Talk:Colette

Part Black?

http://www.sfgate.com/books/article/Naughty-Colette-the-Early-Years-New-2940712.php Some sources say Colette was part Black, maybe 1/16th. She is mentioned like a literary role model in the book "Caucasia" by biracial novelist Danzy Senza. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chumley41 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

In one of Colette's memoirs she mentions that her great-great-grandmother on her mother's side was "a free African woman of color." Her maternal grandfather was sometimes referred to as The Quadroon. Therefore Colette was 1/16 black. Younggoldchip (talk) 17:50, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

which memoir was that? 188.30.43.167 (talk) 18:16, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Probably either SIDO or MY MOTHER'S HOUSE.

Younggoldchip (talk) 00:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Untitled

Would it be appropriate that someone would add a spoiler alert under her writings chapter, regarding the revealing of the ending of her book "The Last of Cheri"? Thanks, MTR.

List of her works in French?

What is the point of that? It has to be in English and perhaps in the parenthesis a French original title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.12.37 (talk) 13:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Up for Discussion: Sexuality

I'm brand new, so I don't want to just dive in and start editing the article. I do think it could use some tidying up, though. First of all, near the end of the "Music hall career, affairs with women" section, it says, "Colette's sexuality is not really as confusing as it may appear. She seems to have instinctively preferred men, with her three long marriages and numerous heterosexual affairs." The first sentence seems unnecessary and I would cut it. The second one does not seem neutral to me. I think that unless there is a quote somewhere out there in which Colette comes right out and says, "I prefer men," then it's a bit odd to say of a person who had relationships with multiple women (in the face of serious social and legal repercussions) that she "instinctively preferred men". Mind you, I am not trying to make the case that it should read that "she preferred women, but societal pressures forced her to carry on mostly with men." I simply think that her various marriages and affairs should be listed and left at that, and readers may interpret the data as they please. On a related note, I think it would feel more organized if her personal life and her career had separate sections. The way it's divided up now "music hall career, affairs with women" followed by "second marriage, affair with stepson" feels muddy to me. Is there no standardized way to organize biographical information? You know, "Important Works", "Early Career", "Family Life", and so on? Any advice/comments would be lovely. Thank you! Persnip (talk) 15:26, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

she didn't have 'numerous heterosexual affairs' - she definitely had 3, with August Heriot, Bertrand de Jouvenel and Georges Kessel. Then there is a possible involvement with Sylvain Bonmariage and the tale of her eloping with her music teacher as a teenager, which may or may not be true. Numerically, her heterosexual and lesbian affairs are roughly equal. I cannot speak for which she preferred. 188.30.43.167 (talk) 18:12, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

"A possible involvement with Sylvain Bonmariage" occurred only in his dreams. There is no evidence for it at all, although his writings do reveal that he was obsessed with her. As for the gossipy claim that as a teenager she eloped with her music teacher, it's unlikely. She grew up in a bourgeois family with a protective mother, in a small-minded and rigidly conventional community. A loss of virginity would have been cataclysmic. She met M. Willy when she was seventeen, and almost immediately was besotted with him. In her memoir My Apprenticeship, and in the autobiographical novel The Vagabond, she is the naive country girl essentially victimized by a brilliant, amoral man of the world--M. Willy.

Younggoldchip (talk) 16:52, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Colette's Bisexuality

Actually there is strong evidence for the claim that Colette was a bisexual who preferred men. This is what Judith Thurman (Colette's major biographer in modern times) believed and stated in Secrets of the Flesh: A Life of Colette. Colette herself stated in My Apprenticeship, a memoir of her first marriage, that she was besottedly in love with M. Willy and that they had a strong physical bond. Thurman mentions that even after their divorce, Colette and her ex-husband shared an emotional closeness and would often meet for sexual trysts at hotels. By her own recollections, and those of her husbands (as in Maurice Goudeket's memoir Close To Colette), her three marriages were long, intense, and unambiguously sexual. Colette's novel The Shackle is a lightly fictionalized account of her obsessive love and desire for her second husband, Henri de Jouvenel.

Anyone who tried to make the case that Colette was primarily a lesbian by studying her works would run into difficulties. Her book The Pure and the Impure expresses the viewpoint that male homosexuals are genuinely and authentically indifferent to women, while lesbians often make their choice out of unhappy experiences with men and in a sense remain in thrall to men--because they continue to feel fear of them. In one of her poignant essays, she presents the female lovers in their bed as "hiding out." When The Pure and the Impure was reprinted in the '70's, some lesbian readers did not greet it happily.

Biuographer Judith Thurman believed that, in contrast to Colette's passionate marriages, her lesbian affairs sometimes had elements of calculation. She seems to have milked the relationship with the Marquise de Belboeuf ("Missy") for reasons of publicity, as in the notorious kiss they shared in a music hall sketch. Nor were her lesbian affairs numerous.They definitely happened, but biographers like Genevieve Dormann believe it's significant that they were heavily outweighed by her marriages and heterosexual affairs. Nor could one make the argument that Colette hid her true inclinations because of social disapproval. Again according to Thurman, in the social and literary circles in which she moved, lesbian affairs were not only accepted but chic. Younggoldchip (talk) 21:43, 16 January 2010 (UTC)younggoldchip

I can’t speak for whether Colette’s lesbian affairs were sometimes calculated, whether she had more affairs with men than women, or whether she preferred men. But I would challenge the claim that she her lesbian affairs were not ‘very numerous’. She had affairs with Georgie Raoul-Duval, Missy de Morny and Josephine Baker( see their Wikipedia pages ) , Lily de Meme, Natalie Clifford Barney,Musidora and Renee Hammon ( see Terry Castle’s LRB review of Judith Thurman’s biography) and Marlene Dietrich ( see Maria Riva’s book on her mother, Dietrich). The LRB review also mentions liaisons with ‘some of’ Willy’s mistresses, and as far as I know, out of the above women, only Raoul-Duval was his mistress, so this may indicate some more. In addition, the Autostraddle review of the Keira Knightley biopic also mentions her ‘sapphic teenage dalliances’, but I don’t know if it’s accurate about this or not. If my sources are correct, she had at least eight lesbian affairs, and possibly more. 188.30.34.219 (talk) 20:20, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Having read Thurman’s bio, I’ll revise my comment. Terry Castle’s review misled me r.e. Renee Hamon, since according to she and Colette do not seem to have had a affair according to Judith Thurman, who I feel is more reliable, although Francis and Gontier say they did. However, Thurman reports the possibility that Colette had lesbian ‘amities de pensionnaire in Saint-Sauveur’,as she describes Claudine having, and Colette’s glbtq archive entry notes that in ‘Sido’ she describes her ‘first experience with lesbian feelings’ (their words) ,which occurred when she was eleven. As well as a possible lesbian ‘dalliance or two in Paris’ ( the earlier joint biographers Claude Francis and Fernande Gontier give Carolina Otero, Marguerite Moreno, Augusta Holmes, Polaire, Claude Chauviere, Germaine Beaumont, Therese Robert, Annie de Pene, Helene Picard, Germaine Patat, the princesse de Polignac and ‘Eva Palmer, as Colette’s possible female lovers throughout her life, but Thurman is sceptical of many of these) before her first confirmed lesbian affair with Georgie Raoul-Duval. Thurman also mentions that Colette possibly later had affairs with Lucie Delarue-Mardrus and Meg Villars.

I gather from Thurman’s biography that Colette’s male lovers, aside from her three husbands, were Bertrand de Jouvenel, August Heriot and Georges Kessel, making six altogether. Allowing for the possibility that many of Francis and Gontier’s suggestions were untrue, Colette still seems to have had more than six female lovers (Thurman’s suggestions of Georgie Raoul-Duval, Missy de Morny, Lily de Reme, Musidora, Natalie Clifford Barney, and possibly the aforementioned Meg and Lucie. In addition, Josephine Baker, alleged by Jean-Claude Baker, who Baker considered as one of her own children, in his book ‘Josephine Baker: The Hungry Heart’, and Marlene Dietrich, alleged by her daughter Maria Riva in her book ‘Marlene Dietrich’, altogether making seven, or possibly nine.)This makes me sceptical of the statements that they were supposedly ‘heavily outweighed by her marriages and heterosexual affairs’ and not ‘numerous’. 94.197.12.104 (talk) 16:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

also, Gontier's bio says she possibly ran off with her music teacher at sixteen, meaning that perhaps she had 7 lovers of each sex. 92.41.139.46 (talk) 14:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

another possible female lover is Tamara de Lempicka 188.30.43.167 (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

even more details-

the music teacher was possibly female

she made unrequited overtures to both Catherine Pozzi and Jeanne de Caillavet 188.29.225.110 (talk) 21:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

she was also unrequitedly in love with Misia Sert https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1980/03/06/hostess-with-the-mostest/ 94.197.146.225 (talk) 21:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

so 7 or perhaps 11 lesbian affairs, and 3 more unrequited attachments 94.197.146.225 (talk) 21:15, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

she also may have had an affair with classmate Gabrielle Duchemin at at school per Francis and Gontier 94.197.146.225 (talk) 21:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

8 or 11 as Eva Palmer-Sikelianos's biographer Artemis Leontis cites Colette as her lover 92.41.135.214 (talk) 19:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

These weird speculations about "possible female lovers" are beyond bizarre. Almost all of the names are not only unproven but unlikely. Throwing them at the wall like sticky strands of spaghetti, and hoping that something will stick, is not the way reality works. Didn't anyone notice how often the words "possible" and "possibly" crop up? Or the parade of unreliable narrators? For example, Marlene Dietrich's daughter despised her mother, and in her memoir enjoyed saddling her with charges of promiscuity with famous people, false or true. Josephine Baker, to French writers, was an endlessly fascinating love goddess embracing virtually everybody. How many biographers spice up their subjects' lives by claiming affairs with celebrities? The French certainly do. Weasel claims like "She made unrequited overtures..." "...she was unrequitedly in love with..." "...so-and-so may have happened..." underline how obsessively commenters want to "own" a famous person no matter how unfounded their information.

Younggoldchip (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Rename Colette to ... and create a Disambig page here

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:49, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Colette → Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette —

A quick look at [1], seems to indicate that there are many people with the name Colette in Wikipedia. My proposal is to move this page to some other name, perhaps Sidonie-Gabrielle Colette (although the target name really doesn't matter)? I would then like to convert Colette to a disambiguation page, with people's name perhaps split to Colette (given name)? Feinoha ^{Talk, My master} 00:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC which the novelist appears to be. Lots of pages containing the word "Colette" aren't a good reason to move this page since they are not legitimate contents of a dab page per WP:PTM and MOS:DABNAME. However, if you feel I'm wrong, create the dab pages first and then request the move. — AjaxSmack 23:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Monsieur Willy

I think Colette's first husband, Monsieur Willy (Gauthier-villars), would have gotten quite a shock by the portion of this article which describes him as "bisexual." Willy was one of the most notorious skirt-chasing philanderers of the Belle Epoque. This is described in numerous biographies of Colette, including Judith Thurman's Secrets of the Flesh, Genevieve Dormann's and Margaret Crosland's biographies and several others. According to them, he had a ravenous appetite for many and varied women. But there is no record at all of him having homosexual affairs. Younggoldchip (talk) 15:11, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Estate

>"During the war, Colette converted her husband's Saint-Malo estate into a hospital for the wounded, and was made a Chevalier of the Legion of Honour in 1920."

Are these two things related -- she received the award because she turned her house into a hospital? Rissa, Guild of Copy Editors (talk) 17:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Dancehalls

>"Colette went to work in the music halls of Paris...."

Music halls are defined as a form of British entertainment. Either the term used here should be changed to something else, or the definition of "music halls" needs to drop the British part. Rissa, Guild of Copy Editors (talk) 17:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Daughter

>"According to one writer, 'Colette had a poor relationship with her daughter, Bel-Gazou.'[1]

Is it possible to add more information to this, especially in view of Colette's relationship with her other daughter? This one sentence is a whole paragraph stuck out there on its own. I think it would be more interesting and informative for our readers if more information was added. What form did this take, how did it affect them? Rissa, Guild of Copy Editors (talk) 17:57, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Colette only had one daughter, Bel-Gazou, her only child. 188.30.43.167 (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Life with Cocteau

>"Their relationship and life is vividly depicted in their books."

Which ones? Rissa, Guild of Copy Editors (talk) 18:29, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Idyllic natural tales

>"Her themes can be roughly divided into idyllic natural tales...."

Does this mean pastoral'? Or something else? Rissa, Guild of Copy Editors (talk) 18:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Confusing and missing citations

I found much of this article difficult to understand. I made copy-editing changes to it but there are parts that need more detail. I think the basic layout is okay, it just needs clarification and citations, especially "Legacy" which has no citations at all.

The part after her death that includes the Broadway production of "Gigi" etc, should be moved to "Legacy," and the mention there of her personal life moved to "Continued writings." The "Gigi" section has too much information about Audrey Hepburn and should be cut. I can do this later this week but I thought I should give other people a chance to comment. I can't do anything about the much-needed citations, however. Rissa, Guild of Copy Editors (talk) 19:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Best remembered - anglo-centric?

Is this true? Best remembered for Gigi by who? Americans? Citation needed Shinykatie (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd say that Cheri, Break of Day, The Vagabond, and the Claudines are also well known. 188.30.43.167 (talk) 18:15, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Green Wheat, The Pure and the Impure, Sido, 92.41.135.214 (talk) 19:43, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Flanner critique

Caution is needed in assuming that Flanner’s critique of Collette’s work is her own opinion. Flanner wrote for the New Yorker, and editor Harold Ross warned her, ‘I don’t want to know what you think of French politics and culture, I want to know what the French think’. Flanner was, for example, when free of New Yorker restraint, tart about de Beauvoir’s ‘The Second Sex’. A Lesbian, Flanner was nonetheless no doctrinaire feminist. 2001:8003:22CF:AD00:75D9:930:EB61:CDA9 (talk) 06:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

I think Flanner chose to write about the Pure and the Impure, possibly an intro for it, admiringly, and she was a friend of Colette. 94.197.149.22 (talk) 20:00, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

others who praised or were influenced by her

praised by Anita Brookner, May Sarton (in Miss Stevens Hears the Mermaids Singing), helped Alison Bechdel realised her sexuality as detailed in Fun Home, where she speaks admiringly of Colette's writing, Erica Jong praised her, as did Anais Nin, Violette Leduc felt she needed to write more openly an boldly about sex than Colette did. Mauriac felt she ought to have had his Nobel Prize, Proust, Valery, Francis Jammes, Natalie Barney, Anna de Noailles praised her. Strong influence on Beauvoir;s Second Sex, Sartre loved her writing, Beauvoir said she was the only great French woman writer. JK Rowling also a fan 94.197.149.22 (talk) 20:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

also quoted by first American lesbian mayor when she came out - her article was titled 'of this pure but irregular passion' from Colette's profile of the Ladies of Llangollen in The Pure an the Impure. Viriginia Woolf really admired her too. 94.197.149.22 (talk) 20:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Edna o'Brien was called 'the Irish Colette'

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/jul/29/edna-obrien-obituary 2A00:23EE:2270:23F7:5965:8475:6754:DF3F (talk) 23:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)