Talk:Cures, Sabinum
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Requested move 7 February 2020
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Moved to Cures, Latium; no prejudice against replacing "Latium" with a different disambiguator in the future (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 12:43, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Cures → Cures, Latium – WP:ASTONISH, no primary topic for "Cures", when I Google Cures all of the results are for the medical term. See similar cases like Cars, Cats, Bones, Bookends, Parachutes and Pixies. While its true that per WP:PLURALPT users can be expected to use the singular more often they are still full matches and anyway it gives the examples of Cars and Bookends redirecting to the singular named article per WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. By PT#2 the medical meaning is clearly primary, views [[1]] show 4,022 for the medical meaning, 234 for this Cures and 17 for Cures, Sarthe. There are also several other places in Spain called "Cures" so this would make it even more ambiguous. I'm not sure about the target which is why I have submitted this RM, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Italy says that the region is used which is Lazio. None of the others in Category:Sabine cities are disambiguated so that's not much help. The Italian Wikipedia has it at It:Cures Sabini so Cures Sabini is perhaps another possibility. Either "Cures" should redirect to Cure (disambiguation) per WP:DABCOMBINE (like Freaks) or be a separate DAB page like Hearts or redirect to Cure as a {{R from plural}} like Pixies. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:19, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect 'Cures' to Cure, and per nom. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:56, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Support per Randy, ASTONISH is the relevant PAG here. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:21, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Oppose. The article has been stable at this title for twelve years; I don't think that WP:ASTONISH applies here, as I doubt many people searching for information about medicine or pharmacology would even think of looking under "cures"—that argument might have been stronger in the 19th century. The proposed title is problematic for multiple reasons: I don't think we have any articles using "Latium" as a disambiguator, while "Lazio" would be jarringly anachronistic; and by definition Cures wasn'tin Latium, but in Sabinum (which I very much doubt is used as a disambiguator for any articles). And while many articles link to Cures, the Sabine city, I doubt very much that "cures" is used as a piped link to medicines—or any related topic—in a similar number of articles. This strikes me more as an example of WP:IFITAINTBROKE, or a solution in search of a problem. P Aculeius (talk) 15:09, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Yes few people will probably search for the plural form but the term is common in English that makes it highly unlikely that "Cures" primarily refers to this place in Italy on the English Wikipedia. We could use Cures, Sabinum or Cures, Italy instead but the point is that its highly unlikely this is the dominant meaning, perhaps if anything (as noted above) that this should redirect to the medical meaning but at minimum there's no primary topic for the plural form. Right now someone looking for the medical meaning or the place in France has to find the hatnote upon landing on here and then click on it and only then can they find the article that they want to find. If this move is done everyone will only have 1 click. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:20, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Not at all convinced that people are being confused because they're searching for "cures" when looking for "medicine". Clearly the singular "cure" has more hits, but we don't actually know (a) what articles readers who type that are looking for, or more importantly, (b) how many of those, immediately finding "cure" popping up as a redirect, would continue typing to search under a plural form; it's very improbable confusion, and the very small number of readers who do this will easily be redirected by the hatnote. I don't think disambiguation is necessary due to the village in France, since according to the same analysis, the Sabine city has more than ten times as many hits. I feel that this proposal is less a matter of avoiding likely problems, and more one of clearing the ground of anything that could conceivably be confused, without any evidence that confusion actually exists. The fact that nobody else has proposed moving this article in twelve years is pretty strong evidence that readers aren't frequently landing there by mistake, and that a hatnote is more than adequate to put them on the right path. P Aculeius (talk) 15:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- If moved the very small number of English speakers looking for this place can easily find it on the DAB page (1 click) instead of 2 for everyone else. All one has to do is look on Google, both the main Google and images and books don't return anything for this place when searching for cures, see WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY. Its unthinkable and absolutely absurd that "Cures" in English refers to this place that few English speakers will have heard of rather than a common term that nearly everyone will have heard of. By WP:PRIMARYTOPIC#1 "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." I don't think this even comes close since the medical meaning gets over 17x the views (even taking into account people arriving in error) even if only say 3% of people looking for the medical meaning used the plural its unlikely that the place in Italy would be "much more than any other". By PT#2 "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term" its clear that the medical meaning has far more significance than the place in Italy. If I search for "Cures" on WP there are far more results for the medical meaning. Just because the mistake wasn't noticed for 12 years doesn't mean that we can't fix something that's clearly wrong and readers have likely been misdirected for years because of this, there were similar cases like Battlefields (see Talk:Battlefields, Zimbabwe#Requested move 18 February 2019) that had been at that location for nearly 11 years and Longships (see Talk:Longships, Cornwall#Requested move 4 April 2019 that had been at that location for not far of 15 years. See Cars as an example given by WP:PLURALPT which the vehicle gets 62,800 views while the film gets 53,312[[2]] yet "Cars" redirect to "Car" rather than the DAB or the film and the film is (AFAIK) well known in the English speaking world. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:00, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you have utterly failed to convince me that a significant number of people search for "cures" instead of "medicine", and having done so, fail to click on "cure" when it appears in the search window, and are mystified when they arrive at an article about a historical city named "Cures", or that a hatnote is inadequate to set them straight in this very unlikely circumstance. As I said before, this is a solution in search of a problem—only it creates problems instead of solving them—because currently there can be few if any articles in which "cures" is used as a link to "medicine" or any related article, while various Greek and Roman articles link directly to Cures, the ancient city. Why bulldoze a perfectly good solution—a hatnote in an article that's where it belongs—in order to eliminate a tiny probability of someone arriving at the article by mistake? P Aculeius (talk) 18:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but you've utterly failed to convince me that this topic is remotely plausibly the primary topic here. If you type "Cures" into the search box this comes up but the medical meaning doesn't and its quite likely users might click on it or press go. If moved the title with the qualifier would still come up so people can click on it. Being taken onto the DAB page isn't going to cause problems for the small number of people who do want the place. The links can easily be fixed (which I will do so). Its not at all a perfectly good situation, what evidence do you have that only a tiny amount of people want something else? Why are the few looking for the city going to have such a problem clicking through the DAB? By the same logic should have Longships and Battlefields been left as is? of course not, same goes here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Snark isn't an argument. Nobody searches for information about medicine by typing "cures" in the search window, and hatnotes are fine. It's not necessary to paper over every possible synonym for a topic that you can imagine people searching for, and claim they're all primary for some other title. There's a reason why nobody even suggested moving this topic for twelve years, and that's because it's not a problem. P Aculeius (talk) 22:00, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Its common as noted in the nomination statement to redirect the plural form to a singular named article so its not just any synonym and in fact this was a redirect to Cure from 2003 until it was overwritten with this article in 2007 unlike Longships and Battlefields that always hosted an article. The fact no one noticed isn't a good reason not to fix something clearly wrong. There have also been similar cases of this such as Crickets, Temples and Cuts that were fixed back, see WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:19, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
- Snark isn't an argument. Nobody searches for information about medicine by typing "cures" in the search window, and hatnotes are fine. It's not necessary to paper over every possible synonym for a topic that you can imagine people searching for, and claim they're all primary for some other title. There's a reason why nobody even suggested moving this topic for twelve years, and that's because it's not a problem. P Aculeius (talk) 22:00, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but you've utterly failed to convince me that this topic is remotely plausibly the primary topic here. If you type "Cures" into the search box this comes up but the medical meaning doesn't and its quite likely users might click on it or press go. If moved the title with the qualifier would still come up so people can click on it. Being taken onto the DAB page isn't going to cause problems for the small number of people who do want the place. The links can easily be fixed (which I will do so). Its not at all a perfectly good situation, what evidence do you have that only a tiny amount of people want something else? Why are the few looking for the city going to have such a problem clicking through the DAB? By the same logic should have Longships and Battlefields been left as is? of course not, same goes here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:11, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you have utterly failed to convince me that a significant number of people search for "cures" instead of "medicine", and having done so, fail to click on "cure" when it appears in the search window, and are mystified when they arrive at an article about a historical city named "Cures", or that a hatnote is inadequate to set them straight in this very unlikely circumstance. As I said before, this is a solution in search of a problem—only it creates problems instead of solving them—because currently there can be few if any articles in which "cures" is used as a link to "medicine" or any related article, while various Greek and Roman articles link directly to Cures, the ancient city. Why bulldoze a perfectly good solution—a hatnote in an article that's where it belongs—in order to eliminate a tiny probability of someone arriving at the article by mistake? P Aculeius (talk) 18:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- If moved the very small number of English speakers looking for this place can easily find it on the DAB page (1 click) instead of 2 for everyone else. All one has to do is look on Google, both the main Google and images and books don't return anything for this place when searching for cures, see WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY. Its unthinkable and absolutely absurd that "Cures" in English refers to this place that few English speakers will have heard of rather than a common term that nearly everyone will have heard of. By WP:PRIMARYTOPIC#1 "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term." I don't think this even comes close since the medical meaning gets over 17x the views (even taking into account people arriving in error) even if only say 3% of people looking for the medical meaning used the plural its unlikely that the place in Italy would be "much more than any other". By PT#2 "A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term" its clear that the medical meaning has far more significance than the place in Italy. If I search for "Cures" on WP there are far more results for the medical meaning. Just because the mistake wasn't noticed for 12 years doesn't mean that we can't fix something that's clearly wrong and readers have likely been misdirected for years because of this, there were similar cases like Battlefields (see Talk:Battlefields, Zimbabwe#Requested move 18 February 2019) that had been at that location for nearly 11 years and Longships (see Talk:Longships, Cornwall#Requested move 4 April 2019 that had been at that location for not far of 15 years. See Cars as an example given by WP:PLURALPT which the vehicle gets 62,800 views while the film gets 53,312[[2]] yet "Cars" redirect to "Car" rather than the DAB or the film and the film is (AFAIK) well known in the English speaking world. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:00, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Not at all convinced that people are being confused because they're searching for "cures" when looking for "medicine". Clearly the singular "cure" has more hits, but we don't actually know (a) what articles readers who type that are looking for, or more importantly, (b) how many of those, immediately finding "cure" popping up as a redirect, would continue typing to search under a plural form; it's very improbable confusion, and the very small number of readers who do this will easily be redirected by the hatnote. I don't think disambiguation is necessary due to the village in France, since according to the same analysis, the Sabine city has more than ten times as many hits. I feel that this proposal is less a matter of avoiding likely problems, and more one of clearing the ground of anything that could conceivably be confused, without any evidence that confusion actually exists. The fact that nobody else has proposed moving this article in twelve years is pretty strong evidence that readers aren't frequently landing there by mistake, and that a hatnote is more than adequate to put them on the right path. P Aculeius (talk) 15:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Support Per nom. Cures should 100% be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Cure.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 10:43, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
- Support. Clear primary redirect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:32, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.