Talk:Berbers/Archive 5

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Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6

Should this picture of a Berber boy be deleted from this article?

A young Berber in typical clothes photographed near Zagora, Morocco

Ekarfi13 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) / 195.132.185.48 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) / 195.132.182.126 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) has for several weeks, been attempting to remove this picture. While he most typically removes the image without comment, the reasons he have given for its removal include:

Note that "diversifying the pictures" involves replacing this picture with a painting of a Moor, and the only way of solving the "too many photos" problem is, apparently, by removing this one picture, of the dozens in the article. I, by contrast, think Berbers should be represented in their full diversity, and that this picture adds far more to the article than pictures of sculptures of mythical beings like Medusa and Athena, or paintings of Moors of ambiguous ethnicity. Should this picture be removed from this article? Jayjg (talk) 03:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Are Berbers of Sub-Saharan origin currently overrepresented in the article? If they are than there is nothing wrong with "diversifying" pictures, but at least some should be left in place to illustrate the diversity of Berber population. -- Heptor talk 23:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
I've created a more complete gallery with 8 different images, including men and women, and added three new faces to the ethnobox at the top of the article. This should solve any issues of insufficient diversity, and also fixes the impossible formatting that plagued previous versions of this article, which typically had 3 to 5 random images stuffed at the top of each section. Jayjg (talk) 17:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

More arbitrary image deletions by Ekarfi13

Tuareg woman in Mali

Ekarfi13 has now started deleting the image on the right, and substituting a 93 year old false-color image of a different woman. The Algerian woman's picture is already found in the gallery of older images, which range from 93 years old to 130 years old, rather than the image of modern-day Berbers, since she's clearly not modern day. Can Ekarfi13 please explain this arbitrary deletion? Jayjg (talk) 11:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Ekarfi13, you've now removed the image twice, giving as your rationales:
Neither of these reasons for removing the picture appear to make any sense. How does it "diversify ethnic groups" when you remove photographs? Also, what does "Why it's a photograph though not a painting" even mean? Jayjg (talk) 23:29, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Ekarfi13, please discuss your reversions here. Jayjg (talk) 12:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Ekarfi13 has reverted again, with the edit comment Explain why putting no photo of a Berber of Algeria? This, of course, makes no sense, since no-one has removed the old photo of the Berber of Algeria, it's still in the article. Only Ekarfi13 is removing photos, but he won't explain exactly why - or rather, the explanations change regularly, and often make no sense. Jayjg (talk) 12:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Ekarfi13, you've now removed the picture with the edit comment I believe Algerian Berbers are underepresented !. Again, this comment makes no sense, as no-one has ever removed any pictures of Algerian Berbers, or objected to any being added. Please discuss your edits here, and explain your real reasons for your continual reverting! Jayjg (talk) 20:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
There is no reason to remove images from this article. If multiple articles are needed to show diversity, simply place them in appropriate places. This is not something that needs to be warred about.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, he's given up on those, but he's still deleting the images of dark-skinned Berbers in favor of light-skinned ones: [1] This agenda is sickeningly obvious. Jayjg (talk) 00:03, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The Algerian woman is not "old"...it's not a picture by the way but a photograph , made by a Frenchman during French colonization of Algeria. Why for you this girl is not a "modernday Berber"? Moreover I am not deleting "dark skinned Berbers" you have an agenda actually , I only post images of Berbers of various backgrounds (including diaspora like in the Netherlands) Ekarfi13 17:38 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Ekarfi13, here are the facts:
  1. You twice more deleted pictures of dark-skinned Berbers and replaced them with pictures of light-skinned Berbers, again with ridiculous and false edit summaries: Stop accusing people of something completely untrue. I only posted a photo of a Dutch politician. No reason for deleting the image of Ahmed Aboutaleb who is a famous politician of Berber stock.
  2. The picture of the Algerian woman was taken in 1917, 93 years ago. It's old. 1917 is not "modern day".
  3. No-one ever said the picture was not a photograph. It is a hand-painted photograph, as was common at the time.
  4. Contrary to your claim, you have in fact, been continually removing photographs, but only of dark-skinned Berbers, while adding only photographs of light-skinned Berbers. Today you even managed to find a photograph of a blonde Berber, and inserted it! How "representative" of Berbers are blondes? Not very, of course. Your other edits on this topic have been to downplay any connection of Berbers with sub-Saharan Africa. Your agenda is quite clear.
  5. If you again delete, or even move down, a single picture of a dark-skinned Berber, you're going to straight to the admin board for action.
I hope that's very clear. Jayjg (talk) 23:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
"I only post images of Berbers of various backgrounds"
You also have been removing images. It is detailed in your edit history, and ironically, you have an edit summary that claims you arent deleting images for an edit where you clearly deleted an image.
Perhaps, an easy solution, which hopefully will not expand that article box too much, would be to add one more row? That would allow three more pictures, which I think will satisfy restoring most or all of the pictures being deleted/swapped back and forth. With each revert/edit, one or more picture gets swapped for another set. My suggestion would alleviate that, if the particular pictures are really that important to everyone involved.
RobertMfromLI | User Talk 15:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Ekarfi13 has done it again; he's removed pictures of dark-skinned people and replaced them with pictures of lighter-skinned people.[2] I will repeat one last time: If you again delete, or even move down, a single picture of a dark-skinned Berber, you're going to straight to the admin board for action. Jayjg (talk) 19:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

You're somehow obssessed with skin color aren't you? the both men are actually light skinned , google image them and you'll see ther skin is even relatively lighter than the ones I put. I have 0 agenda , because that was me who put photos diversify the representative photos of Berbers. I remember when you or another user put only 2 photos on the article and both appeared to be black..what's that if not more than an agenda?! By the way I have no "agenda". I was only putting photos of various ethnicities. Even though I actually find your gallery useless , you won't find such galeries in other ethnic group articles. Mostly because physical appearance is not important (except for you apparentely). Ekarfi13 13:14 August 21 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.182.126 (talk)

First of all, login please User:Ekarfi13. You've had your IP blocked in the past for failing to do so. Second, you're the only one obsessed with dark-skinned, "African" Berbers - you're the only one who has protested their inclusion in the article, and continually removed their pictures under ever more ridiculous pretexts. Third, as explained, if you move any of the pictures you ethnically disapprove of down again, it will be off to AN/I for admin action against you. Take this seriously. Jayjg (talk) 00:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Euro-centric

This article is so euro-centric and blatantly biased it is ridiculous. The overemphasis on Y-chromosome DNA evidence and other useless minutia within the article practically screams "Hey look at these WHITE people. You see they are WHITE, right? Did I mention they were WHITE?" It's completely unnecessary and very amateur. The standards of these Wikipedia articles should be much higher. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.143.59 (talk) 04:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, particularly regarding the genetics section. I know its backed by source content, but its entire tone seems insistent on showing how "white" Berbers are, even though most people around the world, including Berbers themselves, don't see themselves as much. I'm not trying to take anything away from Berbers, but quotes like "minor but significant Sub-Saharan African component" (seriously, "minor but significant"? What does that even mean? Their admixture is either significant or minor, it shouldn't be both), or the continued repeating of how "Predominately Eurasian" Berbers are even though they are also supposed to be an indigenous African people at the same time takes away from the article a bit.

AlecTrevelyan402 (talk) 13:40, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not afraid to name names here; User:Ekarfi13, and his many IPs, have essentially edited this article solely for that purpose, to prove how "white" Berbers are. He spent three months deleting any pictures of Berbers who looked too dark or "African" to him, while inserting pictures of "white" or "European"-looking Berbers. He even managed to source and insert a picture of a blonde Berber! Jayjg (talk) 18:47, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Amazigh2011, 15 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change "almost universally" to "by the vast majority of"

Source: Personal research and 26 years experience. I am a professor of North African History, Politics and Culture, and I teach segments of my courses Berber populations, history, politics, and cultural production. I have met with Berber-speakers in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Mauritania, and Senegal, and have met native Berber speakers from the remaining countries, and who live all over North America and Europe (in at least 10 countries there I have visited), and while it is true that the vast majority of Berber-speakers speak Arabic for religous, cultural and historic reasons, many don't, particularly older people and children, but also some adults and teenagers in isolate areas. I have even translated for non-Arabic speakers in various situations through my career. "almost universally" is not far from the truth, but is clearly an overstatement and more the case in certain countries (like Libya and parts of Morocco), than other places (like in more remote parts of Morocco, Algeria or France where a berber might speak french more than Arabic, and more importantly among segments of the populations more removed from the state, the education systems, and from contact with Arabic speakers. Many times in many places I have sat in rooms full of people who did speak Arabic, and I have interviewed many thousands of Berber speakers over the years in a variety of languages.)

Please delete "along with Darija." Darija is an undisputed dialect of Arabic.

Source: Wikipedia itself, clicking on the link to Darija. While I am big fan of darija and certified translator of it, and know its variation from MSA and other Arabid dialects, it is a dialect of Arabic as much as Iraqi, or the Shemi dialects or Hassaniya, or anything else.

Please change "Today most Berber-speaking people live in Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Mali and Niger.[1][2]" to "Today non-immigrant Berber-speaking people live in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Mauritania, Mali, Niger, and Burkina Faso."

Source: This page further down the page, and may other wikipedia pages on Berbers. Your sentence is misleading, because, for example, there are roughly as many (or more) Berber speakers in Tunisia as Libya, and only a few less in Egypt. Why put in Libya, and not Tunisia, or Egypt? There are native speakers in northwestern Mauritania and some eastern parts, the latter from the same groups that circulate in Mali, Niger, and Burkina Faso. Why list some Twareg concentrations, and not others. (Touareg activity in othes Sahelian and sub-Saharan countries is ignficant.) The only thing I am not 100% sure about is whether there are indigenous Berbers in the Canary islands. I suspect that the native language of the Canary islands is a Berber or part-Berber dialiect. If true, then those Spanish citizens from the Canary islands that speak that language speak Berber, and should be listed as the 10th country in this list.

Please add to the "Regions with Significant populations" on the page on the right hand side, which includes Mauritania, Tunisia and Egypt already (supporting the information above, "Burkina Faso."

Source: Wikipedia --this page further down the page under modern day berbers--and other online information about where nomadic, semi-nomadic, and other Touaregs live. And discussions with Berber speakers from each of these countries over a 26-year career.

Please change "The modern English term, Berber, is probably borrowed from Italian or Arabic," to "The modern English term, Berber, is borrowed from Italian and Arabic, and derived from the Latin term used by the Romans for "barbarian",....

Source: The wikipedia "Berber" etymology link. It is undisputed that the Romans called the Berbers "barbar"--barbarian, but what is unknown, is whether this comes from any of a variety historical moments, including when the Vandals had occupied eastern Algeria and western Tunisia and were fighting (presumably with Berber speakers) against the Romans, or from many other various theories on where the deeper etymology lies. Its all covered on your Wikipedia etymology page.

Please add at the end of the first paragraph, "Whether or not they speak Berber, most people in North Africa have patrilineal and matrileanal Berber ancestry."

Source: Undisputed and referenced on this page under "Modern Day Berbrs." The numbers of Arabs and Turks and other groups that settled in North Africa were never signficant. Virtually all North Africans west of the Nile Valley have Berber heritage (ancestors, culturally), but this is poorly understood in the west (for historical and political reasons) and even poorly understood by most people; but all academics and educated North Afrians know and acknowledge this. Part of the confusion comes from patrileanal descendenc (if my grandfather 10 generations back was a Turk (and all my other ancesters aren't but are North African--99%), I'm a Turk, and not an Arab or a Berber). Descendence from the Prophet Mohamed is also determined in this patrilineal sense.

Please change: "Berbers represent the major ethnic origin in North Africa, although up to perhaps a certain extent interbred with other elements (Arab, Subsaharian, Iberian , Punic...), but only about half of the Moroccan population and a third of the Algerian can be identified nowadays as Berber" to "Berbers represent the major ethnic origin in North Africa, although almost entirely interbred with other signficantly less represented elments (Arab, subsaharan, Turk, Iberian, Punic...), but only about a third of the Moroccan population and a quarter of the Algerian can be identified nowadays as Berber"

Source: Many wikipedia pages linked here and common knowledge. No expert anywhere can claim half of Morocco and a third of Algeria speak Berber--anyone who has travelled in these countries knows it since the majority urban and rural clearly do not speak Berber even when their parents or a parent, or their grandparents do or did. But optimistic estimates put this at a third and a quarter respectively, and with education in Berber for the new generation, this may recover.

Please replace "and the Shilha or Chleuh (French, from Arabic Shalh and Shilha ašəlḥi) of south Morocco" with "and the Shleuh or Chleuh (Arabic and French, from Tamazight ašəlḥi) of central and southern Morocco"

Source: Decades of travel throughout these regions and various Wikipedia pages. "Shleuh" in Arabic (and french derived to Chleuh) is used for the south and parts of central Morocco. "Shilha" in Arabic refers to the language, or less commonly to a Berber speaking woman. ašəlḥi is the term in Tamazight (or Berber).

Please "Shilha" to "Shleuh" under Ethnic groups as well for same reasons.

The genetic information in this article also supports what I said above.

I'll stop there. I also have some problems with some of the photographs and how the genetic section is written with a eurocentric slant, but I do not have the data in front of me right now to offer you alternative language. There are also various mispellings and alternate spellings for things on this page which could improve and enrichen it.

That said, it is an excellent page. Most of what I am doing here is making the page slightly more accurate and more importantly better written and consistent with itself. Amazigh2011 (talk) 17:46, 15 January 2011 (UTC) Sources referenced above.

Not done: Sorry, but the sources you mention do not meet Wikipedia's policy of Verifiability. You cannot use your own personal experience as a reference for an article (see "No original research"), and you also cannot use Wikipedia itself as a reference (see "WP:CIRCULAR"). Please take a minute to look through the links I left on your talk page to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies and practices. --Darkwind (talk) 20:20, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Named Berbers may be BLP offenses

At the risk of opening up something I cannot finish, what is the basis for claiming, for example (and in the lede) that Zinedine Zidane (born in France of Algerian parents), and Ibrahim Afellay (born in Holland of Moroccan descent) are Berbers? There is no cite, and there is nothing in either article to back this claim. Unless there is evidence that these men self-identify as Berber, I suggest that the names and photos be removed. Bielle (talk) 03:46, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

The vast majority of photographs in this article should be removed, but it has been remarkably hard to do so in the past. Jayjg (talk) 04:11, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
If there are the usual verifiable, reliable sources for calling these people "Berbers" then, of course, the names and photos should stay. I did a quick check, but could find nothing. If we can find a source, well and good. If not, then they should go. I'll start with a cite request for the names in the lede. What is the basis, I wonder, on including them in the first place? Bielle (talk) 04:28, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I only just noticed that the article is protected. What ought we to do next? Bielle (talk) 04:34, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Coins as pictures?

Can User:Rarevogel/84.83.145.241 (talk · contribs) explain why he wants to use pictures of coins, as opposed to pictures of actual people, in the infobox? Jayjg (talk) 00:25, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Again, can you explain why you are using these odd, unclear files:

Each image has serious issues, and is inappropriate for an infobox, which should try to restrict itself to clear photographs of well-rendered heads, or at least upper-torsos. Jayjg (talk) 21:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Clearly not appropriate for infobox. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Rarevogel, there's no objection to including these in the body of the article, but they clearly don't belong in the infobox, which is mostly for clear faces or upper torsos. Could you please express yourself here on the Talk: page? Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 00:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Rarevogel, could you please express your views on the images here, rather than simply reverting. In addition to the objections raised earlier, most of the images you are adding to the infobox are already in the article in other, more logical places where the subjects are discussed. Please don't duplicate them. Jayjg (talk) 00:50, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I have reverted yet another attempt to add a poor quality image to the infobox, as it contains one image completely rejected above and others that are completely distorted. There is no consensus for the use of this image. O Fenian (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Infobox pictures again

Omar-Toons (talk · contribs) has removed a couple of pictures from the infobox, on the grounds that they are not that well known. I am fine with removing one of them, as he's just a young soccer-player and not that famous. But the other is Massinissa Guermah - his arrest and killing triggered the Black Spring (Kabylie), which resulted in over 100 deaths and over 5,000 casualties, not to mention arrests, tortures, etc. On what grounds could one claim that this person is "not-so-famous"? Jayjg (talk) 21:55, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Omar-Toons, I'm going to assume, based on your lack of response here, that you now agree with my reasoning, and that there's consensus to restore these images. Please let me know if you disagree. Jayjg (talk) 01:27, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
O.K., since you haven't objected, I've restored the picture of Massinissa Guermah, replacing the picture of Driss Jettou, as another editor claimed that Jettou wasn't actually Berber. Jayjg (talk) 03:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

whos this guermah!!!! you put a guy who havent even the choice to live or to die, as a symbol of our race! unbelievable! i put a new image in the infobox which resume some of the most brilliant imazigen of history! you should help me make it look better cause some guys don't wont it as it is! thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talkcontribs) 15:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

You will need consensus for the addition of every single person that appears on the image, which is unlikely given the poor quality of some of the images. O Fenian (talk) 15:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
consensus from who?!! and how it woks!?im a new wikiguy, so i'm not used to those policies. help strongly required! thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talkcontribs) 16:48, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Consensus here. Are the distorted images you're trying to add even Berber? Jayjg (talk) 22:51, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Seriously!!! of course they are! if you have doubts about any one, tell us about.Omar2788 (talk) 23:50, 27 May 2011 (UTC)


────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Omar (not the same Omar as above, are you?), the picture you are repeatedly trying to insert is not representative of Berber people. It's representative of the same few people - note in each row, the same person repeated at either different ages or in different styles/photos. Additionally, unlike all the hard work that went into the previous set of pictures, which were sourced in a way to ensure they were representative of Berbers, you have yet to provide ANY sort of cites to show that the 2-4 people in your proposed picture are actually representative of Berber people. So, thank you for finally discussing it before re-reverting again, but on that note:

  • Oppose - not citable as Berber people. Not representative (since it's actually a very few people repeated over and over). ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:11, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose I am not sufficiently knowledgeable about Berber people, so my objections are on different grounds. Firstly many of the images are distorted. It is clear that they have been either stretched or squashed to make them a particular size. Pictures of statues or other pieces of art (good quality paintings excepted, I am talking more about the tapestry and poor quality drawings) are no use either. Any collage should also be more representative of Berber people throughout history, the most recent person on the proposed collage died almost 50 years ago. Using a single image always caused problems when changes need to be made also, it is much simpler to use individual images. O Fenian (talk) 15:09, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The individuals are repeated, the pictures are distorted and often poor quality, and many of the individuals themselves are probably not Berber. For example, the first, Ramses II, is claimed to be Berber based on this highly unreliable source: www.white-history.com/earlson/rameses.htm, a website devoted to the "history of the White Race". Jayjg (talk) 02:21, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Agree all of these people are taken from this wiki page List of Berber people, references and notes, of them being of Berber Race are available on that page. besides, they perfectly represent this race across the centuries. and no one is repeated as said by some!! if you want some berber people from the 21st century i can add another row, no problem. So please VOTE YEs we CAN!!! And if you don't like the quality i can do better and upload new versions of it once accepted. thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talkcontribs) 14:59, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

precision, this is the complete list of people on the pic so you can verify:
Same order:
Ramesses IIMassinissaJuba I
TertullianMarcus ManiliusSeptimius Severus
AriusArnobiusCyprian
Augustine of HippoTerenceApuleius
Ibn ManzurTariq ibn ZiyadAveroes
Ibn al-JazzarAkselIbn Battuta
al KhatabiBen BadissAbd el-Kader Omar2788 (talk) 15:58, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Please propose individuals one at a time, including links to reliable sources stating they are Berber, and links to the photograph you propose to use. Please also read the comments above; for example, the claim that Ramesses II was Berber is highly dubious. Jayjg (talk) 18:06, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
(to Omar):
  • First, it does NOT matter what's on that page. The previous images here are representative of Berber people - while that page is representative of certain famous Berber people. Wrong direction to take this article, as it is not the one about famous Berber people (the other one is).
  • Second, you cannot glom together images like that without first ascertaining the proper copyright status of the final image. What are the copyrights on the images you used? Is the combined image properly licensed and attributed? For EACH image in it? My vote is still oppose. As is previous consensus when someone tried exactly this same thing not too long ago.
  • Finally, unless you could clear up #2, our "votes" dont matter. We cant, shouldnt and wont use the image. That is not debatable. Now, I can clear it up if I find the time, but I can assure you, if I find copyright licensing violations, I'm just going to request a speedy deletion. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:43, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Multiple previous versions of it were deleted. The latest version removed the offending images that caused it to be deleted previously, but that should not be taken to mean all the current images are fine in terms of copyright. O Fenian (talk) 19:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
ok! first Ramsesse II WAS a berber the proof given in the article i've given is that he was a red haired! and only berbers got red haired people in north africa and middle east. never mind i'll put another pharaoh Sheshonk I (libyan means Berber for the greeks and the egyptians at the time), i propose that picture its under creative common licence. this is for the Ramssesse case. Massinissa[3] is known to be the unifier of eastern and western Numidia 300BC. i propose the same image as above in better resolution, its under public domain license. For Juba I, same photo in better resolution. w'll see for others next time! see ya

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talkcontribs)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── My votes on these:

  • Picture 1: No - My Rationale: Not representative of a Berber person. It is a statue, which isn't even of a person.
  • Picture 2: No - My Rationale: Not representative of a Berber person. It is a statue of an artist's representation that does not accurately portray characteristics required to make it relevant to the article.
  • Picture 2: No - My Rationale: Not representative of a Berber person. It is a statue of an artist's representation that does not accurately portray characteristics required to make it relevant to the article.

You also are providing a lot of original research for your reasoning (such as "gee, red hair... Berber" and "libyan means Berber") - as that is not permitted as reasoning or grounds for inclusion, I am entirely ignoring and discounting those statements, and the points they are in defense of, as anyone who understands Wikipedia policies also must do. It's nothing personal - it's simply part of the community guidelines and policies. And finally, You still have yet to address the copyright issues for all the pictures in the composite. You must list the copyright status and claims to legality of use for each picture - if you do not, the picture will not be permitted in the article, and may end up being summarily deleted upon more detailed review. Additionally, once again, this article is about Berber people, as it's name implies. It is not about Berber statues. Nor is it about celebrities who were/are Berbers. Nor is the infobox an appropriate place for "artwork of/by Berber people" as that is not the article subject. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 00:16, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

you should read what i wrote before responding! actually iv given the license of each image and you can click on it for more details. your weird policies doesnt exist but in this article. you are exaggerating things. this article is about berber. ok! those are berbers. i can change the sphinx, but other statues are just great."this artcle isnt about berber statues!!!" seriously! those guys lived 3000 to 2300 years ago! what do you expect! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talkcontribs)
First, remember to sign your posts using ~~~~. Second, I apologize you do not understand WP:RELEVANT. Third, you did not cite the copyrights for each image in the conglomeration you created. Fourth, because you haven't properly sourced/cited them or properly listed the applicable copyright statuses, the image will probably be deleted soon anyway (in 6 more days). Fifth, no matter how many times you beat this dead horse, consensus is against using this image. You repeating the same argument you and... your predecessor (or you?) have over and over again hasn't changed consensus, as you've seen. Thus finally, I am not sure where you think this conversation is going to go; (1) consensus is against using the image, (2) the image will probably be deleted in 6 days anyway, (3) they are (for the most part) representative of statues, regardless of your opinion. Most of the images are not people - they are statues of people. Few are representative of real life, recent Berber people.
So, if you can come up with a different reason, we're all ears (or at least, I am) - but again, I think it a moot point when the image (in all probability) gets deleted in a few days. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 04:25, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
to get some results i'm going to give a list of people with pictures already uploaded at least a week ago on wikipedia, and w'll try then to select the "most representative" as you try to say note first:
* that busts are used in other articles of the same type, see here for example: Greeks, Persian people.
* lets agree that Moors, Berbers, Libyans, Amazigh, are designations for the some people. Omar2788 (talk) 11:34, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Other articles dont matter as rationale to use something. And you will just be creating the same type image you've created multiple times. Everyone else keeps saying no. How many times do you need to hear that? ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:26, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

ok

those images must be ok for every one since they already exist on the very actual version of the article:

NOW ONE AT A TIME, who agrees, put the montion agree with signature, who oppose, same thing plus reasons of that opposition. THANKS for participating!!

this averroes pic is in public domain and got a good resolution:

Kusaila

Berber king, resisted arabs 7th century

Aksil.jpg

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talkcontribs) 22:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Terrible picture. The pictures in the infobox are very small, so we're looking for clear pictures of faces here. Jayjg (talk) 03:09, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

File:Berbers2788.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Consensus Forming

Averroes

averroes reference to his berber heritage HERE
  • Agree: Omar2788 (talk) 12:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose - earlier images more accurately portray needs of article, as has been discussed before. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:56, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
i already selected 4 people from the precedent pic as you can see just above, averroes is the fifth on the list, i only want to complete your so beloved early pics Omar2788 (talk) 23:17, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
First, thanks for remembering to sign your post. Second, please see my vote directly above your entry. Diversity (as decided numerous times as the goal) is better served with the current images. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. You snuck in Augustine of Hippo, who is not in the infobox, in part because his ancestry was a mix of Berber, Latin, and Phoenician. Also oppose Averroes, as very few reliable sources indicate he was Berber; you've found pretty much the only one. Jayjg (talk) 02:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
so for you a berber is a direct descendant of the mr.berber!! augustine was berber by his mom monica and by his father who was of roman culture, romanized-berber as they were called.
for averroes case; books are rarely free. finding a free page that gives the info is already a great deal! you should reread the reference! its refering to an Umberto Eco article. this guy is a specialist in the middle age history.
besides if you can give any other source saying that averroes was of any other race, w'll get through this to the second preposition.
lets not pass an eternity here.Omar2788 (talk) 09:49, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Conclusion: seems everybody is ok with this pic, since no counter arguments were pronounced--Omar2788 (talk) 11:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
    • What are you talking about? No-one is ok with this pic, and all have presented counter-arguments. Jayjg (talk) 22:45, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
i thought you were convinced about the Umberto Eco article stuff, aren't you??--Omar2788 (talk) 12:45, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
No of course not. Provide reliable sources here. Jayjg (talk) 01:56, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Tariq ibn Ziyad

Tariq, origins HERE
  • Oppose: Insufficient citations to indicate Berber heritage. Also, article claims different heritage in lead. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:17, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Unclear if he was Berber, and not a good picture. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
the english wiki doesnt have this article (french) [4], witch confirm with reliable sources that ulhasa tribes are a branch of nefzaouat, those are of berber origins, all this according to Ibn Khaldoun (berber history specialist).
the picture is great you actually can see the nose of the guy when zooming.--Omar2788 (talk) 11:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Jayjg (talk) 22:46, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
there is about a hundred sources witch say the same, just write "tariq ibn ziyad berber" in google books, !!? here is the link:[5]--Omar2788 (talk) 19:07, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Did you miss the "not a good picture" part? Start there. Find a good picture of his face, then we'll talk about whether or not he's a Berber. Jayjg (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Crop it then upload it on commons with the mention "extracted from.." i wd do it, if i was not blocked --Omar2788 (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Arius

File:Arius.jpg
Arius origins HERE its a web site dedicated to the Arian Church
  • Agree: Omar2788 (talk) 12:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Insufficient citations to indicate Berber heritage. Also, article implie different heritage. The fact that someone added Arius to the "Berber" category without any citations is not enough to add them to this page. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Unclear if he is a Berber. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
this is another reference from catholic encyclopedia [6] rubric History second paragraph it says "a libyan by descent" --Omar2788 (talk) 11:45, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
The Catholic encyclopedia isn't reliable, and it doesn't say Berber anyway. Jayjg (talk) 22:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
it says libyan! its the same thing, i refer you to that article Ancient_Libya, it says in the second paragraph of the introduction: In the Greek period the Berbers were known as Libyans, now it should be ok --Omar2788 (talk) 12:52, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
It isn't the same thing. This debate has went on before. It's kinda like say "It says European, so they must be Spanish!" It must unambiguously indicate they are Berber. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
not the same thing at all! its most like i say iberian so it must be actual spanish --Omar2788 (talk) 00:18, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Please re-read my comment. The Catholic encyclopedia isn't reliable, and it doesn't say Berber anyway. Jayjg (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
catholic ency. is not reliable!!! i would have said the same, if we were talking about lady gaga or some one else!! but its about a catholic icon, so i think they know who the guy is! again a link to a lot of google books that say the same [7]!
and if you can't provide any proof about him being of any other race, so w'll say he's a berber, since the only sources talking about his origins say he's berber --Omar2788 (talk) 17:47, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────It does not work that way. Though other editors are welcome (time and interest permitting) to help you, if you want to include it, then you must cite proper sources. We don't just assume, nor do we randomly decide what sources are considered reliable based on our desires to include information - there's actually policies on that.

  • That brings me to another question... why are the images in the infobox not at the original selections from before you started changing them? I'm hoping when I check back later, that the images previously agreed upon are back in place until this discussion has ended. I'll let you take care of that. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Apuleius

Apuleius

quoting the main article : The best known of the ancient Berbers were the Numidian king Masinissa, the Roman author Apuleius, Saint Augustine of Hippo, and the Roman general Lusius Quietus, who was instrumental in defeating the major Jewish revolt of 115–117. Famous Berbers of the Middle Ages included Tariq ibn Ziyad, a general who conquered Hispania; Abbas Ibn Firnas, a prolific inventor and early pioneer in aviation...

  • Agree: Omar2788 (talk) 12:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose (for now): Picture of unsuitable quality to portray features accurately. Is there a better picture that's free to use? ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:23, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Poor quality picture. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Massinissa

Numidian king

this is the best i can find
if any one has another please post it here

when agreeing please indicate the picture we should use (#1 on the left)

  • Agree: #4 is nice Omar2788 (talk) 12:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Agree:This is one of the most important historical figures Berber --Waran18 (talk) 18:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: No citations provided to indicate Berber heritage. Secondly, I'd pick the one on the right if I were to choose one. And finally, it shows the best faith when you do not tell other editors what they should pick - next time, I'd write something like "I prefer the one on the right as my first choice... if you agree with using this person, which do you prefer?" ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:27, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I didn't impose any pic i said "please indicate the picture we should use". secondly Massinissa was a Numidian king. So, automatically, it implies he was Berber, since Numidia is Berbers kingdom, in opposition to Carthage the Punic kingdom. --Omar2788 (talk) 13:37, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. All pictures are poor quality, and one on right will likely be deleted soon for copyright violations, as were your many previous uploads. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
i then suggest the bust, it has a good quality --Omar2788 (talk) 13:40, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
No, like I said, all pictures are poor quality. Jayjg (talk) 22:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Yusuf ibn Tashfin

File:Yussuf ibn Tashfin.jpg
Yusuf ibn Tashfin, founder of the berber dynasty Almoravid reference here
  • Agree: Omar2788 (talk) 12:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Picture has no provenance, could be anyone, and in any event is another copyright violation uploaded by you. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Modern time women artists

  • Agree for both: Omar2788 (talk) 12:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Insufficient citations to indicate Berber heritage. Also, that one speaks in such language does not indicate heritage. I "speak" in REXX, C++, Perl and Javascript, but I am not a computer. Just as someone who speaks Spanish is not necessarily Spanish. Find citations. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Question. What reliable evidence do we have that they're Berber? If you can bring reliable sources describing them as Berber, then I will support. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
    • Any reliable sources yet? The second image is much better, by the way, the first is a torso, so the face is too small. Jayjg (talk) 04:15, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
take a look on here official webpage:http://www.hindi-zahra.com/en/biographie.php --Omar2788 (talk) 20:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
How do you know it's her "official webpage"? It could just be a fansite. Jayjg (talk) 03:27, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
You ask a lot, just go to the home page and you'll be fixed.--Omar2788 (talk) 14:56, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I already went to the home page, and couldn't see anything there indicating it was something "official" run by her. That's why I asked. Jayjg (talk) 15:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Muhammad Ibn 'Abd al-Karim al-Khattabi

another freedom fighter from northeast morroco (the Rif)

Horacio Echevarrieta and Abd el-Krim to the right
  • Agree: Omar2788 (talk) 13:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose: "became the leader of... in... a Berber area" does not indicate that he is Berber. And again, neither does the fact that someone simply added him to the category. Article does not state he is Berber, and thus there are no cites for such content, since such content doesn't exist. Find citations. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It's a terrible, tiny picture, you can't even see his face. If you had a good picture, I would support. Jayjg (talk) 02:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talkcontribs) 14:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
That new picture is just a new copyright violation you've uploaded. Jayjg (talk) 22:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
yep i'm a great rapist! they banished me for a week :( --Omar2788 (talk) 12:41, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
For continually uploading copyright violations. You must have had 30 images deleted from there already, when will you stop doing that? Jayjg (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
nevertheless i added good pictures also, which have been accepted --Omar2788 (talk) 22:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Notes

Omar, I don't think we've discussed what images to remove - you're being a bit hasty, so I'd appreciate it if you revert your changes until we actually conclude the discussion. Thanks, Rob ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:58, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I've restored them. Omar, don't remove them again without consensus. Jayjg (talk) 23:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
ferhat mnehi is not famous at all, i would suggest Matoub Lounes or djamel Sabri to replace him. they are two poets who melitate for the berber heritage.
also that guy from holland is no thing, no one knows him even in holland i bet! as a politic i would suggest Houari Boumediene or Lyamin Zeroual, who both were presidents of Algeria --Omar2788 (talk) 12:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Who cares if they are famous? Famous does not make Berber. Berber makes Berber, and as mentioned above, this article isn't about famous Berber people, and should be balanced in it's portrayal of commoner to king. At least, that's my opinion (since that's what the article seems to be about). ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 20:16, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, I would be fine with sticking to more famous Berbers if we had lots of good pictures to choose from. Given that we have only 8, and one of them is a drawing, we need them all. Jayjg (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I like the idea of having famous people in it, but the article used to have "common folk" who were garbed (and looked) quote different than more famous people. Various of which seemed to dress in more "traditional" garb - yet of course were recent pictures. That's why I'm hoping for a balance, that way we portray all ends of the spectrum. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Consensus here

  • Agree: for Matoub and Boumediene to replace mnehi and the dutch one.--Omar2788 (talk) 12:39, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Conclusion:since no opposition i'm changing those--Omar2788 (talk) 00:19, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
ONCE AGAIN, YOU WERE TOLD DO NOT SIMPLY DO WHAT YOU WANT WHILE PRETENDING TO WORK TOWARDS A CONSENSUS. Revert your changes, or you will be reported on ANI. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
No, absolutely not. We've already told you above not to do that. Next time wait at least 3 days, don't play games, or you will be blocked. Jayjg (talk) 02:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and the first picture is bad quality, and the second is fair use, so cannot be used in this article. Jayjg (talk) 04:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
the first one is not the best but its good! since the guy is very important for modern berbers, i think it should be accepted !--Omar2788 (talk) 20:18, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
It's a very bad picture. Does anyone else think it should be included? Jayjg (talk) 22:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Last row

we need four ancients guys to put in the first row. any suggestions here --Omar2788 (talk) 00:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Why do we need four ancient guys in the first row? Jayjg (talk) 02:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I suspect the idea (which is something I may have implied earlier) is to have (starting top left) ancient -> recent (bottom right) people. I can't say I think it's a bad idea if suitable images are selected, though I'm definitely open for other ideas. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 02:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
The order (oldest to newest) makes sense, although it's tough to do with modern pictures. It doesn't explain why we need four ancient ones. Jayjg (talk) 03:03, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
Ah yes... forgot to comment on the quantity. Agreed... maybe 2 or so would do? ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:26, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I guess. Until we get 17 good pictures, we don't need to make any choices anyway. Jayjg (talk) 03:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

He did it again

Omar2788, you again removed a picture from the infobox and added a different one without consensus. Do you really want to be sanctioned or banned? Propose here, and get consensus. Keep in mind that until we have over 16 images, NONE will be removed from the infobox. Do you understand that? Jayjg (talk) 03:10, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

And now he's done it using his sockpuppet Dzlinker.[8] There is still no consensus for this, regardless of which account you use, and you're headed straight back to AN/I if you continue. Jayjg (talk) 01:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

What do you agree on?

Hi, I'm trying to follow this but i can't see what everybody agrees on? Can anyone say what pictures does he want to be there, so we wan sort out consensus?
For my part, the pictures in the infobox do not properly represent all Berber people:

  • Abdel Kadir: Not clear that he really is berber
  • Ahmed Abou taleb: why not, his notability can be debated
  • Mustapha benboulaid: Not notable enough
  • Ibn Battuta: agree
  • Massinissa Guermah: Not notable enough (maybe notable for The Kabilye region in recent history, but then there are others)
  • Idir: Agree (Better picture can be found)
  • Kateb Yacine: Why not
  • Zidane: Agree

I suggest that we broaden the groups that are represented, we need some Tuaregs and some Chleuhs. My suggestions are:

  • Ibrahim ag Alhabib: Founder of the Tuareg Music group Tinariwen
  • Abdel Krim Khattabi: There is a good pic of him when he was featured in the time Magazine in 1925 (copyright expired in the U.S).
  • Mohamed Rouicha: Moroccan Folk singer

--Tachfin (talk) 11:23, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

hi
  1. Abdel kader wrote that he was a descendent of the Beni Ifren the Berbers
  2. Aboutaleb is really not representative i replaced him before by Averroes
  3. Benboulaid is a symbol of the Freedom fight
about others i agree with you
about what you suggest i totally agree about Abdelkrim Khatabi (mosaic below), and i can't find any picture of the two others
i added another row before that've been reverted by someone
it looked a bit like this
Omar Mukhtar 13.jpgJuba i.jpgPSM V25 D300 Averroes.jpgAugustinus 1.jpg
Tarik ibn Ziyad -.jpgx75pxAbd al-Qadir.jpgBenboulaid.JPG
x68pxIdir Hamid Cheriet.JPGKaddour M'Hamsadji avec Kateb Yacine Crop.jpgZinedine Zidane 2008.jpg
Dzlinker (talk) 16:05, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Oppose the whole block:the adding of these people was already discussed before and no one but Dzlinker/Omar2788 agreed.
On the other hand, Omar2788/Dzlinker was asked before to get consensus for each picture/person, not to discuss that as a block.
Omar-Toons (talk) 17:53, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
So pretty much every proposition has been opposed, what are your suggestions? I'm out of ideas.
Dzlinker, There are some images for the Tinariwen front man, i've found some on flickr CC. (1 or 2). For Abdelkrim we can use this (he Looks very young, i'm sure the pic was taken before 1910) or this time magazine 1925 Tachfin (talk) 20:24, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
ok here it is x50pxTarik ibn Ziyad -.jpgPSM V25 D300 Averroes.jpgAugustinus 1.jpg those pics haven't been proposed before. any opposition?? -- Dzlinker (talk) 22:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Of course we oppose, because we don't know who they are, or why you think they are Berber. Name them one at a time, and provide the reliable sources that indicate they are Berber. And please stop uploading copyright violations. Jayjg (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
this is totally not cooperative. you're trying to make things harder for us, while you don't make the minimal effort. just get to the wiki pages of the concerned guys, and u'll be fixed. or should i paste links for you, (i already did. take a look above) Dzlinker (talk) 16:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
What is "totally not cooperative" is refusing to simply provide a decent image and a source indicating the individual in the image is Berber. It should be very simple, so there's no excuse for not doing so. Jayjg (talk) 00:14, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Use this table

I made this table, you're free to add/complete/vote, just try not to delete rows. This should help us move forward Tachfin (talk) 19:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? Almost none of them have sources, many have no picture, and some of them don't even have articles! No, we'll proceed one image at a time, as before, providing a picture, and providing sources that the individual is Berber. There's no crisis or emergency here, the infobox already has eight images in it. Jayjg (talk) 00:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
No, nobody said there's an emergency. This is to be completed as sources & images are found. I assume that you're happy with the current 8 images so you think all of this is unnecessary. Well I'm not and at least one or two other people agree with me. Regards Tachfin (talk) 11:43, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Then provide an image of an individual who has a Wikipedia article, and a reliable source indicating the individual is Berber. This table won't cut it. Jayjg (talk) 03:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Will do and already done for 1, 22, 29. Tachfin (talk) 11:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
This looks like non cooperative and thickheaded
Come on its just pictures. sign for or against and lets set things up
Dzlinker (talk) 19:29, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Exactly, "its just pictures". So, if you can't be bothered to actually provide decent pictures of people who are reliably sourced to be Berber, then just move on. Jayjg (talk) 03:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi Tachfin, and welcome! Glad to see such a very very new user who's jumped in to this conversation to help push Omar_2788's and Dzlinker's images! You may want to drop them a note, considering the similar interests you three have. Hopefully, you'll spend the time to read the walls of text above so you can properly weigh in on these issues. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 05:31, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Thank you! Tachfin (talk) 11:08, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi Robert M from LI! note it's the same guy Omar2788 and I (take a look at my wall)! :)
regards - Dzlinker (talk) 18:47, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────LoL, I know... ;-) ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 03:13, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Oppose all:the adding of these people was already discussed before and no one but Dzlinker/Omar2788 agreed.
On the other hand, Omar2788/Dzlinker was asked before to get consensus for each picture/person, not to discuss that as a block. I'll not try to look for each tab case and its correspondent picture ; is it too hard to put a simple list instead of a complicated tab/grid?
Omar-Toons (talk) 20:51, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Personality source for ethnicity Occupation Image Notability Agree (sign) Oppose (sign)
1 Abdelkrim al-Khattabi [9] [10] Warlord 30px Dzlinker (talk)
2 Mohamed Ag ALHabib Musician
3 Zidane Sportsman Zinedine Zidane 2008.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
4 Idir Musician Idir Hamid Cheriet.JPG Dzlinker (talk)
5 Mohammed Ameziane Warlord 30px
6 Lalla Fatma N'Soumer Tribal leader Lalla Fadhma N Soumer.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
7 Lounes Matoub Musician Dzlinker (talk)
8 Tariq ibn Ziyad Warlord Tarik ibn Ziyad -.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
9 Abd al-Qadir al-Jaza'iri Warlord Abd al-Qadir.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
10 Ahmed Aboutaleb Politician Aboutaleb Dutch politician kabinet Balkenende IV.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
11 Ibn Battuta Scholar-traveller 30px Dzlinker (talk)
12 Kahina Tribal leader
13 Hocine Aït Ahmed Politician
14 Mohamed Rouicha Musician
15 Mustapha Hadji Sportsman
16 Liamine Zéroual President of Algeria
17 Jamel Debbouze Comedian Jamel Debbouze Cannes 2010.jpg
18 Rachid Niny Journalist
19 Mahjoubi Aherdan Military-Politician
20 General Oufkir Military Dzlinker (talk)
21 Saadeddine Othmani Politician
22 Saïd Taghmaoui [11] Actor Saïd Taghmaoui Cannes.jpg
23 Mohamed Fellag Comedian
24 Mouha ou Hammou Zayani Warlord
25 Thami El Glaoui Caid-Politician
26 Aziz Akhenouch Politician-Businessman-Minister
27 Mohamed VI through His mother King Mohammed VI of Morocco.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
28 Hassan II through His mother King DF-SC-83-08526.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
29 Hélène Grimaud [12] [13] Musician Helene Grimaud Roque-d Antheron 2004.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
30 Fadela Amara Politician Fadela Amara IMG 0248.jpg Dzlinker (talk)
31 Juba I King Juba i.jpg
32 Apuleius Writer Apuleius - Project Gutenberg eText 12788.png
33 Augustine of Hippo Philosopher Augustinus 1.jpg
34 Massinissa King GM Massinissa.png
35 Omar Mukhtar Warlord Omar Mukhtar 13.jpg
36 Averroes Philosopher PSM V25 D300 Averroes.jpg

Discussion about "Ethnic groups"

I think, if we speak about "ethnic group" we Must not use terms like "Kabyle" or "Rif" but terms like "Zayane , Zenata, Kotama ..." because" Kabyle for example, Is A neologisms created by "colonization", this area IS Composed of "zwawa (Tizi Ouzou, Bouira)" "Sanhadja (Boumerdes, Algiers)" and Kotama (Bejaia, Jijel, Msila)...Rifs are sanhadj(Tanger..)Zenata... .

We Can use "Kabyle" or "Rif" to denote a geographical and / or language, but "Kabyle" or "rif" Is Not A ethnicity ....

I think we need to move beyond these "borders" there and not be limited to "entity" chronologically limited.

No? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tariq el jazairi (talkcontribs) 19:47, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Infobox pictures again: Start over

Infobox useless talk archived HERE

Let's start again one by one as asked before; hope w'll get some results!

Muhammad Ibn 'Abd al-Karim al-Khattabi

Support

  1. Symbol confirmed.svg Well known Berber leader, maybe a better quality picture (or the same one with +brightness/-contrast improvement?) could be more appropriate. --Omar-Toons (talk) 22:51, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. Symbol confirmed.svg Agree, he's beyond well-known --Tachfin (talk) 22:51, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
  3. Symbol confirmed.svg Reasonably good picture, well known Berber leader. Jayjg (talk) 23:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
  4. Symbol confirmed.svg Support per sources provided. I will work on improving image contrast. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 04:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

  1. Is he Berber? Is that conferred to him by him moving to Berber territory? Vote contingent on clarification. Cannot determine from what refs I have found (and his article claims no such ancestry - different, actually). I confess I may have missed something - if so, hopefully someone will point out what I missed and accept my apologies for being dense and having missed it.ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: sources are provided. He's refered to, all around, as a Berber and it really is just obvious for those who are familiar with the region. Not sure what you mean by Berber territory, hope you're not making any anologies with native American territory. He moved southwards to Temsamane mountain since he was vulnerable to spanish artillery in the Ait Ouriaghel territory which is a valley. In the source above, there's an extract from an Egyptian newspaper article, written by him, where he speaks about his Berber descent. I think you, sir, are being over-skeptic --Tachfin (talk) 02:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Moved my vote from neutral to support. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 04:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I suspect I missed that (the sources) because I hadn't refreshed the page, and the sources were added afterwards. I kinda got distracted before I got the chance to respond. Sorry about that. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 04:57, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

  • You welcome. Jayjg is going to get the image deleted, so avoid wasting an effort at improving the image. Regards --Tachfin (talk) 18:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)



Averroes

  • PSM V25 D300 Averroes.jpg
  • Ethnicity sources: [16],

Support

Oppose

  1. Symbol declined.svg : Nothing proves that he is Berber (even, I doubt that he has any Berber ancestry) --Omar-Toons (talk) 11:04, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. Symbol declined.svg : No proof e's Berber. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 17:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
  3. Symbol declined.svg : We've been over this before. Only one source claims he is Berber, most reliable sources do not. Jayjg (talk) 22:13, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
  4. Symbol declined.svg: Would be difficult to prove that he's of Berber ancestry, though he most likely had some (at least). The image is just an artist impression. --Tachfin (talk) 02:07, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Neutral



Juba I of Numidia

  • Indicates no such thing in "source", various (of the kings) seem to have be put in place as it was a Roman province and may not have been Berber, and Wikipedia cannot be used as a self source. Do you have an actual source? ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 23:06, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Sources updated (thus strikeout above). Thanks. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Support

  1. Green tickY Dzlinker (talk) 17:11, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Symbol declined.svg : No reliable sources provided here indicating that he is Berber. The sculpture itself has its features damaged. Jayjg (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. Symbol declined.svg not a picture --Omar-Toons (talk) 17:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. a nice book about berbers history, that talks about the subject (french version - google translate it) Dzlinker (talk) 18:31, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. are pictures of statues standard practice in such cases? --Tachfin (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)



Juba II

Support

  1. Green tickY; Dzlinker (talk) 17:11, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Symbol declined.svg : No reliable sources provided here indicating that he is Berber. The sculpture itself has its features damaged. Jayjg (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. Symbol declined.svg not a picture --Omar-Toons (talk) 17:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

  1. statue is of bad quality --Tachfin (talk) 15:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)



Saïd Taghmaoui

  • Saïd Taghmaoui Cannes.jpg
  • Ethnicity sources: [19]

Support

  1. Symbol confirmed.svg Probably the most internationally recognizable Maghrebian Actor. --Tachfin (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. Symbol confirmed.svg Reasonable picture, source as Berber checks out, seems reasonably well-known. Jayjg (talk) 23:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
  3. Green tickY, seems ok Dzlinker (talk) 17:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral



Omar Mukhtar

Support

  1. Green tickY Every thing seems OK Dzlinker (talk) 16:21, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Symbol declined.svg : No reliable sources provided here indicating that he is Berber; if it's so clear that he's Berber, it should be easy to find reliable sources confirming it. Jayjg (talk) 03:29, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. Symbol declined.svg: No reliable source claims such a descent. He was an orphan so establishing his descent would be difficult either way--Tachfin (talk) 17:36, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
    • CommentHe was an orphan so establishing his descent would be difficult either way!! seriously? the second ref says:"and Omar al-Mukhtar was a member of the Minifa, a tribe of Arabized Berbers". those three key-words (omar mukhtar & minifa) gave me around 411,000 results on google, i don't understand ur reticences! Dzlinker (talk) 23:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
    You gave two sources, one is a blog and the other seems to be some kind user generated content. Both do not qualify as reliable sources. Berber tribes of this region were Arabized at an early period, with a lot of nomadic activity, resettling and mix with Yemeni tribes. If you have any information about this Minifa tribe, please bring it forth, but for me in Cyrenaica there are no Berber tribes. And Minifa seems to be the name of a band or something so no wonder if you have a big hit on google --Tachfin (talk) 01:04, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
    here some reliable sources: [22] [23] the term Murabitun refers to arabized berbers Dzlinker (talk) 10:47, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
    Murabitun means Marabout (Religious teacher). It doesn't imply any particular origin IMO. The descendants of the Almoravids who settled in western Libya around the Nafusa mountains, after the fall of their empire were know as Banu Ghaniya, not Murabitun, then again it was western Tripolitana not Cyrenaica.
    According to Sa`ada and Murabtin, the fact that they are Arabized Berbers is disputed. --Tachfin (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
    Dzlinker, please just provide reliable sources that directly state that he is Berber. Jayjg (talk) 20:56, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
  3. Symbol declined.svg Not a berber --Omar-Toons (talk) 17:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Neutral


Masinissa

  • GM Massinissa.png
  • Ethnicity sources: no need i think

Oppose

  1. Symbol declined.svg : No reliable sources provided here indicating that he is Berber; if it's so clear that he's Berber, it should be easy to find reliable sources confirming it. Also, image is some sort of coin/profile, and its source and provenance is unclear. Jayjg (talk) 21:23, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
    My friend you don't have no thing to do with berbers. please contribute in your domain. like this you just interfere with making this a better article. Dzlinker (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
  2. Symbol declined.svg not a picture --Omar-Toons (talk) 17:02, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Wikipedante, 3 October 2011

Spelling error at end of first paragraph, shows (prticularly in France) missing a in particularly.

Wikipedante (talk) 16:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done, thanks--Jac16888 Talk 16:23, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

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Again !! infobox pics

We need 3 berber people from antiquity (Roman and Numido-carthagian era) to have a complete infobox
Berbers aren't there since yesterday, the infobox should have people from every historic period .. i think.
I propose:

with following pictures:

As you know, what we actually need are reliable sources stating that they were Berber, and better images. Could you provide both please? Jayjg (talk) 20:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Augustine of Hippo was berber from his mother's side saint Monica. Many historians assume that she was berber[1]. The ethnicity of his father may be a source of conflict.
Septimus Severus was berber from his father's side[2]. His mother was roman.
Apuleius said about him self that he was berbero-getulian[3], Getules were the berbers of the desert.
Images: I'm afraid this is all we have for now. There are not perfect i agree, but we can still use them until we find others.

- Dzlinker (talk) 13:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

No, we need reliable sources that directly state these individuals were Berber. The individuals themselves, not their mothers, or fathers, or grandfathers, etc. In order to avoid wasting much time (as we have done in the past), please start by providing those sources, and quoting them directly stating these individuals are Berber. Jayjg (talk) 02:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, let's try again. I just found a list of Quotations on wikiquote (link), it concerns Augustin of Hippo, an important majority of scholars identify him as a berber (link above). Hope w'll get a consensus this time Dzlinker (talk) 21:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Wikiquote is not a reliable source. Please cite reliable sources that you have directly read in books. Jayjg (talk) 18:24, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
This book: 'Augustine through the ages: an encyclopedia. Allan D. Fitzgerald (ed.). Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1999, pp. 353 – 354. ISBN 978-0-8028-3843-8', says that Augustine of Hippo was of Berber heritage. Additionally, a quick Google Book search, returns many results supporting this:

I agree on adding at least one of them to Infobox, I added my vote --Tachfin (talk) 23:44, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

We don't have any sources yet, so votes aren't relevant. "Of Berber descent" or "of Berber origin?" doesn't mean Berber. Sources first, then we can discuss whether to add. WP:V is an absolute requirement. Jayjg (talk) 00:55, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── We gave you sources. For Apuleius, he wrote that he was Berber: "As to my birthplace, you assert that my writings prove it to lie right on the marches of Numidia and Gaetulia, for I publicly described myself as half Numidian, half Gaetulian in a discourse delivered in the presence of that most distinguished citizen Lollianus Avitus. I do not see that I have any more reason to be ashamed of that than had the elder Cyrus for being of mixed descent, half Mede, half Persian. A man's birthplace is of no importance, it is his character that matters." [24] That's an excerpt form "The Defense" the main source for autobiographical material on him. You want sources for the meaning of Numidian and Gaetulian too? Tachfin (talk) 17:19, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Like Tachfin stated, Apuleius said himself that he is Berber. In fact, he would never know that he is called Berber, since this name was given to the berbers (imazighen or ..?) after/in Arab era. But he said something like this "I don't feel ashamed for Being half Numidian half Getulian". This statement doens't mean he is so proud of Being Berber, it is rather a statement of royality and fidelity for his origins. Some will also ask a source for the claim that Numidia and Getulia would mean "Berber". It happens!. Now, Numidia might be a name that the others gave to them (not sure), But the name "Getule" survived until later era, and we find it in arab source as "Gudala". even, I think that the name "Apuleius" (clearly latinized version) also survive in familial names. The Berber version would be Afellay, the name of a dutch footballer (the hisotry repeat itself, in the image he is saying "I don't feel ashamed for being berber/amazigh (the flag) So, the origin of Apuleius may not be confused any more).Amazigh-cause (talk) 12:17, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Let's now talk about Augstine and Severus. To begin, their origins are indeed not that clear. I tried to find an eleminating source of their origin. But it is more safe to say there is no eleminating direct source of their origin. Instead, as you begin, to find a source of his berbe/amazigh origin, you find a clear source stating he is Phoenician not a Berber. Augustine said: If you ask our peasants who they are they will answer in Punic "chanani". , with "chanani" he means "Canaanite". This is another problem (is Phoenicians to the Canaanites like Berber is to the Amazigh?). But is it really so that Hippo Regius Annaba, Algeria) the residence of the Numidian (Berber) kings was Punic-speaking in the fifth century AC in Algeria, and two centeries after the Arabs find no Phoenicians any more. We know that Augustine's father was Roman (since he served in Roman army), it is accepted that Augustine was Romanized and possibly spoke no berber no punic. He could confuse the Libyan (berber or numidian) language with punic language. Here explained (That Augustine himself used the term "Punic" to refer to ancient Libyan seems evident in a point he made in one of his sermons in Ten Homilies on the Epistle of ). It make no sense that Augustine knew only the Phoenicians, but it remains disputed. I'm in favour of the idea that Augstinue referred to Libyans in place of punics in Hippo which is the normal case. Therefore, many Frensh sholars called Augustine simply "the Berber". Note that Gabriel Camps was an authority in the North African history, and deserve the name "Father of North African history". In the book of Robin Daniel (this holy seed), he also call Augustine and Tertullian Berbers, and believe that Augustine was referring by punic to each non-latin language in north africa (see book, use search function with keyword "Berber").
But about Severus I don't think there are efficient sources to talk about, however Robin Daniel says in that same book (this holy seed) that he also was berber, I quote for him "Thirty years later persecution reared its ugly head once more. This time it was inspired by a man who was himself an Amazigh – the emperor Septimius Severus, the first African to wear the imperial purple. Severus was a native of Leptis Magna near modern Tripoli in Libya, and this strange man ruled in Rome for eighteen years from AD 193 until he died in AD 211 far from home, in York, England. Roman writers describe him as a “Berber” who had learned Latin well but who never lost his African accent". But I agree if you say he is not an authority in this question. Someone an acces to this? A NOTE ON THE BERBER BACKGROUND IN THE LIFE OF AUGUSTINE Amazigh-cause (talk) 13:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
My conclusion: Apuleius is Berber (with no miniscule doubt), Augustinus is a romanized Berber on basis of many arguments. Severus is not clear wether he was berber or not (I don't find efficient sources), so like is widespread a mixture of berber and phoenician and possible roman blood. Some were called Afer (where Africa is derived), but what did the Romans mean exactly with Afer? I think this is a question, which is neglected. Amazigh-cause (talk) 15:06, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Augustine of Hippo is not a reliable secondary source. Without such sources, no names can be added here. Please provide them. Jayjg (talk) 23:19, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

3 voices for 1. I wonder which one doesn't count. Proofs and consensus. For Masinissa, he was the first king of Berbers, he was one of them (logic). Please avoid useless confrontation, just give one reference that support your position. I see your page have been vandalized more than a hundred times! Not much. - Dzlinker (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
You've counted wrong, the vote of an editor with a sum total of 10 edits doesn't weigh very heavily, "consensus" doesn't trump policy. See also WP:DEMOCRACY and WP:VOTE. If you keep this up, administrative action will be next. Jayjg (talk) 01:39, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Stop the disruptive editing!
Dzlinker, take a few minutes to read WP:DEMOCRACY and WP:VOTE : this edit and its summary indicates that you don't understand what does Consensus mean.
On the other hand, please avoid adding sth. else than portraits/photographies to the template mosaic, pictures of statutes and drawings are inappropriate.
Omar-Toons (talk) 23:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Jayjg said there is no reliable source indicating he -apuleius- is Berber. Huh... typical for wikipedia style. Amazigh-cause (talk) 17:46, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

On-going content dispute and slow motion edit warring

I don't edit this article often although it is on my Watchlist and I've been noticing this dispute for some time now. As an uninvolved editor, I'd like to offer some advice. First off, this seems to be a content dispute, not vandalism. For the integrity of Wikipedia in general and this page in particular, please refrain from edit warring in the article. Use the talk page to attempt to reach a consensus first and THEN make your edits. If, after discussion and compromise, you still can not reach a consensus, there are other options available such as asking the community for a third opinion, seeking input from other editors at Wikipedia:Requests for comment or asking for Dispute Resolution. I urge anybody involved to attempt to reach consensus, or, failing that, to seek help from the community. Simply reverting each other's edits is unproductive and bad for Wikipedia.--William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 22:05, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


Created a thread on the dispute resolution board, hoping for a massive participation, so this issue will be classified for good. Regards. - Dzlinker (talk) 17:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Black Berbers

The article seems to be completely cleansed of images or references to black Berbers. They are a significant group, so they should of course be both depicted and mentioned. FunkMonk (talk) 01:47, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

the jewish part

Dihya's Jewishness is discussable. Many historians relate her wearing Gurzil head on her own head while fighting the Byzantines then the Arabs. Gurzil is one of two berber war deities (the other one was Ifri). -Dzlinker 13:39, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Berbers of North Africa vs Berbers of Somalia

Hi, can any one with knowledge of Berber etymology confirm this allegation [25] thanks --2.50.236.122 (talk) 10:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

there is no fcking berbers in somalia ! totaly different people and langage and there is no fucking berber who speak this fucking langage : Xaar iyo Dhuuso ! so please somali are ethnic somali,berbers are ethnic imazighen nothing to deal with you  ! berber is a word used by greek to define all the non-hellenic people ! berbers people call themselves as IMAZIGHEN !

Title the page Amazigh instead of Berber

I am doing research for a Masters level paper and I have come across numerous sources which state that Berber is a perjorative term for the Amazigh peoples. Currently Amazigh links to the Berber people page, would it be better to make the page entitled Amazigh instead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bennyj600 (talkcontribs) 20:43, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Averroes a Berber?

There is no evidence that Averroes was a Berber. He was an Arabic-speaking Muslim from Spain (Andalus). Perhaps some European/Western authors say he was of Berber ancestry, but this is biased thinking. It is based on the assumption that the majority of Muslims in Spain were Berbers. In fact, as is pointed out by multiple sources and more modern scholarly works (and the articles in Wikipedia itself), most of the Muslims in Spain (especially by the time of Averroes) were Muladi aka Islamized & Arabized Spaniards. If anything, Averroes was a Muslim Spaniard/Iberian who's ethnic identity was most likely Arab. There is nothing to indicate that he was either descended from Berbers or that he even believed he had any Berber in him. To say he was Berber is to project an outdated belief (that most/all Andalusian Muslims were Berbers) onto a man who in all likelihood identified as an Andalusian Arab and who might have been aware that he was descended from Mozarabic/Spanish/Iberian Christians.--Fernirm (talk) 22:07, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but Dihya Kahina was still a Berber and my mosaic still got reverted to an original. And how do we know that Loreen was a Berber? All it says was that she's Moroccan, and I highly doubt Karim Benzama was a Berber either. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 02:03, 24 December 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101