Talk:Bella Ramsey

Bella uses they/them pronouns!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Can someone please fix this! 76.175.67.164 (talk) 02:34, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Please cite the source for your statement. The article currently contains three quality sources that disagree. And the GQ interview cited above indicates that Ramsey defaults to "she/her". If the situation has changed, which it might have done, can you give us the superseding source? And, thank you for bringing this to the talk page. Grachester (talk) 02:38, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Vanity Fair has an article on them. Ruxnor 💬 14:46, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

While the article does state Bella as being nonbinary, it is the author of the article that states Bella uses they/them pronouns. Is this simply a summation by the author because Bella is nonbinary? If I was having a conversation with Bella I would use they/them out of respect, however, I feel we need more than the summation of the author of one article to consider that to be overwhelming. That being said, I am not opposed to changing it if consensus among the community is that Bella's pronouns should be changed due to this one article. The article was from May 23rd of this year and may indicate a shift in Bella's stated preferences from older sources. --ARoseWolf 19:27, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

We should take the Vanity Fair article at face value, that Ramsey is now using they/them. This is supported by this recent article in Pink News. For me, this makes the case that Ramsey is more frequently using they/them and I support changing the article to reflect that. Grachester (talk) 20:14, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree. She/her isn't wrong, according to Ramsey, but the Vanity Fair article makes it clear that Ramsey defaults to they/them, so it's logical that Wikipedia does the same. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 01:38, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I have updated the article to reflect the new source. I agree, the fact that it's phrased as "more frequently using" in the PinkNews article and "now using they/them pronouns" in Vanity Fair indicates both a recent shift and a clear preference. ForsythiaJo (talk) 21:26, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I really don't think it's prudent at this point to make a sweeping change to this article to update its pronouns. I get that there's a new article from VF that says Bella now uses they/them pronouns, and that a PinkNews article from last week also says mostly uses they/them pronouns; however, these new sources don't suggest that they consulted Bella in any way on this statement. The last word we've heard from Bella (from an interview [1] [2]) is explicitly: "Being gendered isn’t something that I particularly like, but in terms of pronouns, I really couldn’t care less." I think it's unwise of us to make a big deal by changing these pronouns, when Bella herself isn't making a big deal of it (at least publicly, yet). I think it'd be better to hold off until she confirms this herself.

Moreover, in an interview with GQ, she opted for "she/her", while again saying she didn't really care either way.

(Seems this was also discussed before, at Talk:Bella Ramsey#Pronoun use above) PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:05, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I concur. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:50, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hyphenation Expert the edit notice you referred to was created just yesterday, and as a result of this very talk page thread. It can't be treated as the sole justification for reversion. Would you mind self-reverting and discussing the change here? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

The GQ article is from February 2023, and the NBC and NYTimes articles are from January 2023. A lot can change in a few months.

To add to the VanityFair and PinkNews articles there's also an article in Backstage published today, a NME article from 28 May, and a Teen Vogue article published 25 May, all of which exclusively use they/them throughout. With four high quality sources using they/them exclusively now, I think we're at the point where we should change. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Also for completeness, on the lower quality end of the reliable sources scale, there's also a BuzzFeed article published today, a GayTimes article from 28 May, and a US Magazine/US Weekly article published 25 May. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

With WP:BLPs, it's not always as simple as taking a sampling of reliable sources and using the language they do.

Primarily, the thing that caught my eye was the first sentence of the 'Personal Life' section reading: Ramsey identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns as of May 2023. That at least strikes me as odd to say in wikivoice, considering Bella's own words on the subject state an explicit lack of preference for pronouns. And I have not seen a source since which reports on any change to that preference.

Regarding the use of pronouns as a whole in the article, I think the most relevant guideline is MOS:GENDERID, which says: Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise. Bella's gender self-identification is clearly "non-binary." Bella's preference on pronouns has been "no preference." More RS using "they/them" does NOT mean that's what Bella prefers. It also does not mean this article should do the same, according to the guideline. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:42, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Respectfully, the Vanity Fair article said pretty explicitly The Last of Us breakout, who identifies as nonbinary and now uses they/them pronouns, which fulfils the reflect the person's most recent expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources part of GENDERID. That other RS have also changed to using them is also a strong indicator for change.

While it is true that in January/February, for the GQ article Ramsey expressed no preference, it seems as though for the more recent Vanity Fair article they have expressed a preference. As an editor who is very familiar with the intricacies of GENDERID (check my edit history for more info if you wish or happy to discuss on my user talk page), I am fully satisfied that the sources from the last week meet the threshold for changing the pronouns used in this article. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm still curious why we would take the word of Vanity Fair over the direct, reliably-sourced word of the BLP subject.

Although, are the two really in contradiction? Vanity Fair says Ramsey "now uses they/them pronouns" - stating that those pronouns weren't used before. They don't say Ramsey uses EXCLUSIVELY they/them pronouns. That is compatible with Ramsey's statement that she "uses any pronouns." PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:57, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we take the Vanity Fair article at face value? It's listed as generally reliable at RSP, which would put it on the same level of reliability as the GQ article from February. The only major difference, apart from the change in pronouns, is that Vanity Fair seem to be summarising it into their editorial voice, whereas GQ left it to a quotation from Ramsey. What exactly is your objection to the Vanity Fair source here? Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Even generally-reliable sources can get things wrong. For that reason, no source is above questioning simply by their reputation - the reliability of any source depends on the context in which it's being cited. If Vanity Fair is really saying Bella prefers they/them pronouns (which, reminder, they might not be saying that at all, as I said above), that is in apparent contradiction with what Bella has said regarding pronouns. That's enough to make me question that source in this context. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 21:08, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

(Catching up with discussion since I started typing my previous comment)

With respect, that logic feels like OR — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 21:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

That seems like a bit of a stretch to me, especially as there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that for gender and pronouns Vanity Fair is any less reliable than GQ. Do you have any evidence that Vanity Fair are unreliable, or less reliable, on this specific topic?

If Vanity Fair is really saying Bella prefers they/them pronouns (which, reminder, they might not be saying that at all, as I said above) The Vanity Fair article does say and now uses they/them pronouns (emphasis mine), which is pretty explicit that they (Ramsey) now use those pronouns instead of others. Above you've said these new sources don't suggest that they consulted Bella in any way on this statement, but that doesn't seem to the case. The Vanity Fair article is, in part at least, based on an interview with Ramsey and the article's author David Canfield. Are you really suggesting that Vanity Fair are enforcing their pronoun choice over Ramsey's? Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:23, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Backing up: why are you treating these things like zero-sum games? Vanity Fair doesn't have to be LESS reliable than GQ. Vanity Fair doesn't have to be choosing pronouns OVER Ramsey. It's always possible that different interpretations can co-exist, but you aren't giving off the vibe that you're even willing to consider things that way.

Look, there is clearly a mix of what pronouns are being used for Bella, both by herself and by RS. What we have is a direct quotation from Bella - "in terms of pronouns, I really couldn’t care less" - up against an editorialized description of what pronouns she uses. I'm still leaning toward preferring her own words, in deciding which pronouns to use in this article. And since this article and the sources it cites have previously been using she/her, I don't think this is a sweeping change we should be making. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 21:45, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Backing up: why are you treating these things like zero-sum games? Vanity Fair doesn't have to be LESS reliable than GQ. Because you said Even generally-reliable sources can get things wrong. For that reason, no source is above questioning simply by their reputation - the reliability of any source depends on the context in which it's being cited., which in the context of this discussion is pretty clearly questioning the reliability of Vanity Fair. My reply and question was in response to your questioning of the reliability of Vanity Fair.

The couldn't care less quotation is from the beginning of January, it is now the end of May. For any trans or non-binary person, a lot can change in 5 months with respect to how they wish to present themselves to the world and be referred to. Again I have to ask, why do you think the pronouns that Vanity Fair have stated are, to use your latest words, an editorialized description and not a fair and reasonable summary of something that Ramsey told the article's author during their interview? By saying this is an editorialised description, you are stating that this is something that is the opinion of Vanity Fair and/or the article's author, and not representative of what Ramsey discussed with the interviewer. That's a pretty strong accusation to make against a source. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

You yourself said the Vanity Fair perspecitve was written in "their editorial voice." PhotogenicScientist (talk) 22:11, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I said they summarised it into their editorial voice yes. I did not say they editorialised it. This is no different a practice than what we do to avoid our articles about people being nothing but a collection of quotations. Summarising into a publication's editorial voice and editorialising are two very different things. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:22, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 09:03, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Point taken - I simply meant "editorial description." PhotogenicScientist (talk) 13:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

That GQ interview was in February and the other references where they used she/they (rather than they/she or they/them) were in January.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that Ramsey's feelings about their gender are evolving and MOS:GENDERID says we should use the person's most recent expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources.

Per MOS:GENDERID (and @Sideswipe9th), we should be using they/them until and unless we see otherwise. If we're wrong, we can always change it again. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 21:10, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. In any case, we know for a fact that they/them is correct (even if it's not exclusive) so I'm not sure I understand the strong opposition to adopting it here. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 23:46, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

pinging editors from the previous discussion on pronouns @Levivich @ARoseWolf @Rreagan007 @QueerAsFolkPunk @IronGargoyle @Dfsghjkgfhdg: Does the new Vanity Fair article change anything, regarding the pronouns that should be used for Bella throughout this article? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 13:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Also tagging other editors who have talked about pronouns, mainly either making protected-edit requests or declining them according to to then-prevailing consensus: Anonymous emu, AquilaFasciata, Cannolis, Deepfriedokra, Exploding frogs, Gabonicman, Grachester — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 13:41, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not so concerned with what pronouns are reflective in the article. What I am concerned about is the process by which this was conducted and the removal of reliable sources which contradict the narrative being presented here or at least offer more insight into the transformation of Bella's position. @Sideswipe mentioned that Vanity Fair shouldn't be treated as less reliable than GQ. I absolutely agree but the latest edit made to the article removed the Toronto Star, UK Daily News and New York Times as reliable sources. Are those sources which attribute statements directly to Bella less reliable than a source with an editorial description in it that wasn't expressly attributed to Bella with quotations? Also, I highly regard the actual words of a subject when documented in reliable sources over an editorial description any way. That's not to say that the pronouns can't or shouldn't change, in fact, I stated above that the pronouns used does not matter so much to me. If consensus is to change it then change it. I am, however, concerned about the questioning of why editors on this page might be opposed to changes being made as if their opposition is inherently in bad faith rather than based on reasoned Wikipedia principles and guidelines on how changes to articles should be made. This is a tactic I see used a lot when someone passionately believes something should change but doesn't really feel they have a strong enough argument to make. I could ask the same question of those adamant about changing the pronouns. Why is it so important that Bella's pronouns change based on one specific article? One source with an editorial description indirectly attributed to Bella somehow supersedes three reliable sources directly quoting Bella because those other articles are five months older? --ARoseWolf 14:56, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Add to this that my position is probably more in line with @OwenBlacker above. I think the change has been made and it shouldn't be altered without further consensus. I would like to see the three reliable sources that @Hyphenation Expert removed re-added, even if attributed to the current pronouns to give readers more clarity of the transformation of Bella's position. --ARoseWolf 15:52, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

• Not to turn this into a meta-discussion about conduct on Wikipedia, but there's nothing inherently wrong with questioning why other editors are opposed to a change, and accusing the questioner of assuming bad faith and using the question as a "tactic" feels like bad faith in itself. In other words, WP:AAGF.
  To answer your question: it's not just one specific article, it's several; Vanity Fair is just among the most recent. I'm especially struck by this W interview from March, where Ramsey opts for they/them and says that they've only elected to use she/her in recent interviews "because it's easier". For me, the most recent articles from Vanity Fair and Backstage just confirm their pronoun preference. And, as I've said, they/them is factually correct (if not exclusive) so it seems like a logical usage to me. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 15:55, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

  The W interview is a great source, and one I hadn't seen before - thanks for sharing it. Based on that, I think the article using she/her or they/them everywhere could be left to editor consensus at this point. Bella herself says it best, I think: If you want to use ‘they’ you could.

  Though I'll note, that article is much more explicit in saying Bella still uses both sets: Ramsey is nonbinary, and uses “she” or “they.” My own opinion is still that this article should use she, as it has done. But as I said, I think consensus can form either way, and the article would be compliant with policy.

  I also share some of RoseWolf's issues they brought up regarding how this change was implemented, and I think it would behoove us not to remove reliable sources - especially ones that aren't very old, while implying they're definitely outdated. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

  To me, this article is the nail in the coffin. It makes clear that, absent of the inescapable cultural pressure coming from outside, they would default to they/them, and that using she/her is something they do to reduce friction. They're a young professional in a very public-facing occupation, attached to very high-profile media, and in a time where trans people are unrelentingly attacked in the media.

  Further, and maybe most importantly, all of this metaphorical ink that has been spilled in "discussing" the topic on this website has failed to meaningfully question that she/her was taken as the default when the actor themselves explicitly said they had no strong preference. Defaulting in that way is not value-neutral. By continuing to force the article to use she/her instead of the not only gender-neutral but significantly more value-neutral they/them, Wikipedia (and all of the involved editors) are contributing to the difficulties non-binary people face in society, including people like the subject of this article, who has now publicly mentioned in an interview that allowing others to use she/her for them is primarily for ease.

  Instead of continuing to flounder about whether or not a change is justified, ask yourselves if, given what is now known, would you believe they/them to be appropriate in writing the article from scratch, as if the article were just being made. The answer seems clear to me. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 19:38, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

  Very well put; thank you.

  I think it's also worth us remembering that we aren't restricted to a single sentence here. If we want to use the footnote to explain something like many publications used she/her for Ramsey in early 2023^[refs] but as the year progressed it appeared to become clearer that Ramsey prefers they/them^[refs], for example. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 20:00, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

  You're both reading your own biases into what Bella's said, and taking the pronoun thing way too far imo. Please step back a bit, and try to understand Bella's position without any of your own preconceived notions of gender, pronouns, etc.

  These are the best quotes we have from Bella, from interviews: 1) "Being gendered isn’t something that I particularly like, but in terms of pronouns, I really couldn’t care less.", and 2) "If you want to use ‘they’ you could... A lot of times recently I’ve been saying to use ‘she’ because it’s easier — but why not?" Taken together, I really am NOT getting the feeling from her that she cares one whiff what pronouns people use - she's not bothered by she/her, and she's ok with they/them. To that end, I feel like the last thing this article needs is more content focused exclusively on pronouns. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:20, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

  I basically agree with all of the above. Personally, I believe that the aforementioned "cultural pressure" likely does actually play a part—but I'm also aware that this is my own interpretation skewed by my biases (as opposed to explicit statements in sources), so I've tried not to let it influence my comments or edits. I also agree that, at least from their public comments, Ramsey isn't entirely bothered by pronoun usage—so, to that end, I don't think anybody is inherently incorrect in this discussion. But, taking everything into account, I personally believe that they/them is the most accurate for this article at this time. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 00:39, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

  I think that @PhotogenicScientist: sums up what I take away from this discussion. While it may be the case that the W article has a more direct quote, it appears that the author asked specifically "Should I use 'they' as your pronouns?" causing Ramsey to respond the way that she did.

  As for people claiming that "they/them" is more value neutral; I would suggest the idea that using "they/them" as a person's pronouns without someone explicitly stating that's what they prefer is less neutral than using pronouns that more closely align with how they tend to present themselves in keeping with WP:PLA.

  Additionally, (this is just personal preference) I think that most articles that consistently use "they" to refer to a single subject are consistently more difficult to read in a natural way. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 13:45, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

  Your personal, subjective interpretation of a stranger's gender expression does not make WP:PLA relevant in any way; they/them here is absolutely more value-neutral, and I frankly don't consider that up for argument. Also, your "personal preference" about singular they is, whether you intended it this way or not, a common tactic to deny non-binary people's identity. Regardless of how conscious you are of the matter, the things you're saying and behavior you're proposing others adhere to are just an indication of you being uncomfortable with non-binary identities (to varying degrees). I don't say that as a sleight to you; it's just what it is.

  We're not here to debate the appropriateness of singular they in general (there is no debate to be had), and I'm not entertaining any notion that defaulting to gendered pronouns for a non-binary person is somehow equally or more value-neutral than defaulting to they/them. Either point is absurd, and it's worth pointing out their absurdity. Dfsghjkgfhdg (talk) 00:24, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I absolutely agree but the latest edit made to the article removed the Toronto Star, UK Daily News and New York Times as reliable sources. Did it? While the major update to the article's pronouns did remove those from the {{efn}}, to me it seemed to be more because they were no longer relevant in the context of which pronouns Ramsey uses, having been superseded by a newer source rather than being unreliable. If there's other content in those articles that could be added to this article, say for example the support that Pedro Pascal has been giving to Ramsey while filming season 1 of The Last of Us, I don't think anyone would object to using those articles for that purpose wherever they support the text we're adding. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:21, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

It’s all exhausting and pointless. 2600:1017:A110:A491:F936:1583:BE10:766F (talk) 21:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

No, it is neither. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 22:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

And just to give this discussion some final clarity, the latest cover story from British Vogue:

"I had a lot of anxiety around pronouns. When The Last of Us first came out, I was like, 'Everyone just call me "she" because I look like a "she" to you, so it's fine.' But now I'm able to vocalise it more, being called 'they' is the most truthful thing for me. That's who I am the most."

Emphasis mine. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 14:42, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 January 2024

Ramsey is neurodivergent. 2001:8003:26A3:3700:B58C:3977:D251:8BC0 (talk) 01:15, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

 Added, with other refs. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 01:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 February 2024

With the advent of season 3 of Hilda, Ramsey has now voiced their character for 34 episodes, not the amount (26) that the article currently claims Insectoid316 (talk) 09:37, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 15:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 22:20, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Date and place of birth

In this edit, I asked for a reliable source for Ramsey's date and place of birth. The references did not mention these. In a new edi, Rhain (talk · contribs) provided a source for the place of birth (Leftlion), but also removed my 'citation needed'-additions; according to Rhain, the references suffice. The references are a post on Instagram by fellow actor Amybeth McNulty, who said 'Happy Birthday' on 25 September, and the mention of Ramsey's age, as stated in The Independent. The second one relies heavily on the first one, and I do not think one mention on Instagram suffices as a source. What to do? Of course I don't want an edit war. Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 13:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Ramsey has explicitly stated their birthday is in September, and their comments on McNulty's post seem to confirm the date is correct as well. Even without the Instagram post, we have several sources to confirm September 2003, at the very least. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 13:17, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. In which source did Ramsey state explicitly that their birthday is in September? Also, 'September' is not the same as '25 September 2003'. Instagram is not one of the 'reliable sources' on this list. Which 'several sources' confirm September 2003? I mean, just to be clear: I want to find a source to support the date. It might seem I just want to delete the date, but I don't; it's just not correct to mention the date as long as it is not sourced. (See WP:BLP.) Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 14:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Ramsey confirmed September here, and The Independent confirmed their age as 13 in Dec 2016; therefore, September 2003 is correct. Sources don't need to be listed at WP:RSP to be included; Instagram posts are usable here per WP:SOCIALMEDIA. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 21:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that makes sense. Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 07:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Laurier: Re: this edit—references are not necessary in the infobox per WP:INFOBOXCITE (or the lead per WP:LEADCITE). – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 07:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'll change it back. Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 08:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Laurier: Thanks! They're not necessary in the lead either, per WP:LEADCITE, as in this edit. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 08:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Moved them again. Sorry for all the inconvenience and thank you for your patience. Laurier (xe or they) (talk) 09:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

No need to apologise—thank you for your help and cooperation! – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 10:47, 5 April 2024 (UTC)