Talk:David James (actor, born 1839)

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Errors

The correct parents have finally been added to this article but there are still serious errors. For example his son David O'Hara was not Jewish but Catholic. He had no contact with his father whatsoever and David James refused to recognise him. David O'Hara took the stage name David James junior for his own reasons. The only full length biography is in the online book Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film. This book should be added as a reference to pages about David James Belasco , David Belasco , Selina Dolaro , and Jay Belasco, and also to references about Aby Belasco the boxer. For most of these people it is the only accurate source of information. For David Belasco the playwright, it corrects some of the myths which David Belasco made up and were used in his biography by William Winter. Davidbelasco (talk) 14:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Setting the page back to 2010 has not helped since it now gives the wrong date of birth implying the wrong parents again. Also David James did not have a brother and David Belasco the playwright was not his nephew. Davidbelasco (talk) 16:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, David. The problem stemmed from these to edits in January 2013: [1], [2]. The editor in question pasted over the original article, removing all the formatting and referencing, and but worse still adding a pile of original research allegedly sourced to "Mary Healey - Family historian and relative of Abraham Julian Belasco utilising Bevis Mark's records". That is entirely unacceptable per Wikipedia's policy on No original research. I have reverted the article to its previous state, added further references, and removed the names of his parents since there is no reliable source for them. I no longer have access to the Hyamson book so cannot check the parents' names there. I re-added the fact that he had a son who was actor who went by the stage name "David James", as this can be referenced to Palgrave Macmillan's The Palgrave Dictionary of Anglo-Jewish History which is also the source of the birth date. The material about the son's illegitmate birth, mother's name, etc. cannot be verified by a reliable source and has not been included. Unfortunately, Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film by Steven MacDougall is self-published via Lulu and would not be considered a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Verifiability for more. Also, even a book which is considered a reliable source is never added as a reference unless it was actually used as a reference in writing the article, and it then requires an exact page number for the assertion(s) it supports. Voceditenore (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PS. I have also removed the material about him that was sourced from the 1919 Winter biography of David Belasco, i.e. that he was David Belasco's uncle, etc. which appears in none of the other sources. Voceditenore (talk) 16:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The first edition of the book is already listed in university libraries on world cat most widely held works.

http://orlabs.oclc.org/identities/np-belasco%20family/

It is also listed on Boston University Fanciulla project as a reference work for the project.

http://people.bu.edu/burtond/resources/Research/6i3.BUHF2Application.pdf

I could see that someone had used it to edit the article about David James, it was just in the part about the son where the person made some incorrect guesses of their own. The book can be used to cite the correct date of birth as 25 Jan 1835. Davidbelasco (talk) 02:20, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the use by BU gives a certain amount of credibility to the book, although I note that the first edition is likewise self-published, and is held by very few libraries. The author of the first edition seems to specialise in self-published family geneaologies and memorial books. The author of the second edition is presumably a relative of hers? Do you have a copy of the Belasco book? If so, you'd need to supply a page number for the date of birth. Frankly, I'd be reluctant to use much else from it without some indication of the documentation she used. Are they actual documents, press clippings etc. or "family stories" (which can be very inaccurate)? For now, I'll just put the date of birth as "1839" and leave it at that. Voceditenore (talk) 06:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have copy. The book is an academic history not a scrapbook. A chart on page 7 gives the exact date of birth 25 Jan 1835. Page 18 gives the year 1835 in the text where it discusses his childhood and parents. The birth year 1839 appears to be based on estimates of his age and is incorrect. This has led many reference books to find parents for him at that date and give the wrong answer. False information spread like a virus in early reference books which used each other. The reason that "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film" is such a great standard source is because it uses contemporary records and not later speculation contained in reference books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidbelasco (talk • contribs) 12:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The correct date and parents as given in "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film" are proved in the discussion below.Davidbelasco (talk) 14:44, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ODNB

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, usually considered a reliable source, gives his parents as "Moses Belasco, a tailor, and his wife, Sophia, née Jacobs". It cites a number of 19th and 20th century sources. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

His parents were Abraham Julian Belasco, a minor entertainer and Hagar, page 18 "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film". This is why "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film" is such a great source. Davidbelasco (talk) 12:45, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If sources differ, then the usual approach under "neutral point of view" is to present both sides, with references, and not try to come to a judgement. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:41, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The advantage of a full biography is that facts can be cross referenced over the course of a person's life. "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film" gives details of David James relationship with his father over a long period of time. Abraham Julian lived to a great age and was able to enjoy the benefits of his son's success. "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film" is the book which made the fundamental discoveries about David James' life including his date of birth on 25 January 1835 to Abraham Julian Belasco, page 7 (a reference chart for the book) and page 18 gives the year 1835 in the text. Davidbelasco (talk) 12:40, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As was pointed out above, Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film fails the test set down in Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. What is said under Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Self-published sources (online and paper) is that "self-published media ... are largely not acceptable". Some qualifications do go with that. On the other hand, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is not negotiable: it states "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Charles Matthews (talk) 09:04, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A report of the funeral of David James in the Standard 5 Oct 1893 page 2 says he was buried "in a grave between those of his father Abraham Julian Belasco and his first wife Leah." Obviously this proves "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film" has the correct birth date of 25 Jan 1835 to Abraham Julian Belasco Page 7 and 18 as stated above. The idea that he is the David born in 1839 to Moses Belasco is just later speculation in second rate articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidbelasco (talk • contribs) 00:02, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film" which asserts the right to be identified for these discoveries gives more detail about the funeral on page 83, quoting here only a small part from several pages dealing with David James death, says, "On 2 October 1893, David James died at his home at 32 St.Johns Wood Road, aged 58 years. He had cancer of the liver. The true extent of David James' illness was kept from the public and very few visitors were permitted......He was laid to rest between his first wife Leah and his father Abraham Julian Belasco." Davidbelasco (talk) 00:16, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

David James' mother was Hagar (Agar) Belasco who was a cousin of Abraham Julian Belasco, page 18 "Belasco from Boxing to Theatre and Film". It probably needs to be stated that she is a cousin otherwise it could be confusing just to call her Hagar Belasco. Davidbelasco (talk) 03:20, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]