Talk:Coast Salish people and salmon

This article was nominated for deletion on 8 April 2016. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Fisheries and Fishing Low‑importance

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Canada: British Columbia Low‑importance

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This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Term 2. Further details are available on the course page.

Comments on the Outline from Rosie

Fishing with Rod may not be a sufficiently authoritative source. Is the UBC Aboriginal Fisheries in British Columbia paper going to be your main source of historical information? Has it been published? (It looks like a journal article but there's no link to a journal.)

I remember that there's a small library book about the foods traditionally used by BC First Nations - it's in the UBC X̱wi7x̱wa library branch.

Do you need to make a clear distinction between historical practices and the modern ones?

Will you separately discuss the DFO initiatives to promote First Nations fisheries and include them in commercial fisheries?

You don't describe the links you will create to and from your page, nor how this page will fit into the other pages about Coast Salish and about BC First Nations. If you do a Google search that includes 'link:wikipedia.org' you'll specifically find the Wikipedia pages that mention a topic.

Rosieredfield (talk) 23:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ruth on the outline This sounds like a really interesting page, but you haven't mentioned whether this page is needed or the searches you have done to ensure you won't be duplicating things already on Wikipedia. Make sure you do a really thorough search before getting too suck in to creating the page! RuthVancouver (talk) 21:11, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Alan

Overall organization and content:

-The flow of page is excellent, but there is a lot of information and it is not easy to read when they all put together under one sections. I suggest that subheading for History and Policies could be used as independent sections because those are important information and using subheading people can just jump into that section on the top of the page. Also, although this page is not specifically focusing on the biological stuff about salmons, I suggest to add some general information about salmon (their diet, average size etc.). More pictures should be added to make the whole page more easily understandable (for example, map of where they live, pictures of salmons and Coast Salish People).

-The point of view of the page is genuinely neutral and have no bias.

-the overall information is sufficiently on the page. I would recommend to add more background information (talk more about where do Coast Salish people live in, why are they called Coast Salish people, etc.) and some basic information about salmond.

-Specific term are properly linked to external page for more information.

-suitable references are sufficiently and correctly provided.

Suggestion from Ruth and Rosie addressed

-Fishing with Rod was removed

Suggestion from Ruth and Rosie NOT addressed

-DFO initiatives is not separately discussed

-No link to other wiki page are created.

Integration with other Wikipedia pages:

-a section should be added to link this page to other related wiki page.

-there is no link on other wiki page to this wiki page.

-I clicked on the 'what links here' tool and no page are linked to this page.

Standard Wikipedia page layout and organization:

-A summary section should be added at the end of the page.

-General heading are used and the whole page are well organized, but some information could be further divided into different subheadings (history and policy)

-Table of contents was presented.

-References section was presented in an appropriate format.

Writing quality:

-Excellent writing skills.

-All of the terms were well explained.

Illustrations:

-the overall and in-depth information are sufficient that we can have a better understanding of Coast Salish People and salmons after reading the wiki page. Again, just little suggestion that more background information about salmon and Coast Salish People could be added.

-Although it is not discussing the place, but it would be better to add the map of Banff National Park and add indication of the areas covered within the management project.

-Caption was presented on the graph and was informative, but more graph should be added to the page.

-Overall, the topic is interesting and sufficient information are presented. To improve the wiki page, background information and pictures of salmons and Coast Salish People should be added on the page. In addition, more work could be done on the overall layout and organization of the page to make it more readable.

ML Chau123 (talk) 15:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Braydan

The section seems to be presented in a well-organized manner, but the title for the second section might be better titled "Legislation and Policies". The point of view is kept neutral, which is difficult in some sections but accomplished. Lots of information is included, and I couldn't think of anything I was still wondering about. However, more links could be used to help readers unfamiliar with the subject of fishing (net-fishing, stone-fishing, canneries, etc). You did well adding a variety of sources, but there are some repeats, and you can format the sources to reflect this by going to cite>re-use tab. You seem to have addressed much of the previous concerns, but adding information on the necessity of the page and pages that will link to your page would be an asset. The layout is appropriate for the section as to where it fits into the Salish Peoples page. For the most part grammar/spelling is well done, minor thing - make sure you don't switch tense. Technicalities are explained very well. Good use of images for the topic with appropriate captions and attributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Braydan Pastucha (talk • contribs) 22:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Russell.

Looking great so far. You've got a lot of information on this page, and it's all been put together in a very logical and easy to read way. You could consider adding in a few more links to some of the fishing techniques you mention. You could also consider mentioning that we have 5 different species of salmon here in BC. I'm not sure how relevant it would be but I imagine the First Nations have different methods and locations for catching each species, or they may have value some particular species over the others. You could also consider expanding on the First Salmon Ceremony that you mentioned, you explain what it the significance of it was but not what they did during the ceremony.

If I understand correctly, you're adding this to the Coast Salish page? If so you might want to consider combining it with the "Diet" section that already exists on the page.

I also noticed a few small mistakes in your grammar:

"Some communities in Vancouver Island" should be "Some communities on Vancouver Island".

"Although they traditionally considered as Artisanal fishing," should be "Although traditionally considered as Artisanal fishing,".

"and specially salmon were seen" should be "and especially salmon were seen".

"Many refused to give up their fishers or buy fisheries licenses and even insists that the money for the licences belonged to them". This sentence doesn't make any sense to me.

You also have a few issues with tenses being kept consistent.

All pretty easy things to fix, should be good after that!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Russell926 (talk • contribs) 04:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review by Annette

- Great content and source material

- For a Wikipedia article you should paraphrase instead of directly quoting for short quotes, even if you are explaining a specific process. I think this will improve readability.

- Excellent visuals!

- Proofread for minor errors (some rephrasing would help readability) and tense switching (you mostly have past tense so perhaps stick to that)

- Expand on the point you make about fishing licenses. You mention that “licences weren’t available to First Nation fishers until 1924, when most non-Native fishers have already obtained theirs.” It would be interesting if you could add a sentence or two about the direct impact that had. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asolo8 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 22 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rosie

Writing: The text has LOTS of grammar and syntax errors - often one in each sentence! I'm not going to document them all here but we could go through the text face-to-face if you like, or you could have a friend who writes well help you edit it. There's also way too much use of direct quotes; try to paraphrase instead,

Information and organization: Originally your page was going to be about fisheries. Under this title it would have been appropriate to discuss fish other than salmon. Maybe someone else can come along and add other fish to the page. What's here is all about fishing; this would have been appropriate for a 'Fisheries' page, but not for a 'Salmon' page. What about eating the salmon? How did they cook and eat the salmon? Did they have methods to preserve salmon for later consumption? You describe salmon as resources for wealth and trade, but there's nothing about this in the rest of the article. What did they trade, and who with? Distinguish between traditional fishing methods and modern ones (keep tenses straight while doing this). 'Cultural significance' is mainly about the cultural significance of the fishing practices - can you expand it to consider other cultural aspects of salmon? Are salmon in totem poles? Did they have traditional ways of representing salmon in carvings?

Rosieredfield (talk) 09:33, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ruth

Overall a good page but with a little bit of work it will be a great page.

Clarifications and edits needed:

What does "gift-bearing relatives" mean?

What is the DFO, what does it stand for? Explain and/or make it a link or just replace it with Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

“The fishing practices and methods of the Coast Salish remain tied to the Salmon as a cultural symbol and a source of respect.” Sentence seems out of place.

“The fishing system was also maintained through cultural practices which ensured the sustainment of fishing populations like the First Salmon Ceremony did”, poor sentence construction. Also what is the first salmon ceremony?

Make ‘canning’ a link? -> Canning

Change the wording of “hardly low-scale”, right now it sounds almost sarcastic! Change wording to something more exact and professional sounding.

Your references section is missing its title.

Overall: There are more typos and grammatical mistakes that need to be corrected. The flow of your page needs to be improved as well. Avoid disconnected sentences, make sure they fit into the paragraph, section and ultimately the page.

External links: Avoid having external links in the main body of your page, put them at the bottom, see Wikipedia editing guidelines:Wikipedia:External_links. Rather than having external links, put more detail in the text. Put your external links in a section at the bottom of your page called External Links.

RuthVancouver (talk) 23:07, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

April 5, 2016 (Becky)

Updates we have made:

1 Not using “fishing with rod” as source. UBC Aboriginal Fisheries in British Columbia as source but information will be from it citations which includes citations from published journals from Douglas C. Harris from UBC Faculty of Law in 2008 & 2010. As well as articles published from UBC Press and University of Toronto Press. Also resources from official website for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, online case study of R. V. Sparrow.
2 Our focus for project is to add section onto the “Coast Salish People” wiki page for salmon, how it is fished and how government intervention has affected Coast Salish People and their access to salmon. We will not focus on DFO initiatives or how to promote First Nation fisheries or historical/modern practices, but will try to provide links in section for people to access if they want to look into it. Because our section will be added to Coast Salish People wikipage, we don’t think it is necessary to talk about their background information, where they live, summary, map of Banff National Park, graph, First Nations salmon ceremony, etc, as this is already provided on the page. We can definitely add more pictures as suggested.
3. From our research there is very limited information on the connection between Coast Salish People and salmon on wiki. Especially on the Coast Salish People wikipage, where there isn’t even a section for “fishing or salmon” but has section for diet where it mentions this: “Salmon and other fish were staples. There was kakanee, a freshwater fish in the Lake Washington and Lake Sammamish watersheds.” As well the “Fishing” wikipage, there is no subheading or section on Aboriginal Fishing or First Nations fishing. It was not mentioned at all on this page. I have added First Nations People Fishing section under Cultural Impact which links to Coast Salish Peoples page where our section for salmon will be posted in.
4. As suggested we have changed our second heading to legislation and policies. We believe that our heading and sub headings are sufficient as we are adding our section onto a page that is already established on Wikipedia. Most people use Wikipedia as a fast reference and a quick source, a place for direct and basic information not for researching or in-depth analysis so we tried our best to keep it concise and informative.
5. As suggested we added into the introduction the 5 different species of salmon here in BC. Also added picture of salmon.
6. The sentences highlighted with grammar mistakes have been fixed. The sentence that doesn’t seem to make sense have been altered hopefully to provide a clearer understanding. As advised, we went over our work and rearrange certain sentences and phrases to improve readability as well changing to past tense and paraphrasing.
7. Yes our page main focus is on salmon but it is closely related and easily to fishing and other types of fishes. We can change our heading to “Fishing” and under this heading sub divide into “salmon” which is what our focus is on and if someone else comes along they are welcome to add onto the “Fishing” section for other fishes.
8. We did not have a section for diet of salmon before, we now have added a section for this which includes how salmon is cooked, eaten, and preservation.
9. Under cultural significance we expanded to importance of salmon on totem pole as well as carving of salmon onto canoes, and salmon on traditional clothing, songs, dances, etc.
10. “Gift-bearing relative” is explained.
11. DFO is expanded and linked
12. Made canning a link
13. Reference section title added
14. External links section added

Comments from No such user

I understand this is a class assignment, and I apologize if I interrupted the educational process by making some intermediate edits and fixes, but hey, this is Wikipedia. (I spotted the article after Becky made some mess by making technically wrong page moves/pastes, now fixed with a kind help of Nyttend). I created a WP:LEAD section, which should summarize (serve as an abstract to) the article, but I admit I did it rather hastily, so some extension and refinement is called for (Legislation section should be also summarized). Per Wikipedia:Summary style, the topic needs an overview in the main Coast Salish peoples article, but I had to revert the wholesale copy/paste as way too long. In that article, a short section "Fishing" or "Fishing traditions" should be created, again summarizing this article (just repeating its lead section, more or less), and using {{main|Coast Salish people and salmon}} to link to this article.

Overall, I think this is a decent article with an interesting topic, if a bit elusive to define and title succinctly. The current title "Coast Salish people and salmon" is maybe not ideal, but it is good enough for the time being. It is well-written (with ) and researched, with occasional weak spot. For example, the "Fishing licenses" section meanders from 1993 (did I get the year right, it didn't have any temporal references?) to 1890s, and back to the present time (?). It would IMO be better to use prose format for the entire "Legislation and policies" section to describe how and why it evolved, rather than mixed timeline/prose. No such user (talk) 12:10, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Final comments from Rosie

Despite several reminders, you forgot to create links from other pages. That's why the page is now tagged as an 'Orphan' page. I've added a couple, so the page won't be deleted.

Rosieredfield (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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