Talk:Birmingham pub bombings/Archive 2
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England/Britain
Hi Kieron, can you expand on your edit summary? I don't understand why you replaced 'England' with 'Britain', or added the adjective 'mainland'. Gob Lofa (talk) 17:31, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
- Both of us said the same thing. Mainland Britain is the normal term in use around the Troubles and it was to separate from Britain, not from England. ----Snowded TALK 20:42, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
- Further to Snowded's reply, I suspect you may have been implying that the PIRA focused the actual locale of their attacks from 1973 onward upon England as opposed to other areas of the U.K. which nationalists held no desire to be/remain part of (that is what I suspect was the basis of the logic of your edit re: England). As it stood and stands the U.K. (Britain) obv. consists of 3 sections on the "mainland" of the U.K., plus Northern Ireland. Despite the ideology of the likes of Nicola Sturgeon and Leanne Wood being to the contrary, Scotland and Wales remain part of the U.K., so the campaign was extended to the "mainland" of the U.K. as it stood and stands. As Snowded rightly points out, it was not just England the PIRA wished to sever union with.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:58, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
- Gob Lofa also objects to using "mainland" at Ulster Resistance, continually removing it despite the fact NI can also fall under the term Britain. Mabuska (talk) 00:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- There, per agreements in the British Island articles and others I think he is correct. Yes it can fall under Britain in some sources, but that is incorrect, Britain as a geographical or political entity does not include Northern Island ----Snowded TALK 05:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- The IRA bombed England, which is the part of Britain I'm talking about. When we're talking about separation, I'll use Britain. Gob Lofa (talk) 08:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- They bombed the Midlands, which is a part of England, which is a part of Britain, which is a part of the United Kingdom, which is a part of Europe, which is a part of the World and so on. In the context of the Troubles we are talking about Britain and Ireland. ----Snowded TALK 09:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- They didn't just bomb the Midlands, they bombed all of England. In this context, we're talking about "In 1973, the IRA extended its campaign to England, attacking military and symbolically important targets to both increase pressure on the British government, via popular British opinion,[1] to concede to their demand to withdraw from Northern Ireland,[2] and to maintain morale amongst their supporters.[3] By 1974, England saw an average of one attack—successful or otherwise—every three days." Not just the Midlands, not quite Britain. Gob Lofa (talk) 09:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- You are (again) in a minority on this. Your quote on 1973 says Britain - did you check? Otherwise I'm not wasting time on this unless other editors engage. You are in a minority of one and this is a Troubles article covered by the sanction for which you have already been blocked ----Snowded TALK 20:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Snowded, the bombing campaign in Britain was restricted to one part of it, which has a name. This isn't an issue anywhere else. Why insist on Britain? Gob Lofa (talk) 20:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- I'm with Gob Lofa in this. The PIRA deliberarely excluded Scotland and Wales from their bombing campaign. All the attacks in Great Brirain were thereby confined to England.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- not unless they've moved the Shetland Islands to England. [1].--Egghead06 (talk) 12:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Find a source which says that Jeanne and I'm open to it, as far as I remember it the general phrase was the British Mainland and they focused on the major cities or the specific location of politicians (Brighton) all of which happen to be in England ----Snowded TALK 13:24, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- [2] Gob Lofa (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Single news report which simply says there have been no attacks in Wales or Scotland. If the Conservative Party conference had been in Cardiff not Brighton then I am sure we would have been hit as well. You need an academic source really which says the targeting was specifically England not Britain ----Snowded TALK 15:13, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- [2] Gob Lofa (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Find a source which says that Jeanne and I'm open to it, as far as I remember it the general phrase was the British Mainland and they focused on the major cities or the specific location of politicians (Brighton) all of which happen to be in England ----Snowded TALK 13:24, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- not unless they've moved the Shetland Islands to England. [1].--Egghead06 (talk) 12:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- I'm with Gob Lofa in this. The PIRA deliberarely excluded Scotland and Wales from their bombing campaign. All the attacks in Great Brirain were thereby confined to England.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Snowded, the bombing campaign in Britain was restricted to one part of it, which has a name. This isn't an issue anywhere else. Why insist on Britain? Gob Lofa (talk) 20:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- You are (again) in a minority on this. Your quote on 1973 says Britain - did you check? Otherwise I'm not wasting time on this unless other editors engage. You are in a minority of one and this is a Troubles article covered by the sanction for which you have already been blocked ----Snowded TALK 20:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- They didn't just bomb the Midlands, they bombed all of England. In this context, we're talking about "In 1973, the IRA extended its campaign to England, attacking military and symbolically important targets to both increase pressure on the British government, via popular British opinion,[1] to concede to their demand to withdraw from Northern Ireland,[2] and to maintain morale amongst their supporters.[3] By 1974, England saw an average of one attack—successful or otherwise—every three days." Not just the Midlands, not quite Britain. Gob Lofa (talk) 09:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- They bombed the Midlands, which is a part of England, which is a part of Britain, which is a part of the United Kingdom, which is a part of Europe, which is a part of the World and so on. In the context of the Troubles we are talking about Britain and Ireland. ----Snowded TALK 09:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- The IRA bombed England, which is the part of Britain I'm talking about. When we're talking about separation, I'll use Britain. Gob Lofa (talk) 08:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- There, per agreements in the British Island articles and others I think he is correct. Yes it can fall under Britain in some sources, but that is incorrect, Britain as a geographical or political entity does not include Northern Island ----Snowded TALK 05:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Gob Lofa also objects to using "mainland" at Ulster Resistance, continually removing it despite the fact NI can also fall under the term Britain. Mabuska (talk) 00:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Further to Snowded's reply, I suspect you may have been implying that the PIRA focused the actual locale of their attacks from 1973 onward upon England as opposed to other areas of the U.K. which nationalists held no desire to be/remain part of (that is what I suspect was the basis of the logic of your edit re: England). As it stood and stands the U.K. (Britain) obv. consists of 3 sections on the "mainland" of the U.K., plus Northern Ireland. Despite the ideology of the likes of Nicola Sturgeon and Leanne Wood being to the contrary, Scotland and Wales remain part of the U.K., so the campaign was extended to the "mainland" of the U.K. as it stood and stands. As Snowded rightly points out, it was not just England the PIRA wished to sever union with.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:58, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
It does not have to be an "academic" source. Just a reliable one. Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 18:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Snowded, do you have a reliable source that is as sure as you are that the IRA would have hit a Tory conference in Cardiff? Gob Lofa (talk) 21:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Agree Imperatrix, but academic sources count highest. Gob Lofa, per comments elsewhere, when you make a serious comment I will respond ----Snowded TALK 23:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- H'mmm didn't Scotland Yard order 'close England' in 1973...? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 10:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- One of the interesting things (and deeply irritating) about the English is that they tend to use England and Britain interchangeably, the imperial past (and to a degree present), while the Welsh, Scots and Irish are more precise in their use. As I have said if there are sources which say that PIRA deliberately only targeted England then we can look at the balance of that against the uses of Britain. ----Snowded TALK 12:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- Please WP:AGF for the whole of fecking England :) Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 14:16, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- One of the interesting things (and deeply irritating) about the English is that they tend to use England and Britain interchangeably, the imperial past (and to a degree present), while the Welsh, Scots and Irish are more precise in their use. As I have said if there are sources which say that PIRA deliberately only targeted England then we can look at the balance of that against the uses of Britain. ----Snowded TALK 12:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- H'mmm didn't Scotland Yard order 'close England' in 1973...? Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 10:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- Agree Imperatrix, but academic sources count highest. Gob Lofa, per comments elsewhere, when you make a serious comment I will respond ----Snowded TALK 23:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- "If there are sources"? Gob Lofa (talk) 19:41, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
- Anything to add, Snowded? Gob Lofa (talk) 12:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- No, the point has been made and there is no consensus for change ----Snowded TALK 13:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- It was disingenuous of you to say that we needed an academic source instead of a reliable one; you compounded that by using the word 'if' when you knew full well a source has been provided. And now you try to provoke an edit war. Your gaming is growing tiresome, Snowded. Gob Lofa (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- No, the point has been made and there is no consensus for change ----Snowded TALK 13:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Compromise - replace England with United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 13:13, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- The point GoodDay is a political one as Gob Lofa knows well ----Snowded TALK 13:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- GoodDay, the point is that England is more specific than Britain and thus more accurate. UK is even less specific than GB. Gob Lofa (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- But the point, Gob Lofa, is that the United Kingdom does not consist of just England and Northern Ireland.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- When we're discussing the IRA's bombing campaign in England Kieron, that's very much not the point at all. Gob Lofa (talk) 10:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well you heard my earlier point regarding focusing the attacks upon England from '73 onwards, but, the objective was to disengage from the U.K. and not just England. If it'll appease you, I'll find a reference to briefly add that the actual locale of the mainland attacks were focused upon England. Perhaps immediately after the below text, something like one of the two highlighted pieces of inserted text:
- In 1973, the IRA extended its campaign to mainland Britain, attacking military and symbolically important targets in England to both increase pressure on the British government, via popular British opinion, to concede to their demand to withdraw from Northern Ireland, and to maintain morale amongst their supporters. By 1974, mainland Britain saw an average of one attack—successful or otherwise—every three days. These mainland attacks themselves were focused upon England, and included five explosions which had occurred in Birmingham on 14 July, one of which had occurred at the Rotunda.
- I won't go into too much depth for proposed insertions upon the talk page, but, if you like (and consensus governs), I'll morph one of these segments of information into this paragrapgh. Personally, I think it most appropriate in this section.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- 'Mainland' is redundant and makes it sound like they were coming from Anglesey or Skye. I don't see the need for 'Britain' at all, let alone twice. 'Focused upon England' is just plain misleading. Gob Lofa (talk) 01:30, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Kieronoldham I really don't see the need to compromise here, the normal use if mainland Britain and I am increasing of the view that Gob Lofa is in the category of "not to be fed" ----Snowded TALK 02:30, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- But Anglesey and Skye are part of subsections of the U.K. and I see no virulent determined movement for segregation/independence. I cannot fathom the procrastination here.
- Snowded, don't worry. I agree, and this is my final reply on the matter.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- "I really don't see the need to compromise here" - unfortunately that sums up a frequent attitude of yours Snowded, more's the pity that it's often on subjects your grasp of which leaves a lot to be desired. Your belligerence is unseemly and worse, encourages others. Gob Lofa (talk) 09:49, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- FWIW, this is a topic I paid particular attention to. I cannot remember a single BBC news item of the time which didn't separate attacks into either the mainland or a named part of Ireland. JRPG (talk) 11:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- "The mainland"? Since when does Ireland have a mainland that's not the European continent? Do you think RTE or other non-British news outlets use this Anglocentric term? Gob Lofa (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- FWIW, this is a topic I paid particular attention to. I cannot remember a single BBC news item of the time which didn't separate attacks into either the mainland or a named part of Ireland. JRPG (talk) 11:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- "I really don't see the need to compromise here" - unfortunately that sums up a frequent attitude of yours Snowded, more's the pity that it's often on subjects your grasp of which leaves a lot to be desired. Your belligerence is unseemly and worse, encourages others. Gob Lofa (talk) 09:49, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Kieronoldham I really don't see the need to compromise here, the normal use if mainland Britain and I am increasing of the view that Gob Lofa is in the category of "not to be fed" ----Snowded TALK 02:30, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- 'Mainland' is redundant and makes it sound like they were coming from Anglesey or Skye. I don't see the need for 'Britain' at all, let alone twice. 'Focused upon England' is just plain misleading. Gob Lofa (talk) 01:30, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well you heard my earlier point regarding focusing the attacks upon England from '73 onwards, but, the objective was to disengage from the U.K. and not just England. If it'll appease you, I'll find a reference to briefly add that the actual locale of the mainland attacks were focused upon England. Perhaps immediately after the below text, something like one of the two highlighted pieces of inserted text:
- When we're discussing the IRA's bombing campaign in England Kieron, that's very much not the point at all. Gob Lofa (talk) 10:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- But the point, Gob Lofa, is that the United Kingdom does not consist of just England and Northern Ireland.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- GoodDay, the point is that England is more specific than Britain and thus more accurate. UK is even less specific than GB. Gob Lofa (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Anyone (other that Gob Lofa) object to us closing this thread? There is no support for a change ----Snowded TALK 15:06, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- "No support"? Pretty much sums up your attitude to those who disagree with you. Gob Lofa (talk) 17:38, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
- Here we are: "We should avoid using the word "mainland" when talking about Great Britain in relation to Northern Ireland." because "The easiest mistake to avoid is the casual and loose use of language which betrays a skewed perspective on a story or an inadequate understanding of institutions in different parts of the UK.", from BBC Editorial Guidelines. [3] Happily, you folk can avoid this mistake in future. Gob Lofa (talk) 11:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
- Any other objections? Gob Lofa (talk) 22:31, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
- You do not have agreement to any change ----Snowded TALK 05:55, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- This I could see. My question was, do I have opposition? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- Don't be perverse; your change was rejected and nothing there has changed. ----Snowded TALK 22:00, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- Endless trolling still continuing. Why not open a RfC Gob Lofa? See if you can get more input and see what they think. Mabuska (talk) 23:00, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- You're not meant to feed them Mabuska .... ----Snowded TALK 23:08, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- Really, Snowded? The BBC's guidelines mean nothing to you? I'd be happy to join your RfC, Mabuska. Gob Lofa (talk) 23:02, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- You've definitely used odder get-out clauses than that, Snowded. Let's see how she plays. Gob Lofa (talk) 23:24, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- Any other objections? Gob Lofa (talk) 20:41, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
- No new ones and you still don't have support so you have no authority to make any change. If you do it will be reverted ----Snowded TALK 09:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Learning the BBC's guidelines doesn't affect your stance? Gob Lofa (talk) 12:22, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- No new ones and you still don't have support so you have no authority to make any change. If you do it will be reverted ----Snowded TALK 09:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
- Endless trolling still continuing. Why not open a RfC Gob Lofa? See if you can get more input and see what they think. Mabuska (talk) 23:00, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- Don't be perverse; your change was rejected and nothing there has changed. ----Snowded TALK 22:00, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- This I could see. My question was, do I have opposition? Gob Lofa (talk) 10:19, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
- You do not have agreement to any change ----Snowded TALK 05:55, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
References
- ^ Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA p. 169
- ^ O'Day, Alan. Political Violence in Northern Ireland p.20
- ^ BBC News 4 Mar., 2011
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Suitable word to replace "volunteers"
Please could a suitable word be found to replace "volunteer" in the following:
- Mick Murray (a Provisional IRA volunteer arrested later for other bombings)
Volunteer is I think not a suitable word. "Terrorist" is apparently unacceptable under WP:NPOV / WP:TERRORIST, so perhaps "bomber" or some such could be settled upon for Murray? A.C. Norman (talk) 22:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Terrorist" is unacceptable, is it? Then how do you account for this:-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks Khamba Tendal (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Birmingham Six
There is too much detail in this article, that more properly belongs in the article on the Birmingham Six; for example the John Walker quote-box (which I removed, and another editor has restored), and the paragraph on the death of Richard McIlkenny. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:38, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, and about half of the lead is dedicated to the Birmingham 6. That's excessive. Flexdream (talk) 15:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)