Talk:Dave Guard

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2006 comment[edit]

Rough collection of info. Green caterpillar 22:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

"Wikify" notice?[edit]

Okay, so tell me what you'd like to see done? I know this article is "live", but please note that this article is essentially an on-going rewrite of the original stub that was here. My work is based on personal knowledge of Dave Guard -- I went to school with him at Punahou, was on the football and track teams with him. And also from many digging through many, many web pages scattered here, there, and everywhere over the Internet. I've also got a related article that's in development (see "Whiskeyhill Singers") and is also "live" (it started out a stub, though), so you might want to take a look at that, although it's an article about one of Dave Guard's musical groups, and is intended to be a related but separate article.  I'd appreciate any comments about that article as well.

I also have another biographical article I'm writing that's "live" (see "W.A.N.T."). Comments on that article would also be appreciated. It's being developed from cassette tapes, videotape, and a 250-page autobiography by Busemeyer that I've been given by his family. Comments on that will also be appreciated.

Then finally, I've got an academic article I'm writing (on my Talk page) about the tip wage credit. That one's almost, but not quite ready to go to review before I put it up live.

Thanks/regards,

Ken

K. Kellogg-Smith 21:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Need help about "Wikifying".[edit]

Someone tacked a "Wikify" notice on this article without explaining why ... and without the simple courtesy of signing their name (so I can go to their talk page). I can remove the tag easily enough, but removing it on the page might not remove it from the page/article "needs Wikifying" lists. Any help? K. Kellogg-Smith 01:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikify may be able to help. It notes that:

"An article needs Wikification if it:

  • Has no specific lead paragraph and / or has no sections headings.
  • Has no internal linking (wiki-links).
  • Has no Infobox or templating and may require it."

And notes that the process of Wikification entails:

  • Make links to other articles by putting "[[" and "]]" on either side of relevant words.
  • Format the lead (first section / opening paragraph).
  • Arrange section headers as described at Wikipedia:Guide to layout.
  • Add the class="wikitable" tag to plain html tables.
  • Add an Infobox if applicable.

The page is now wikified! However, please remember to:

  • Remove the {{wikify}} tag. That will remove it from the list.
  • Enhance your edit summary. You can encourage others to help with the wikification backlog by using something like the following as your edit summary when you save your changes:
Wikified as part of the [[WP:WWF|Wikification wikiproject]]!

Hope that helps! If you need more help, just restore the {{helpme}} template, or leave me a note on my talk page :) --YbborTalkSurvey! 02:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Schoen/Shane?[edit]

I wonder why the article uses Bob Shane's birth name rather than his performing name? Most people will expect the latter , and there's already a Wiki article about him under Bob Shane. If Shane was still going by Schoen in quartet days, then maybe the thing to do is to revise the sentence to indicate that he later changed the spelling of his name to the stage version.

On a perhaps-related matter--your comment above indicates that much of your knowledge of Guard is based on personal acquaintacnce. This is going to make problems eventually, since most Wiki editors will see this information as original research (OR) and tag it as such. (I've encountered this issue with several topics on which I have personal knowledge or not-yet-published original research.) The main guideline for this is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOR. It often feels counter-intuitive, especially when there are errors or distortions in the public record or received wisdom on a topic, but we're stuck with it in Wikipedia. The challenge in constructing an entry is to be able to justify any given point by referring to a reliable source. It can get to be a bit of a game, but I suppose this is a leisure activity for most of us. (And if you're a contemporary and classmate of Dave Guard, you might have some information about the Cultural Renaissance period I'd like to hear about for a book I'm working on.) RLetson 17:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Some Talking Points[edit]

Commendations for your ongoing work on developing a reliable article on this seminal but under appreciated figure in American music history. I have some comments of both a general and specific nature which I would offer before going in and doing an edit by myself

a) The section on "Military Service" is completely out of place because first, Guard had none, and second, your use of the word "presumably" for his draft registration. This section reflects a topic that may be of interest to the writer (classmates?) but is of no consequence whatsoever in terms of what makes Guard of interest to a reader of an encyclopedia.

  • Perhaps a brief lesson in U.S. military history is in order here.  From the time Guard turned 18 he was subject to the federal military draft, which was had been in effect since before the Korean War. Like all males in the U.S. at that time, Guard was required to register with his local draft board in the Territory.  No one was exempt from the draft.  Dave was at that time, like all males between the ages of 18 and 36, required by federal law to serve our country with at least eight years military service, with at least two years of that service being on active duty in either the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps (thank you Congress and President Eisenhower).  College deferments delayed a student from being drafted, and many of Guard's classmates selected the branch of service they would eventually have to serve in by enrolling in campus Naval and Army R.O.T.C. units, were commissioned officers upon graduation, and served four years of their eight year military obligation in the armed forces as officers (instead of enlisted men).  Upon completion of at least two years of their eight year military obligation, the remainder of the eight years not served on active miltary duty could be served in Reserve units.  As a result of the draft, any eligible male who did not further their formal education after turning 18 were subject to being drafted at any time, and many were.  That same draft law was in effect during the administrations of presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson,and Nixon, i.e., was in effect during the Vietnam war, and since the possiblity of being drafted was on everyone's mind as the Vietnam war intensified,the draft was demonstrably the cause of much student unrest, protest, sit-ins, draft card burnings, and other related demonstrations all across the country during the late 1960's, including the student killings by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State, and fleeing to Canada to avoid the draft.  So the section of Guard's "Military Service" was in my mind and experience very relevant, as it would be to anyone who came of age when Guard did.  Why didn't Guard serve any time in the military?  Was playing guitar gigs in smoky bars considered to be deferable employment?  But pounding nails as a carpenter or carpenter's helper wasn't?  Well, I can certainly understand why an editor born after the Nixon administration ended the military service draft obligation, an editor who never heard about "the draft", an editor who never had to face the anguish of the actuality or possibility of an interrupted education or an interrupted life as Guard's peers everywhere in the U.S. did at the time the Trio was experiencing fame and fortune, would think the "Military Service" section of this article was "out of place".K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 03:58, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Re the last sentence: Certainly so, Mr. K-S - but you would not be adressing me on that point at all, since I was born in the Truman administration, had to register for the draft (or decide not to, as was the choice of some of us in the mid-60s), and had to deal with most of the same considerations regarding deferments and service that Guard did (and at least when I was eligible, the commitment total was 6 years total - 2 active duty, 2 active reserve, 2 inactive reserve) - and this during a time of a shooting war, which was the case (winding down) when DG turned 18 in 10/52 but was not so for the remainder of his six or eight years of eligibility. The draft in the period between Korea and Vietnam was, as you must know, a hit (Elvis) or miss affair, mostly miss. Most draft boards from 1954-1964 had very low quotas, and as you also must recall, deferments abounded: full time college student including graduate school or professional school; marriage; children. Vietnam began peeling off the deferments one by one until the beginning of the lottery in 1969. Now, my point regarding that section was that since DG had no military service, there is no relevance regarding it as far as his notability goes. Perhaps this is not so - maybe growing up in the heavily militay islands for a period of time in the 40s did in fact have a shaping influence on him as a musician and person. But to say so here, you need documentation, more than a presumption. Are there any sources in which DG made reference in any way to the military? If so, then they can be added to the article. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 08:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC) I would also add that your history lesson might be more apropriate directed at someone who did not live through and participate in virtually every event you described, as I did. Sensei48 (talk) 08:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


b) The section on the Kingston Trio reflects largely Guard's point of view, both in terms of the formation of the group and his split from them. There is no question that the formation of the group originates with Guard and his various configurations, but the chronology and personnel changes aren't completely accurate. Reynolds, for instance, was a member both of DG and the Calypsonians and was the fourth member of the Kingston Quartet with Guard, Bogue, and Gannon (who eventually became the group's road manager). An excellent print source for this is Blake, Rubeck, and Shaw, The Kingston Trio On Record (Kingston Korner, Inc, 1986), which includes both a picture on p. 18 dated 1957 with the aforementioned quartet in striped shirts and with Reynolds on bongos as well as an extensive interview with Guard for the book by Elizabeth Wilson.

c) Werber approached Guard AND Reynolds at Menlo Park's Cracked Pot beer garden where DG and the Calypsonians were playing. He suggested that three would be easier to get jobs for than four, and neither Guard nor Reynolds was happy with Gannon's musical contributions to the group. But Gannon and Bogue were engaged (and did marry), and getting rid of one meant getting rid of the other. Guard had met Reynolds through Shane (yes, the stage name), and both recognized the superior quality of Shane's voice (and rhythm guitar playing - Guard acknowledges that he learned guitar chord formations and basic strums from Shane in the cited interview). The two got rid of Gannon, Bogue went with him, and Shane returned from Hawaii where he had both been working in his father's sporting goods business and doing what he has termed an Elvis impersonation act (as well as songs by the Weavers, Harry Belafonte, and Hank Williams, among others) at the Royal Hawaiian Hotel.

Confirmation for all of the above is again in KTOR, in both the Guard interview and an extensive interview with Frank Werber (who died recently just a few days after the ascribed date of the first assembling of Guard, Reynolds and Shane, on May 29, 1957).

d) Much more could be said about Guard's break from the Trio, and Shane and Reynolds have a somewhat different perspective (not surprisingly), which I know from both personal experience with them and citably from public interviews, notably Shane's comments in the 2006 documentary for PBS Wherever We May Go (Prod. Paul Surratt/JoAnn Young: Shout Factory, 2006).

e) There seems to be an internal inconsistency. The date for the break-up of The Whiskeyhill Singers is first listed as 1962 (correct date) but two paragraphs later as 1961.

f) "In 1967 Guard sold his 24% interest in the Kingston Trio to Shane, giving Shane the right to call his group The Kingston Trio. " This line is an inaccurate summary and conclusion. Shane, Reynolds, and Werber agreed to a buy-out price of $300,000 for his interest in the KT, to be paid over a number of years. After the troupe with John Stewart disbanded in 1967, Shane needed to secure the permission of Reynolds and Werber to use the name "New Kingston Trio" from 1969-1976. Guard was financially completely out of the picture by this time and had no say in this decision. Shane bought the name outright from Werber and Reynolds in 1976 and has called all subsequent configurations of the group "The Kingston Trio."

Documentation for the above exists in large part from a 1981 article in the New York Times following a PBS-sponsored reunion concert that included the touring KT of the time as well as the Shane, Reynolds, Stewart configuration and (for the first time in 20 years) the Guard, Shane and Reynolds configuration. This article should be available online again soon when the "Kingston Trio Liner Notes" (a fan site but with extensive uploaded research material, including hundreds of articles written about the Trio) co,mes back on line.

g) "The Mystery Years" makes it seem as if Guard was underground. His whereabouts and activities during this time are quite well-known, at least to KT fans. Aside from the Reunion concert, Guard performed frequently as a solo, touring over the years with the Modern Folk Quartet. He put out a solo album Up and In in 1988. He was deeply involved with the guru Muktananda.

h) Guard's bouts with cancer started long before New Hampshire. He was recovering from cancer related shoulder surgery at the time of the 1981 reunion concert. Allusion to this is made in KTOR, but there are more extensive discussions elsewhere, which I'll find and add to this.

A fine effort so far, but with room for addition/improvement. Sensei48 18:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)Sensei48

And a further addition - the evolution of the Kingston Trio musically is not as presented here. First , the KT repertoire emerged not primarily from Reynolds, as implied, but from all three. Any of the three (and manager Werber) could and did suggest songs for recording and/or performance. Initially, all three had to agree on a song or it was not accepted into the repertoire. Guard did the bulk of the arranging, more so as time went on during the first four years. He composed/wrote literally no songs whatsoever that were recorded by the KT. He was assigned sole copyright initially to two songs on the first eponymous album: "Tom Dooley and "Scotch and Soda," two of the group's signature songs. "Tom Dooley" was listed as "Traditional - Arranged By Dave Guard" when in fact the Trio was using (likely unbeknownst to them at the time) the unique arrangement of a North Carolina ballad by Frank Warner and John A. and Alan Lomax, who subsequently sued Guard, won, and were awarded copyright and cash. "Scotch and Soda" was taught to Guard and Shane by the parents of a date of Guard's ; they had heard it from an anonymous piano player in a hotel in Phoenix while on their honeymoon in the 1930s. Guard put his name on the song, expecting as he always alleged that the true composer would come forward and claim credit and royalties. This never happened, and "Scotch and Soda" (which was a solo for Shane and which both Shane and Reynolds have frequently said is the single most requested song from the KT song book) remains copyrighted under Guard's name, though it is common knowledge that he himself did not write it. Guard claimed CO-writing credit on a limited number of KT songs, especially with Texan Jane Bowers, who was said to resent sharing copyright with Guard because his contributions to the songs were minimal and the co-copyright was the price he exacted for the Trio to record the songs (which given the millions of albums the group sold in its first four years meant a substantial amount of money to any copyright holder whose songs appeared on their albums). This also led to a practice that heightened the tension between Guard and the Trio and traditional folk performers. On the first few albums, the KT would list traditional folk songs that they recorded as "Traditional - Arranged By Dave Guard" or "Traditional - Arranged Guard, Shane Reynolds." The songs were almost invariably in the public domain, and the controversy arose when Trio members made minimal changes to someone else's arrangement (often the Weavers) and claimed it as their own or when they took a familiar melody and appended their own words, claiming authorship as either "Guard, Shane,Reynolds" or under the humorous pen name "Jack Splittard" (much as the Weavers had copyrighted public domain material under the pseudonym "Paul Campbell").

Substantiation for these points can be found in the same sources quoted above - The Kingston Trio On Record, the PBS documentary Wherever We May Go, the New York Times article on the 1981 Reunion concert, the wire service obituary for Jane Bowers, and more that I will list as they become available.


Everyone should be very careful concerning authorship and copyright for any material associated with the Kingston Trio, and perhaps other "folk" artists of that era. For instance, the authorship for the song "You're Gonna Miss ::Me" ( on the "Goin' Places LP) is attributed to "Seeger, Paley, Cohen, Guard". But the same song was recorded by Charlie Poole in New York City on September 18, 1926, entitled "Leaving Home" for Columbia Records. This can be verified by reading the liner notes to "Charlie Poole and the North Carolina Ramblers", JSP Records # 7734A, (London, U.K.; 2004) and listening to the piece. It could scarcely be said to have even been re-arranged, and the words, if not identical, are hardly different. The Trio's feud with Jean Ritchie over the authorship of "Shady Grove", along with other facts regarding the Kingston Trio, is contained in Scott Weissman's book "Which Side Are You On?", which was released in 2007. It seems lots of folks were playing fast and loose with copyright and authorship in the early days of folk music, along with rock music as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Sparkman (talkcontribs) 14:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

More to come. Sensei48 08:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)Sensei48

Very good stuff, Sensei48. I made some minor changes here, nothing with content really. Maybe discog should be split out to new article?Airproofing (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Also reading this brings up a point I struggled with in doing the album entries: How to clarify the "credits" for the songs? A conundrum as the guideline is to use the credited composer, yet Reynolds didn't write "Hangman" for instance, yet is listed on all releases as such. Some kind of disclaimer is needed, but I didn't want to put it on every album page.Airproofing (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

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