did, and gathering info about the many dimensions of this issue is a lot of work. I want to encourage people to write about labour organization issues and, like I say, you've done good work on this elsewhere, but this article needs serious work before it's ready. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:18, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

MartinPoulter I have added an introductory lede, created a section on Foxconn Trade Union in China and removed non neutral language in Brasil. Do you have a preference timeline wise for a re-review? I was thinking of letting it sit for a few more days, re-reading/seeing if others want to make edits. It's very much a work in progress article. Will continue reading/searching broader analysis about Apple's union free environment in its formal employee workforce, and reliance on labour in limited collective bargaining states (India, Brasil are two exceptions) ~ Shushugah (he/him • talk) 13:51, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Shushugah Already moving in a very good direction. What an improvement to the China section! Happy to return to this next week to give you and others more opportunity to improve it. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

@Shushugah and MartinPoulter, how are we doing on this? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 21:24, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Theleekycauldron and Martin Poulter, the article itself I believe is in a ready state. I will continue to add more about India, and other Chinese manufacturers like Wistron/Pegatron. An open question for me is whether the existing DYK blurb is sufficiently interesting, or if we should use another one, for example the fact that Foxconn Trade Union is the largest trade union in the world, albeit dominated by management? ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 08:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

(unindent) I think the original hook is fine. The article is just about ready. If anything, it's not more China content it needs but it would be useful to expand the short section about Italy. One query: under "Apple Retail Workers Union" you have "which was characterized as union busting". Characterised by whom? I don't see this in the given source. MartinPoulter (talk) 09:36, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

My main areas of concern have been addressed. It would be nice if the really short sections of the article were expanded, but this is not a barrier to DYK. This article is now good to go. MartinPoulter (talk) 11:22, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P6

Use of John Oliver under #AppleToo

• Specific text to be added or removed: a sentiment mirrored on the union busting episode of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver.
• Reason for the change: This phrasing is original research and should not be included in the sentence. Moreover, the reference cited is a primary source, and the clause above is a user's interpretation of that primary source (the episode). We need a secondary source to establish verifiability and that the statement is due.
• References supporting change: N/A

AlexEng^(TALK) 08:48, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I made the change you suggested and agree with you. Unsure if you have a conflict of interest, but {{Request edit}} template is for editors with a WP:COI. Apple worker organizations can be freely edited by anyone otherwise. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:49, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Shushugah. I do have a COI with respect to Apple Inc. as disclosed on my user page. To avoid even the appearance of impropriety, I keep a wide berth from articles even tangentially related to the subject, except through this template. Thanks again for the quick response! AlexEng^(TALK) 11:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Strike numbers

I think a quote should be added to the #Apple Together section, after the statement about the walkout.

• Specific text to be added: According to Janneke Parrish, a former Apple employee involved in organizing the walkout, it is “significant” that workers are speaking out against Apple, despite the fact that the number of employees participating represents a small fraction of Apple’s 80,000 US employees.
• Reason for the change: The HuffPost piece has a salient quote from one of the organizers. I also think that citing the total number of US employees provides context for the size of the action.
• References supporting change: HuffPost piece already in the article.

AlexEng^(TALK) 03:44, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done This is an opinionated statement from a source involved in this action, and therefore not recommended for its inclusion into the article. It would be better to add analysis of the action from people not involved in this campaign, such as academics who studied this action. Z1720 (talk) 16:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Name of various union efforts in USA

Currently the various unionization efforts have a subcategory title listing the name of the efforts, Fruit Stand Workers United, AppleCore etc.. and one of the first initiatives was called Apple Retail Workers Union as in "Cory Moll launched the Apple Retail Workers Union in San Francisco, citing compensation, pay, benefits and hiring processes as motivations."

I don't have a strong opinion on it one way or another, but I think there's confusion whether it's a formal union, or something we Wiki editors came up with as a category name. Pinging @SquareInARoundHole~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:22, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think anyone will be searching for "Apple Retail Workers Union", nor will there be any new content about it. If we add that subcategory, the paragraphs after the first one do not make any sense as they are unconnected to that effort, and more a generalization as it stands in the chronological ordering. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 15:55, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I reworked it with the news that Apple Together is a solidarity union. I added the Apple Retail Workers Union back in with the new structure. Let me know what you think. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 17:09, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Apple worker organizations/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 14:48, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I may use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Links

Prose

Lede

• Like many large technology companies, Apple Inc. has limited recognition of worker organizations. - this feels quite weighted. Could we at least comment on Apple and how many people they employ first? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Y made it less weighted. I kept the employee count/composition inside the industrial composition section, since that flows immediately next still ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• hitting a trillion dollar capital valuation - being valued over $1 trillion in 2018. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Y

• Lede is very short and doesn't really cover much that happens in the rest of the article. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 In progress ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

General

• Any idea why Brazil is before China when China has more influence? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Now sorted United States, China, Brazil with remaining countries sorted alphabetically, am open for other specific ordering suggestions ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 02:04, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Now all countries are alphabetically sorted. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• In 2012, by the time Foxconn opened a second Brazilian factory - I think we are missing some background about when Apple first opened in Brazil. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done I clarified the first was non Apple related, and that in 2012 is when Apple entered Brazil thru Foxconn ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• The infobox in the body isn't suitable. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done there is no infobox anymore. Just a top level image ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• Why is there a main article template half way through a section? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• I've read through the China part - I'm a bit confused how this all relates to Apple. I get these are factories that are creating bits for Apple, but most of the issues seem to be surrounding the factory owner. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I have trimmed this significantly and mainly try highlight that Foxconn is largest assembler for Apple, and that vast majority of their employees work on Apple products. The relation between to the two is complex, but the working conditions/standards and liability is clearly a tug and pull between Foxconn and Apple. Now that Foxconn and unions exists, it's easier for me to tease what might belong in what, though there's an overlap for sure. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 02:04, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• Some of the smaller sections could easily be merged. We don't need a section for a single paragraph. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
• "It's time to Think Different" a play on Apple's slogan "Think Different".[ - we've already mentioned this slogan a section above. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• #AppleToo is ... - so, at this point we have said it's a website, and now we are putting in Twitter handles without explaination. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Explained its shift to Apple Together, and trimmed down the highly anecdotal/individual stories about its founders. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• open letter to Cook - who? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done I provide his title, e.g. CEO Cook ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• stated "This is a - this happens a lot in the article. The quote should follow the grammar of the article, so in this case, no capital letter. Check throughout. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• 1. AppleToo movement using the phrase "From #AppleToo to Apple Together",[60] and the group has used the tagline "Think Equitable", a play on Apple's slogan "Think - I feel like we've already said this a few times. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• Are all these images really fair use? We generally need significant commentary of the contents of a photo to have more than one non-free image in a page. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Happy to remove more of the photos ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 02:04, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done Removed all fair use images and replaced it with one Scholars and Students Against Misbehaviour freely licensed image ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• Apple Workers Union. - bold isn't suitable. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

• Affiliated with GMB Union under the banner of Apple Retail Workers Union. John Slaven of GMB stated that "These workers have shown tremendous courage and resilience to organise themselves. Apple speak the language of social justice but in practice it is the same story of low pay, unfair shift patterns and lack of respect. These workers realise they need an independent voice and that can only come through unionisation". - all uncited. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done I removed quote and focused on facts. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Review meta comments

• I'll begin the review as soon as I can! If you fancy returning the favour, I have a list of nominations for review at WP:GAN and WP:FAC, respectively. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these if you get time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:48, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Shushugah did you have any responses to this? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:58, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Shushugah, have you got time to take a look at this? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:14, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski thank you for the patient pings! A bunch of new sources were added by others, that I wanted to verify/investigate, and then real life events got in the way but I am back. I will commit to completing the review/content by December 20th. You've been only but generous with your time, so let me know if that works for you, absolutely no rush on my end for your final review. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 22:40, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I don't mind waiting Shushugah, but I just want to know it is being worked on. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi Shushugah - might need to prod this one on you. I don't like closing reviews this close to being completed, but there's still some outstanding items to address. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:56, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Lee Vilenski for the nudge. I will finish this today. As I see it; the following issues remain:

• Lede in article can be expanded. Also also within United States section.
• United Kingdom needs a rewrite and to be less SYNTH/PROMO of GMB.
• Order of sections. Simplest could be just alphabetical. I personally leaned towards keeping USA/China on top, but open to keeping it purely Alphabetical. The other sections are small anyways.

Do you think the Foxconn/other manufacturer aspect is more weighted/clear now? And what do you think of the sole remaining image now? I removed the fair use logo/images. What other outstanding issues remain? ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:32, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello Lee Vilenski, I believe I have addressed all of your points, and did a thorough review of all sources, checked for more relevant/updated information and updated where appropriate, particularly in the USA section. Let me know if anything else is needed. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 01:49, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Working conditions

@Avatar317 @Sosorrysalty! I re-inserted relevant criticism of Foxconn union process by Fair Labor Association that was likely accidental, but hard to detect with the major rewrites. Regarding the rewrites in Apple Inc. and unions § China I personally found the working conditions background quite relevant and helpful context for understanding the challenges/dynamics of Chinese trade unionism. Some of it is borrowed from Foxconn and unions § China and Apple supply chain.

I do think working conditions be trimmed to minimum, because an article about working conditions or human rights violation are entire subjects themselves and other country sections would need them. However when we cover collective bargaining demands or motivations for unionization, I see working conditions as inseparable. Could you envision a middle ground? I also did not consider any of this to be WP:OR nor WP:SYNTH but it's a fair question of how to keep WP:FOCUS. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

When RS's discuss unionization drives as motivated by X and Y specific working conditions, then those should be included; other working conditions problems belong in different articles. I agree with you that: "when we cover collective bargaining demands or motivations for unionization, I see working conditions as inseparable", but that should be only when RS's cover unionization drives and certain specific bad work conditions are mentioned as part of that same news coverage.

To illustrate, bad working conditions can involve widespread race-based or sex-based harassment by OTHER CO-WORKERS (not by management) and this may not be a motivation for unionization. ---Avatar317^(talk) 00:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)