Talk:Castle

The ongoing squabble about what a "Castle" is

Once again, the subject of the article has been flagged. Yes there are things other than the subject structures that are called castles. But the subject of the article remains the English-language fortified-residence castle. I am sure that in languages not English, the word that is often translated to "Castle" in English may well need to refer to a very different set of structures. "Castle" is an English word that refers to (haha) castles. It also can simply refer to any magnificent/old mansion. But the subject of the article remains. I think if there is adequate interest, it might be that we need articles like (I don't think we do but...) "Castle (mansion)", "Castle (Japan)" or some such. But in English language literature, castle immediately invokes a crenelated, often moated, fortified residence. Unless there is support for leaving them in, I will remove the 2 "citation needed" items when I pass back through in weeks/months.Shajure (talk) 02:17, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

There is an article about the structure we call House in English. It includes examples of the variation in construction materials and form, and there are examples from Europe, North America, East Asia, and other parts of the world. The subject is not limited to the English-speaker's mental and cultural image of a "house". It includes all structures, no matter what they are called in the language(s) of the home cultures, that fulfill the criteria of the definition of the English word "house". The word "house" is not a proper noun, so it is not restricted to one specific building. The generalized, inclusive article House does not preclude the need for more detailed or specialized articles on structures such as mobile home, townhouse, mansion, and other structures that may be identified as, or fall within the parameters, of a house; nor does it necessitate articles on houses in each culture and language, because in many cultures, the word for "house" still denotes a permanent structure with four walls and a roof, intended as a residence, and so most such articles would become redundant. All of this applies to the term castle. - Boneyard90 (talk) 19:02, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

These comments do not seem to be relevant to translation errors. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

There are French expressions like "maison forte", and stronger "chateau fort", to emphasize a really permanent structure, appropriate to live in and appropriate to be defended by the inhabitants. German expression "Festes Haus" for a smaller castle, a fortified house easy to defend, means the same. Similar expressions are "Turmhof" and "Turmhaus" ("tower (farm) yard" / "tower house") or "Weiher Haus" ("house in a pond"). Castles had been built in response to challenges and threats, as well as in accordance to military necessities, representative purposes and adminstrative tasks. A lot of castles had been remodelled as circumstances changed and time went by: For example, a Norman motte-and-baily style castle originally had been appropriate for a smaller number of inhabitants, but could easily been expanded over the decades and centuries. Some old motte style castles have been expanded to impressive sizes continously until today, as shows Windsor Castle. 2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF (talk) 20:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Explanation

Currently 3 users are pro-add to rooms of castle (note that Wretchskull agrees if only the sub-headings are completed.) and 1 user is pro-remove. I had written the subheading "Great hall" which has a reasonable amount of text and is sourced. So, I am assuming that Wretchskull also agrees to add this subheading since it meets his standarts explained by him above which makes the situation 3 to 1 which I believe lays the ground for concencus. So, I am adding the "Great hall" back.--V. E. (talk) 18:16, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

@Visnelma: Good work on the bit about the great hall, it's an excellent addition to the article. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:49, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022

"A castle is a type of fortified structure built during the Middle Ages predominantly by the nobility or royalty and by military orders."

This should be changed to:

"A castle is a type of fortified structure typically built during but not limited to the Middle Ages predominantly by the nobility or royalty and by military orders."

The term castle can apply to buildings built outside of this era. 2601:240:CC08:1F40:ADE9:71E5:844:C3AB (talk) 06:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Can't agree. Other uses are references to the middle-age castles. "My home is my castle.", the Smithsonian Castle, for example.Shajure (talk) 08:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Further: This is addressed in P1, S2.Shajure (talk) 02:01, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Age of Castles in Britain

Castles had been existing in Britain, as well as in almost all other European regions, at least since early Celtic times. However, as late as end of 11th century, the motte style castles came to Britain due to an invasion by William the Bastard, a self styled "Norman" warrior and as "William the Conqueror" new "king of England". So any statement that there had been no castles in Britain before 1066 are mere nonsense. Please correct this.2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF (talk) 11:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The article does not claim there were no castles in Britain before 1066. Instead it notes, with reference to D. J. Cathcart King (1998, pp. 32-43), that castles were introduced to England shortly before 1066. Richard Nevell (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! However, as ancient Britain had been part of the Celtic culture, there had been castles way before. As "castle" is derived from Latin and the Romans had conquerred Celtic Europe, including what became England in later centuries, David James Cathcart King either must have been ignoring Latin sources or he misunderstood what he found. Of course, specific motte style castles had only become predominant in England after 1066, however there had been an enormous amount of castles built n other styles/ according to other concepts before. A castle always had been built for specific needs and due to specific challenges. For example, king Alfred the Great did build castles, and so did his noble men, according to the threats and fortification necessities of their time. Genereally speaking, in Europe, building fortifications might have started as soon as at the end of Neolithicum/ Younger Stone Age - and Britain had already been in close contact with Central Europe in this time.

I have visitied a lot of castles so far, and in fact, a lot of castles are way older than the structures you see today. There has been quite a lot of research on this: E. g. archeologist Carl Schuchhardt had dedicated his whole life to do scientific research on castles. He had been one of Europe's best experts during his time. However, in Britain some of the research work done by people on the continent might have been ignored? 2001:9E8:AA8C:ED00:BD00:3761:526B:69CF (talk) 20:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

It's an interesting issue which comes down to how castles are defined - where is the line drawn between what is a castle and what isn't?

Castle studies in England, Wales, and Scotland draws a distinction between castles and other types of fortifications. The burhs built by Alfred do have some relation to castles - indeed some later had castles built within them - but are typically treated as separate entities in the literature and have been since the early 20th century (summarised briefly in "The Origins of the Castle in England the Institute's Research Project"). Hillforts again are treated separately.

While the term castle is derived from Latin, I don't think that's a particular problem. Words change meaning over time through different usage and different context. The Latin derivation isn't coincidental of course. The medieval elite would often deliberately co-opt the Roman past, so blurring the line between castle and Roman fort isn't accidental. Castles were established within or just on the edges of Roman forts at Pevensey, Portchester, Chester, and Leicester.

I'm not familiar with Schuchhardt's work, though I see his 1931 book, Die Burg im Wandel der Weltgeschichte, is available online. I am unfortunately entirely reliant on Google Translate to work with German sources. It looks like an interesting read!

Transfer of ideas across languages can be much slower than amongst researchers with a shared language. There are at least regular conferences such Chateau Gaillard are an important forum for exchanging ideas. The bi-annual publication regularly contains papers in French, English, and German (I think I've seen other languages as well), and Burgen und Schlösser published by the German Castles Institute is primarily German-language but has included articles in English. It is worth noting that "castle scholarship has, with rare exceptions, been pursued within the confines of particular countries and regions. Broader geographical approaches are neglected". The same source notes that burhs weren't always large communal fortifications, an aspect which set them largely outside the somewhat porous definition of a castle, so there may be scope for more integration of burhs into discussion of castles. At this stage, I think we'd need sources which contextualise the historiography to guide the content of the article should such a change be made. Richard Nevell (talk) 10:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

There are endless discussions in the 6 archives, and the FAC, over the definition. Don't let's go there again - it's not really an "interesting issue", especially 5th time around. The article is written to cover a particular definition and scope, but of course other definitions exist. An article that tried to cover all of them would be a sprawling mess. It was decided years ago that people searching for "castle" were most likely to want European medieval castles etc, and this seems still correct to me. If people want Japanese castles, Celtic hillforts and so on, they will most likely use other search terms. Johnbod (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The problem with the article is that it implies that 1) Romans only built castellum in Britain or Germany, when they didn't. 2) That the Calingians were responsible for evolving the style of earlier Roman castellum into castles when they weren't. 3) That all aspects of castle architecture therefore come from 1 and 2 which all completely false.

First, the Romans built castellum all over Europe, the Levant and North Africa and therefore those structures and the terms used to describe them influenced more than just the English language. So to argue that what makes a "castle" limited to the history of the English language is a nonsensical, non historic argument. For example, in Spain, the word castillo also exists as a derivation of the Roman Castel and also applies to similar structures. And many early Islamic and Christian castles were built on top of older Roman or Visigothic ruins.

Which then leads to the second point that the Carolingians were not the main social organization and culture responsible for first building castles in Europe. As there are no Carolingian castles, since most of them are simply palaces based on old Roman style Basilicas and Villas. Again, the actual earliest history of the use of vassals and nobles to defend various regions with their own fortified residences are found in Spain, from Muslims and then Christians.

Thirdly the idea that these combinations of battlements, curtain walls, terrain and geography as part of castle architecture originated with the Carolingians based on Roman precedents is also false. Again, both Christians and Muslims in Spain have been using terrain and various ancient traditions of architecture including earlier Roman works to build Castles long before anything anywhere else in Europe. This includes castles on strategic terrain, such as hilltops and spurs, castles near rivers and so forth.

Suffice to say, if this is simply an issue of language and distinguishing the history and derivation of the English term "castle" then that is one thing. But to argue that this language derivation represents the complete history and extent of buildings in Europe with features called "castles" in English is simply dishonest.

Oldest and Largest castle in Europe:

Castle_of_Gormaz

Note that the wiki claims that Château de Doué-la-Fontaine is the oldest when there is nothing remaining that shows anything like what is being called a castle based on language or architecture.

Château de Doué-la-Fontaine

Hilltop Castle Spain based on earlier Roman and Celtiberian forts:

Xativa_Castle

Spanish Christian Castle:

Peñafiel_Castle

Another old Spanish Castle based on Roman and Muslim structures:

Castle_of_Almodóvar_del_Río Big-dynamo (talk) 15:10, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I can't see where the article says the things you claim. Please quote. Johnbod (talk) 16:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

The opening section of the page literally says the origin of castles lay in the disintegration that took place in the late Carolingian empire which led to the rise in feudal lords. "European-style castles originated in the 9th and 10th centuries, after the fall of the Carolingian Empire resulted in its territory being divided among individual lords and princes. These nobles built castles to control the area immediately surrounding them and the castles were both offensive and defensive structures: they provided a base from which raids could be launched as well as offered protection from enemies." Yet there is no citation nor example of any kind from the Carolingian or post Carolingian kingdoms that show this evolution of Castle type structures. Not to mention, later it goes on to state that the defining characteristic of a castle is being a residence of a noble or lord, but again, Carolingian palaces were based on the earlier Roman basilica, palatial or villa architecture and not fortified. So if there are scholars and experts that supposedly are the source of this claim, then where are the citations and examples? Because again, the earliest examples for the evolution of this kind of structure are not in Northern France and Germany, but in Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Big-dynamo (talk • contribs) 11:01, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the citations you are looking can be found in Castle#Origins (9th and 10th centuries) where more detail is given. The lead is a summary of the main body of the article, using necessarily broad strokes. The origin of castles is a complex topic with lots of uncertainty, and even the addition detail in the body doesn't address it in full. It could be a standalone article, but I'm not sure how much appetite there is for that (I certainly don't have time!). Richard Nevell (talk) 22:08, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Castles outside Europe?

This article is flawed because it is Euro-centric. It hardly mentions castles outside Europe. But there are castles everywhere: in the Middle East, Japan, China, Iran, India and in many other places and cultures. The article even lacks images of such castles. There are a few links to non-European castles in the "See also"-section, but this is not enough to justify that this article be called just "Castle". Either the name should be changed to "Castle (Europe)" or the article should at least dedicate a paragraph to castles in other continents, eg. as an introduction to other, more detailed articles. Loranchet (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
As a starter, I added a picture of Himeji, one of the most famous non-European castles.Loranchet (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

To repeat myself from last year:

There are endless discussions in the 6 archives, and the FAC, over the definition. Don't let's go there again - it's not really an "interesting issue", especially 5th time around. The article is written to cover a particular definition and scope, but of course other definitions exist. An article that tried to cover all of them would be a sprawling mess. It was decided years ago that people searching for "castle" were most likely to want European medieval castles etc, and this seems still correct to me. If people want Japanese castles, Celtic hillforts and so on, they will most likely use other search terms. Johnbod (talk) 19:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)