Talk:Brace Belden

Birth date

I've just added Belden's birthdate and birthplace to the article. Mindful of policies like WP:BLPPRIVACY and WP:BLPPRIMARY that generally caution against the inclusion of birth dates in certain contexts, I thought I would briefly explain my justification for including this information.

The source is accessible via the California Birth Index website, a searchable public database created by an agency of the CA state government that includes all registered births in California between 1905 and 1995. According to its homepage, the site is a database of "abstracts" of birth records rather than the birth records themselves. That is, the site does not include all of the information that would be available on a full birth certificate to minimize the potential for identity theft or abuse. In that sense, I don't believe I have relied on a "primary source" within the meaning of the primary source policy above. California state law imposes restrictions on who can request and access a full birth certificate.

Sources such as the San Francisco Chronicle and New York magazine have noted that he is currently 27, and the SF Chronicle also described him as a "millennial," and so his age/generational ID is fairly well-known and relevant. I would have included just his birth year (which is what I did in the main text), but that is not possible to verify with age alone (without referring to that record, it's not possible to know if he had been born in late 1989 or early 1990). He was also a combatant in a warzone, making his age relevant to his service and biography, and I would argue that he is otherwise notable enough to justify including a birth date.

If there are any concerns about this inclusion, please let me know. I wanted to state my position in advance since this is a slightly gray area and I feel there are valid considerations on either side. —BLZ · talk 17:47, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

High School

Belden mentioned going to private high school Dalton in Episode #335 of Chapo Trap House but not sure if it's a joke. 200.6.223.109 (talk) 20:02, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Definitely a joke, that's where Epstein taught. Brace is from San Francisco. Julia ☺ 01:31, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Nicknames

What's the story with all his nicknames in the infobox? Why does he have 14 nicknames, some of them pretty vulgar like DaGayPussyEatah and TranslavanyanC*cksucker, and only 3 of them have citations to reliable sources? These extra nicknames strike me as unencyclopedic and a violation of WP:BLP. I've gone through and deleted the nicknames without reliable secondary sources a couple of times, but over time IP's add them back. Thoughts? –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP, keep deleting. Keep protected as necessary. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:27, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP, there is nothing in violation here. I am a longtime Wikipedia user, and I wrote the wikipedia page for The Herodotus Machine. Coincidentally I am a TrueAnon listener, and for whatever reason Brace has a lot of nicknames. He is a veteran. Half of these nicknames come from the war. He fought fascism. He has people on the show who have known him at different points in his life. I think it is totally reasonable that he goes by many different names. He just had an episode released where a new nickname was used. My suggestion is lock the page until the 20th, and so long as an episode is cited let the nickname stay. Some of the nicknames removed were jokes but a good number of them were cited and actually used by Brace's loved ones, comrades in arms, and rabid fans. I volunteer to gatekeep what is a real nickname and a fake nickname. I have avoided editing this page because I am a fan, but first and formost I am a wikipedia boi. -–TimTamFlimFlam — Preceding undated comment added 19:00, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Please bear with me, but I am a bit confused about the "source" being used to cite these alleged nicknames. Am I correct in saying that "TrueAnon" is some kind of conspiracy theorist podcast? A conspiracy theorist podcast would not be considered a reliable secondary source on much of anything other than the opinions of the hosts. We would not be able to accept a litany of nicknames cited to such a disreputable source. 2600:8800:1880:68:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 22:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I assumed you were familiar with the topic we were discussing. Brace Belden is one of the hosts of TrueAnon. Liz Franczak really runs the whole thing, but Mr. Belden has a segment or something; again I have only listened to a fleeting amount of episodes. But as I understand it when they interview someone, and a nickname is reminisced about the source is Brace Belden himself, 9/10 confirmed by the people he's speaking with. The source of most of these nicknames are autobiographical in nature. I don't really understand why a podcast host has a wikipedia page myself. However this is the 21st century I guess. Additionally, this discussion pertains to Wikipedia's rules concerning the encyclopedic nature of biographical pages. Is it not encyclopedic to include the words of the subject themselves? I don't quite understand where this animosity is coming from r.e. sourcing Belden's nicknames. -–TimTamFlimFlam — Preceding undated comment added 23:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for removing your comment accusing me of being anti-Semitic. I didn't know Belden was Jewish until you mentioned it, and that comment was completely inappropriate. We could perhaps ignore a couple of uncited nicknames in an infobox under normal circumstances. But there are a couple of things raising this from the level of "normal page, work in progress" to "violating multiple policies, needs attention now". 1) The subject is a living person. We have stricter rules for these types of articles. 2) The number of nicknames is getting quite high. 14 when I counted yesterday. 3) A couple of the nicknames are mildly offensive (pisspig) and a couple of the nicknames are extremely offensive (Translyvania C*cksucker, DaGayPussyEatah). The problem with not having any citations should be clear. The problem with having citations to podcasts is that they are WP:PRIMARY. Primary sources are allowed sometimes, but in general most articles and most citations should be WP:SECONDARY sources such as newspapers and books, in order to get the WP:WEIGHT right. A person or their close associates should not be able to invent nicknames for themselves that very few people use, and get them published in an encyclopedia. That is undue weight and self-promotion. I let this slide for a long time, and just reverted every once in awhile without pushing the issue much, but yesterday's addition of Translyvanian C*cksucker crossed a line. These offensive nicknames that are not used by the mainstream are, quite simply, not encyclopedic. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:21, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I realized my point was unclear and deleted. I wasn't calling you anti-semitic, I was suggesting there are two things going on here. There is animosity about using autobiographical sources, and maybe offensive IP address originating nicknames from anti-Semitic trolls. There were one or two offensive ones, but a decent amount had sources and were non-offensive. And it is my opinion you are over policing a non-issue. If you want to argue that there shouldn't even be a wikipedia page for a podcaster that's a different discussion. But if this guy was an author and writing autobiographical stories about his life and alluded to nicknames that are no longer in use, I think it would be obviously an allowable source. Perhaps secondary sources are more valuable for both authors or podcasters, but as you say primary sources are fine as well in some cases and you've removed several primary sourced nicknames. Having three secondary sourced nicknames seem proof enough that this Belden fellow is weird and lives a life that we can't comprehend. -–TimTamFlimFlam

Fair enough, apologies for misinterpreting your anti-Semitic comment. I don't dispute his notability at all. His notability is top notch by Wikipedia standards. He easily passes WP:GNG, with these 3 reliable sources doing entire articles on him: [1][2][3]. This is purely about dealing with the issues I mentioned above: WP:BLP, too many nicknames (I suspect that if a person has 14 nicknames in their article, that it's unlikely that all of those are commonly used, which is a WP:WEIGHT issue), nicknames with poor sourcing, and vulgar nicknames. As articles get better and move toward higher classifications such as WP:GA, you'll notice that less primary sources and more secondary sources are used. Just because we let it slide when articles are newer, doesn't mean that it's not the standard. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:21, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Is this an issue of the nicknames remaining in his infobox which has a higher standard or does this apply to the whole article? Perhaps an Alleged Nickname section in the biography section as a compromise? -–TimTamFlimFlam

Wikipedia's policy on Biographies of living people is clear and non-negotiable. It applies equally to infoboxes, article bodies and every page on Wikipedia. Contentious material that is not sourced to high quality reliable sources must be removed immediately. Self-published sources are OK for non-contentious things like birthplace and graduation details, but certainly for not long lists of nicknames, some of them vulgar or demeaning. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:41, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

TimTamFlimFlam, you made it on the pod! Thanksforhelping (talk) 23:55, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

"Bad Boy" Brace Belden

I've re-added the "Bad Boy" Brace Belden nickname, this was in the same Thrasher mag citation that was used for adding his second band, Wild Thing, to this page along with it being in the liner notes of these albums (not currently cited). It's as notable as the President Chaos nickname he used while in Warkrime. Cmahns (talk) 19:46, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Cmahns, cite looks good. Thanks for adding. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:53, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Mr. Fireworks

In "Episode 167: Church And State" of TrueAnon, co-host Liz Franczak refers to Brace as Mr. Fireworks around the 0:27 mark. Would this allow for the Mr. Fireworks nickname to be reinstated on Belden's article? This appears to be the only time Brace has been referred to by a nickname on the podcast by someone other than himself. As Mr. Fireworks is one of the TrueAnon community's most beloved aliases of Brace Belden, I think it would be wise to consider adding it on. I totally understand if this is not acceptable though. AceGothstein (talk) 22:25, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

AceGothstein, I wouldn't be comfortable adding it. Because the nicknames section has gotten out of control before (too many nicknames, offensive nicknames), I think it's reasonable to insist on really good citations for nicknames. Things like newspapers and books referring to him as this or mentioning the nickname. I wouldn't be comfortable with citations to the podcast, which would be a type of WP:SELFPUBLISH where anybody can make up a nickname for him and get it in the article. Hope that sounds reasonable. –Novem Linguae (talk) 06:22, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Birthdate

Please remove the reference to California Birth Index, which contravenes WP:BLPPRIMARY. 2600:8800:1880:68:5604:A6FF:FE38:4B26 (talk) 09:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Done. Although I'm not sure it's much of an improvement. Now we have an unsourced birth year. –Novem Linguae (talk) 10:03, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Further improved. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:07, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Service Branch

Judging by the badges displayed in some of his interviews, he was a member of United Freedom Forces as well as YPG. Should this be added? 169.233.163.122 (talk) 09:17, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

here, this confirms it. he joined BOG later. https://www.tampabay.com/news/military/war/this-is-how-an-american-florist-and-a-georgetown-graduate-wound-up/2318685/

I have added his BÖG service. I think I bungled the citation formatting but there is a source there. 169.233.163.122 (talk) 21:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)