Talk:Castle

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Last Edit Summary[edit]

Sorry, I meant to say "pertinent" instead of "permanent".Curb Chain (talk) 19:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Etymology[edit]

The word is most certainly not Latin origin. The root of the word is 'cas' which has no meaning in Latin.
The preceding culture Latin inherited from and was built upon is Etruscan. They spoke the same language and lived the same culture as Hungarians. This has been proven by Alinei. Indeed, 'cas' -> 'kas' has a meaning in Hungarian: 'something that holds something'. Example: bee-hive -> méh-kas.
'Cas' in French also means the same: some sort of a thing that can hold other things, like a box. (Spanish: 'caso') Then the English 'case' 'casket' and 'basket' suddenly start to make sense. It may come from French but not coming from Latin.
But Latin supposed to be older than French and Spanish! Both French and Spanish supposedly evolved from Latin. Clearly not the case here. Also, how did these people speek before Latin came about? While the Etruscans were ruling the place?
The Etrusc was a 'Turan' culture, like Hungarian and Turk. Turan -> tyran -> Tyrrhenian (sea).
'Tyrant' comes from Latin tyrannus that comes from Greek turannos. Yes, there is a reason for this word and its meaning.
Now, according to these pseudo-scientists, this highly civilised and tyrannical culture did not leave anything behind language and culture wise. It is ALL coming from Latin. Really? Pull the other one now!
The Etrusc came from - Asia. Now, this MUST NOT BE the origin of the superior-to-all Western Culture! This is a good example how politics influences science.
(To clarify: just because Etrusc, ancient Turks, Hungarians etc. belong to the same language/cultural group they are not necessarily genetically related.)

Castle vs. Palace[edit]

Since, in Swedish, the term "slott" is used for both castles and palaces, and many Swedes do not know the difference, I am about to move a large number of articles about palaces in Sweden which have been named wrong as "castles", but where the building type definitely is not what is known as a castle in English, neither an original old one nor a more modern building obviously styled as one.

Any suggestions or comments before I do so in a day or two? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like a sensible thing to do; the confusion isn't entirely surprising. Is there a link between these palaces and castles in Sweden, perhaps one drawing on the styles of the other? Nev1 (talk) 01:13, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
They all have images on the list. Johnbod (talk) 03:49, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Many or most of them look like neither castles nor palaces in the normal English senses of those words but like mid-sized country houses, mostly from after 1600. I'd recommend just using the Swedish names, there's really no need to translate & give rise to these difficult issues of translation. There is the same issue with chateau and "schloss" in German (no doubt the words are related), and the great majority of those just use the native names. Many of the fortified ones are called "fästning" in Swedish, and "castle" should do for them if you like, and probably the smaller "fort" ones too. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
We have articles on schloss and chateau, I was thinking perhaps we should have one on slott. Nev1 (talk) 18:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I have taken steps in that direction - helpful idea! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 08:07, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
The confusion around this issue is due to scholarly work on the subject using the concept of a castle being different from a fortress because it was the residence of a ruler or lord. Yet most cultures throughout history have reserved their most prestigious residences for lords and rulers and more often than not they were fortified, this is especially true in the case of frontier zones between warring states and empires. It over simplifies the history of such structures and creates a false narrative that is not technically accurate. But until the scholarship changes or we use different references in the article that inaccuracy will persist. Then on top of that, the traditions of various European lords in adopting elements of fortress architecture into manor houses, estates and palaces also creates further confusion, because technically they aren't fortresses even though they incorporate fortress like elements. You see this in England with Gothic and Gothic Revival forms of architecture used in various estates and mansions, but similar elements exist across European architecture.Big-dynamo (talk) 16:19, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
I suspect you're not going to like my answer, but it is not the role of Wikipedia to redress what editors may feel are flaws in scholarly work. Nev1 (talk) 17:01, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, this trend in scholarship goes back to Ella Armitage, who went on to influence Alexander Hamilton Thompson and subsequently R. Allen Brown, who is extensively quoted here. But these scholars are almost exclusively focused on England and the Normans in the history of castles. (I got this from reading "The Idea of the Castle in Medieval England By Abigail Wheatley"). However, these scholars and this idea only arose in the 19th century, whereas if you go back to the medieval era, no such distinction actually existed and many fortress residences were called castles outside of England, primarily as a derivation of the Latin Castellum in the romance languages. Some examples are Gormaz Castle Spain, Castle of Trujillo Spain, Penafiel Castle Portugal, Loarre Castle Spain, Guimares Castle Portugal or Gaudix Alcazaba Spain. Big-dynamo (talk) 12:13, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm struggling to understand your point. Castles and palaces were the same, or that a castle was never a palace and vice versa? Or something else? Nev1 (talk) 12:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
My only point is that the distinguishing characteristic of a Castle as being a residence of a lord is a relatively new concept that came about in the 19th and 20th century. Prior to that this was not the case. Even though most frontier fortresses throughout history had a residence of a lord or noble of some sort be it a fortified palace or just a residence. Big-dynamo (talk) 13:35, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
So you would like the article to explain that the modern use of the word 'castle' does not necessarily reflect medieval usage? I have no objection to including that and there are certainly plenty of sources which say as much. Nev1 (talk) 13:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes. I think it does state that to some degree, but maybe some elaboration or rewording is required. In addition, I think the big piece that is missing on the 'feudal' nature of European society is the fact that it was 'feudal' because so many lords and nobles were constantly feuding with each other. You don't need a fortified residence as a noble unless you fear for being attacked by other nobles. The constant skirmishes and battles between lords and nobles fighting over land and territory is a big reason for such a concentration of such structures in Western Europe. Similarly the conflicts between Muslim and Christian in Spain and the Levant are a reason for a large concentration in these regions as well. Such structures reflect conflicts within and without a society more than simply a social structure. But overall the article in my opinion is too long and probably could be condensed because a lot of the paragraphs reiterate the same points.Big-dynamo (talk) 13:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Photographs[edit]

There seems to be too many photos of castles from England and France. Should there not be more from other countries?213.202.172.246 (talk) 19:58, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Especially Central and Eastern European, Scandinavian and Arabian ones should be added/replace some current castles and perhaps one or two early forts from the New World. Cheers Horst-schlaemma (talk) 00:23, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Any particular suggestions for changes? Hchc2009 (talk) 02:07, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Spain has 2500 castle sites ranging from the early Islamic era to the gunpowder era. Many of these early Medieval castles predate those in Christian Europe and have all the defensive elements: towers, Keeps, curtain walls, hilltop location, etc. Couple of examples:[[1]][[2]][[3]][[4]]

Big-dynamo (talk) 03:06, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Eastern Fortifications[edit]

There is some very bad language in this article referencing Eastern/Arab fortifications.

For example:

While castles were used to hold a site and control movement of armies, in the Holy Land some key strategic positions were left unfortified. Castle architecture in the East became more complex around the late 12th and early 13th centuries after the stalemate of the Third Crusade (1189–1192). Both Christians and Muslims created fortifications, and the character of each was different. Saphadin, the 13th-century ruler of the Saracens, created structures with large rectangular towers that influenced Muslim architecture and were copied again and again, however they had little influence on Crusader castles.

This implies that square towers in Eastern/Islamic fortresses only started with Saladin which is blatantly false. It also implies that the crusaders 'introduced' complex military architecture to the east which is also false as such architecture originated in the east in the first place. Both square and circular towers have been found in the East for thousands of years and in Islamic/Arab fortresses since the beginning of Islam as they inherited their traditions from the East. The earliest Islamic Castles in Spain featured square towers going back to the 7th century and the Islamic Mosque at Samarra famously has circular towers. Can we remove the passage or update it so it is more accurate?Big-dynamo (talk) 16:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Big-dynamo, personally I'm not reading the passage you've highlighted in quite the same way. I wouldn't have read that as suggesting that the crusaders introduced anything; rather, just that the architecture "became more complex" as a result of the ongoing tensions. I'm also not seeing anything there stating that the square towers only began with Saphadin, or that there were only square towers and no round ones, just that the ruler in question built square towers which were influential in the local Muslim architecture, but which didn't influence the Crusader castles. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:43, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Square towers were built before Saladin is my point. Saying that makes the implication that this is 'new' influence on Islamic architecture, when it is not. At best it is misleading and at worst it is totally incorrect. If the article is not going to give a broad understanding of the trends in military architecture from before the rise of 'castles' in Europe then we should avoid such flimsy one liners and passages because they are woefully inadequate. In the region that the crusaders entered you had ancient Persian castles, Roman fortresses, Islamic fortresses/castles, Armenian castles and so forth with all sorts of styles of military architecture all predating Saladin. This region was an area that was the focus point of intense warfare for thousands of years and certainly most military architectural styles were not new.Big-dynamo (talk) 01:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Case in point. The fortified palace of the Aljaferia was built in the late 11th century. During the same time period as the Norman invasion. It was based on earlier fortresses in Baghdad and Cordoba, like the Great Mosque of Cordova and Al-Ukhaidir_Fortress. Big-dynamo (talk) 12:57, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Eurocentrism[edit]

  • Most of the article is about the Castles in Europe. Not much about other regions of the world like China, India, Persia etc. This article in its current shape should have a title like "Castles in Europe". The article 'Castle' should be rewritten. ماني a.k.a. [[User:Mani1]] (talk) 06:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The word 'castle' has a very specific meaning in English, it is narrowly defined as a building combining the functions of a royal or noble palace, and a military fortress. In most other languages there's no word with this precise meaning. For example its cognate in Spanish, 'castillo' is also frequently used to refer to sites that would be called forts in English, and its French cognate 'chateau' is the opposite, referring to any grand residence regardless of fortification.

If there are specific sites outside of Europe you have in mind that fall within this scope, then I can't see anyone objecting to their addition.

Then you haven't read the archives here, or the extended discussions at the FAC! Johnbod (talk) 14:51, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Because even if you (User Man1) can find examples in other countries or languages in which there is a fortified residence of a noble, but also used as a military headquarters, the small group of Eurocentric editors who claim custody of this article will dig in their heels and claim the word "castle" has some special esoteric meaning that only they, as true castle scholars, can understand. Any quoted sources will be dismissed as too broad or too specialized, but not specialized in the right way. - Boneyard90 (talk) 13:22, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Ultimately it just makes sense to keep different traditions like the shiro (Japanese castle), perhaps the closest, in their own articles (not all of which yet exist). The subject is big enough as it is. Johnbod (talk) 14:04, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
It is Eurocentric in the sense that this combination of fortress and royal residence are new when they are not. All civilizations and cultures have had such structures since thousands of years ago. Case in point the early images of fortified palace walls in Egyptian temples and tombs as a symbol of royalty. In Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Armenia, Islamic North Africa, Islamic Spain, Central Asia and Rome you had similar structures and these are just a few cultures who directly influenced such structures in Europe. Unfortunately, that is not so much a wikipedia issue, as it is an issue with the scholarship around such structures within the larger academic community. So we cannot expect wikipedia to go against current scholarship in that regard. Big-dynamo (talk) 15:37, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

This article should be about castles in general. The current article as-is should be moved to the redirect page at European castle. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 20:38, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

  • @107.3.44.127: It is original research to act on "a castle is defined as X, and this article should discuss structures that fall under this definition". This article should discuss structures referred to in English-language reliable sources as "castles", regardless of whether they fit whatever super-narrow (and unsourced) definition of the word "castle" you want to apply. Hijiri 88 (やや) 07:58, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
  • @Hijiri88: Who is that IP that you pinged? Anyhow, this article shouldn't explicitly limit castles to "Europe and the Middle East during the Middle Ages" or outright claim that they are solely "a European innovation". This claim that the word "castle" has such a difinitive meaning in English is invalid; it's used just as willy-nilly as castillo, château, and gusuku. This article should be broadened or moved to a Europe-specific title and a general article created. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 06:09, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
  • The global and general article is Fortification, to which "Stronghold", "Fortress", and "Fort" redirect. These are the appropriate way to go - "fort" is the normal English term used in Africa, India and elsewhere (and Indian forts can be closer to the castle definition than most), as well as in Europe outside the Middle Ages. The article is not bad, on a quick look, but can be improved considerably. This article is already 95K bytes long, and could not fit additional global/all periods material at the same depth. Johnbod (talk) 12:12, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
@Sturmgewehr88: The second user to comment in this thread. The indentation is messy, and they didn't sign their post, but they are the one who wrote "The word 'castle' has a very specific meaning in English...". That said, I highly doubt pinging them made a difference. I only did so to indicate to whom I was responding.
@Johnbod: I don't want to go into detail (I am sure Sturmgewehr88 is more than capable), but you are mistaken. In English-language historiography on Japan, the word "castle" is always used for a particular type of structure that flourished throughout Japan in the Sengoku period (in Japanese called shiro or -jō). "Fort" is usually a translation of a different Japanese word (toride), although it is sometimes (rarely enough) used to refer to much earlier, and unrelated, structures that were also called shiro that were built in northern Japan. The same is no doubt true of other cultures, as is indicated by the broad attestation of the phrase "Indian castle" ([5]).
Hijiri 88 (やや) 13:42, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Most of those actually seem to relate to North America. Instead of 3k, there are 14K for the same search with "fort". The same is not true of other cultures, see Forts in India, large numbers of which are larger than most in Europe or Japan - eg Amer Fort, Agra Fort, Red Fort etc. Johnbod (talk) 13:56, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
No, I included the -"New York" bit to eliminate the North American results, but even if they did refer to "Native American castles" (?) as opposed to bona fide castles in India, this would have the same effect on the argument. The fact that the phrase "Indian fort" also exists and gets more GBooks hitsis irrelevent: there are forts in Europe as well. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
There certainly are European forts, but they are not castles, nor are they covered here. Many Indian ones are fortified princely residences, very similar to castles, but they are usually called forts. I'm not sure what your point is. Johnbod (talk) 22:45, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONNAME, the article should cover the subject of the definition of "castle" as used by widely recognized authoritative sources (dictionaries and other encyclopedias, in this case); stating opinions and google results aren't very relevant. --A D Monroe III (talk) 22:38, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

You are right of course. That is why I think the article should not arbitrarily cut out non-European structures that are always (or in some cases often) referred to as "castles" because of the opinions of a few Wikipedia editors, even if these opinions are shared by a small number of reliable sources. Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
To clarify, if the great majority of these word-definition (tertiary) RSs include castles outside of the European influence, then that's what the article must cover, per COMMONNAME. If the great majority are Eurocentric, then this article must be also. So, the only thing we need to do is list such sources. We only need to discuss further if the sources aren't consistent. --A D Monroe III (talk) 22:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

The Castle of Euryalos in Sicily ( History, Antecedents)[edit]

Outside Syracuse by Dionysius the Elder and which was one of the most powerful fortresses of ancient times.--87.21.109.147 (talk) 16:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Photo deletion[edit]

I added some more photos from castles in Portugal, yet they were deleted. Maybe I exaggerated in the number, so this time I will post only 2 photos. This article only shows English and French castles, there are other countries in Europe with a big amount of them as well, so I will give my contribution. I hope they don't get deleted this time, for the sake of fairness. Thanks! PedroLopFonMarAlves (talk) 06:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Of course those photos should be there, since the many of old Castles in Spain and Portugal are older than most examples given, especially in Britain and France. Case in point the Aljaferia which goes back to a time prior to the Norman invasion of Britain, which means prior to most castles in England or France. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Big-dynamo (talkcontribs) 23:43, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

the castle[edit]

many people like to go to castles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.68.120.206 (talk) 13:48, 26 May 2016 (UTC)