Talk:Diving reflex

Diving Reflex Introduction

The diving reflex is triggered specifically by chilling and wetting the nostrils and face while breath-holding,[2][8][9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_reflex#cite_note-Physiology_and_Pathophysiology-2 > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18974367/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_reflex#cite_note-pmid636078-8 > https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/250550 > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/636078/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diving_reflex#cite_note-9 > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16723802/

A note of caution, "by chilling and wetting the nostrils"... if you enhale cold water, there will be more bacteria in cold water than warm water or for instance boiled water chilled in a ventilated ice bath to room temperature in a state-of-the-art clean room at 25°C.

So I would recommend that the phrase be changed to imply caution or to revert to " triggered specifically by cold water contacting the face" https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/250550

it's basic, a shave, men use cold water at the sink to splash the face.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabe Prus (talk • contribs) 17:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Other Uses for MDR

Is it at all possible that, because of the MDR's effect, there is some truth to the idea that splashing a hysterical person with cold water might calm them down by virtue of lowering their heart rate? Does this have theraputic value? Or, even tactical value in the martial arts? I think this page needs an expert, and unfortunately I am not they. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.198.179 (talk) 01:04, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Waterboarding

It seems obvious that the Waterboarding torture technique is designed to induce the diving reflex, and therefore the sensation of drowning, but I haven't seen the two subjects cross-linked (and to do so would be WP:OR). If anyone knows a source for this, please add it. HarborBoats (talk) 15:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

As most people aren't even aware of the mammalian diving reflex, it seems unlikely that anyone would be able to recognize the symptoms so easily and say, "This is what drowning is like!" and particularly so while being subjected to waterboarding. Realistically, drowing is--for the vast majority of us--simply being unable to breathe, which will happen regardless of the activation of any physiological reflex. I would guess that the reason you cannot find a source is that there is not one.

J.M. Archer (talk) 20:16, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

You're conflating different reflexes. Waterboarding is not intended to induce the diving reflex. In fact, waterboarding is designed to trigger a drowning reflex, not a diving reflex. There's nothing very torturous about feeling the diving reflex. Just go for a cool swim-- see, that's not so bad. On the other hand, if your body perceives that water has entered your trachea and airway, it will be torturous and you will be seized by the grip of death. That is the drowning reflex. 96.246.13.91 (talk) 02:46, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The examples of mammalian diving reflex from movies are wrong. The character in The Abyss (incidentally, not the lead) drowns. What saved her was the cold water. This entirely different from Mammalian diving reflex. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 07:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In Adult vs. Infant Humans

According to [1] the diving reflex is "more pronounced in children than in adults". This section is confusing: "other animals, including humans, babies up to 6 months old (see Infant swimming)". Should it be "other animals, including humans (especially babies up to 6 months old),"

Increase in Heartrate?

According to Canadian Red Cross: Drowning Research: Drownings in Canada, 10 Years of Research Module 2 - Ice & Cold Water Immersion, 2006 the short term reaction to immersion into cold water is a rise in heart beat rate. --Xypron 23:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't say that. Read the section on cold shock (another name for Mammalian diving reflex). -Mike.lifeguard 03:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Chase Maneuver

The above portion of the article on the Mammalian Diving Reflex (MDR) fits in with a first-aid method known as the Chase Maneuver using the benefits of MDR for victims of heart attack. Due to the Mammalian Diving Reflex altering the body’s use of oxygen, some victims of cold water drowning can be revived after more than 20 minutes of submersion without the usual signs of brain damage that can occur. Some experimental work has been done to use this reflex (MDR) to control heart arhythmias. The technique used cool water on the face only. This was of interest because it indicates that the whole body need not be submerged to activate MDR. It apparently is due to stimulation of nerves terminating in the face; the skin around the nose and eyes is most sensitive. It is suggested that this method, The Chase Maneuver (CM), could be put to use for prolonging the time that a patient can survive the effects of a heart attack or warm water drowning. This could be done by having the dispatcher at the emergency number instruct the person calling to place a cold, 10 to 20 degree Centigrade, and wet ice water cooled cloth over the victims face, leaving an airway. The cloth should not be freezing cold; the key is to make very good contact between the cloth and face, leaving an airway. This cloth should be kept wet and cool until the victim is transported to an emergency facility. The cloth should also be kept in place while doing CPR. The Chase Maneuver may work to control tachycardia, dangerous EKGs and possibly angina. Because of the mild and non-invasive nature of this intervention, it should be relatively easy to do clinical testing. Please inform me of any interest. Warren Chase: unitycenterusa@yahoo.com

Andersen, H. T., Physiology Review, ‘Physiological Adaptation in Diving Vertebrates’, 46:212 (1966)

Gooden, Brett A., Medical Journal of Australia, ‘Drowning and the Diving Reflex in Man’, 2:583 (1972)

Parfrey, P., Irish Journal of Medical Science, ‘Facial Areas Involved in MDR’, 144:335 (1975)

Aviation Space and Environmental Medicine, 53(3): 273-276.

I moved this from the article to the talk page, because it wasn't written encyclopedically, but in a commentary style. It should be cleaned and checked for potential conflict of interest issues and moved back. Original contributor was: User:72.67.123.153 --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

All vertebrates? moved to here

Removed the following from the article, because although it is a valid point, it is a criticism of the article not of the concept the article explains.

"diving r. a reflex involving cardiovascular and metabolic adaptations to conserve oxygen while diving into water; seen in reptiles, birds, and mammals, including humans." Merck Medical Dictionary - Diving reflex is not just mammals but rather all vertebrates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.153.117.118 (talk) 22:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

If the information is considered valid, it should be included/acted upon regardless of whether it critises the article subject or its contents. Please edit if neccesary and return info to article IceDragon64 (talk) 22:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

But not fish, which don't breathe air (at least not exclusively).

Stuart Morrow (talk) 19:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Application

The material currently here re keeping awake and showering needs refs which link it to Mammalian diving reflex.

Nose-plugging?

As I understand it, the dive reflex is elicited in response to temperature receptors in the nasal cavity. Would the dive reflex thus be stopped from occurring if one plugged one's nose? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.255.162.25 (talk) 16:21, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Reply: Negatron. The response, at least in humans, is triggered by cold stimulation of the face, primarily the forehead and around the orbital sockets. http://www.djur.cob.lu.se/Johan/Abstr_9.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.107.212.247 (talk) 23:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's sensitive to cold stimuli applied to anywhere in the distribution of the trigeminal nerve, which has its densest innervation in the cheek area. So splashing your cheeks with ice cold water or applying something cold there should be enough to trigger it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.47.218.105 (talk) 14:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Aquatic ape theory

I note that the page for the aquatic ape theory cited the mammalian dive reflex as supporting evidence for its hypothesis: would it make sense to mention it on this page? ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 20:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Probably not, for two reasons. One is that AAH is extreme fringe, so to mention it here would be giving it undue weight. Another is that the diving reflex is practically universal, the breath-holding of submersed infants is not unique to humans, so can not be explained by AAH anyway. [2]

This article probably ought discuss explicitly the extent to which the diving reflex is present in other animals (including nonaquatic animals.. there's some refs at [3]), and also how much automatically holding breath underwater is an aspect related to the reflex. Cesiumfrog (talk) 05:44, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

That's Moore, who's a bit of an idiot. We'd want something peer reviewed before we start making claims that were designed to disprove something we don't cover in the article. I've seen monkeys swimming under water for quite some time (chasing otters), but for all we know a diving reflex in "all vertebrates" could be just another example of Moore falsifying his refs. — kwami (talk) 06:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Applications

"Beyond the effect of the reflex when submerged in water, the reflex is used consciously in splashing cold water on one's face."

No I really don't think that splashing water on your face causes your heart rate to drop to 10/minute. Cold water splashing wakes you up because its cold water hitting your face, which is warmer than cold water. Using any other body part with massive nerve endings is likely to achieve the same results. Because this statement is, you know, utterly wrong in every way, im gonna take it out. 74.128.56.194 (talk) 05:31, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Article is contradictory - one cause or many?

Article first claims that cold water on face is the trigger for MDR, then claims that two of the three physiological responses are triggered by pressure. Inconsistent. Are we to assume that in the absence of cold water that #2 & #3 do not happen at high pressure? Since deep water is virtually always cold water, I understand that we need some lab studies to justify this. References? Does colder water move the response towards involvement of the peripheral vascular system? Also the article seems oblivious to the fact (I think_?) that under external pressure, capillaries will collapse on their own, no "MDR" is necessary...at the very least the two causes (if there are two) need to be distinguished. What is the effect of pressure on the blood pressure in the capillaries and extremities? What is the effect of temperature on the face? On the rest of the body?Abitslow (talk) 10:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Raised ambient pressure will not collapse the capillaries. Effect of ambient water pressure on the blood pressure in the capillaries is that it balances hydrostatic variations in blood pressure but should not affect the blood pressure relative to the environment, which is induced by resistance to flow in the blood vessels. Reduced temperature on the face triggers bradycardia, reduced temperature on the rest of the body generally triggers peripheral vasoconstriction. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 11:19, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

B-class review

B

The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. Any format of inline citation is acceptable: the use of <ref> tags and citation templates such as {{cite web}} is optional. Some challenged content remains uncited, and some citations may be medically unreliable.This seems to have been fixed. There is still one request for clarification of a medical application, but I think it is good enough now.Y The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. It contains a large proportion of the material necessary for an A-Class article, although some sections may need expansion, and some less important topics may be missing. The title appears to be an outdated term for a response which occurs over a wider range of organisms than implied here.Better now with new title. Scope could include wider variety of animals Y The article has a defined structure. Content should be organized into groups of related material, including a lead section and all the sections that can reasonably be included in an article of its kind. Structure appears appropriate. Y The article is reasonably well-written. The prose contains no major grammatical errors and flows sensibly, but it does not need to be "brilliant". The Manual of Style does not need to be followed rigorously. Prose looks OK to me. Y The article contains supporting materials where appropriate. Illustrations are encouraged, though not required. Diagrams and an infobox etc. should be included where they are relevant and useful to the content. Unlikely to find any illustrations or diagrams, will look into utility of an infobox. Most reflex articles do not appear to have infoboxes, so will accept that lack of supporting materials is common in this type of article. Y The article presents its content in an appropriately understandable way. It is written with as broad an audience in mind as possible. Although Wikipedia is more than just a general encyclopedia, the article should not assume unnecessary technical background and technical terms should be explained or avoided where possible. Reasonable, though occasionally probably inaccurate. Y

Good enough, I think. Promoting to B-class. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 14:41, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Rename to Diving response.

According to Lindholm, Peter; Lundgren, Claes EG (1 January 2009). "The physiology and pathophysiology of human breath-hold diving". Journal of Applied Physiology. 106 (1): 284–292. doi:10.1152/japplphysiol.90991.2008., the diving response is present in all air-breathing vertebrates. The characteristics listed for diving response are the same as those stated for the mammalian diving reflex, so I assume that the alternative name Diving response has been specifically chosen to accommodate the full range of animals in which it occurs. The term Mammalian diving reflex is not an accurate description, and therefore, the article should be renamed to the more general term, Diving response, with Mammalian diving reflex as a redirect. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 14:02, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

It appears that Diving reflex is also used in the literature. This should be considered as an alternative title. I have no strong preference between diving reflex and diving response. Maybe a slight leaning towards Diving reflex which is already a redirect. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 12:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

• support Diving reflex--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 14:45, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
• Support: The terms, diving response and diving reflex, have been used interchangeably in the cardiovascular literature for decades, and apply to mammals, reptiles (crocodiles, turtles) and diving birds (penguins, ducks), justifying removal of the word "mammalian" from the article title. --Zefr (talk) 16:56, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
• Support Diving reflex CV9933 (talk) 17:15, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Diving reflex it will be. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 20:30, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Merger discussion

I propose merging the content of Blood shift which is about diving reflex into Diving reflex, and converting Blood shift to a disambiguation page linking to Left shift (medicine) which discusses the one meaning and Diving reflex which discusses the other meaning. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 09:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Support. The blood shift component described as "left shift" in medicine is a rare, if not weird, term for which there is no medical source, and could readily be abandoned as insignificant. The blood shift component as part of the diving reflex is justified. --Zefr (talk) 15:10, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Zefr are you suggesting just a merge and redirect without disambiguation? • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 07:42, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I feel the content of Blood shift that applies to the diving reflex be merged, and the minor content discussing Blood shift as synonymous with Left shift be redirected to the Left shift article. --Zefr (talk) 14:18, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

OK, that means a disambiguation. I will merge into diving reflex. The left shift meaning is obscure, so I will put a hatnote on the diving reflex page to cover the left shift. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 18:26, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Merged and disambiguated. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 06:40, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Effects

Paragraphs 3 and 4 do not appear plausible based on hydrostatics, and most of their content is unreferenced. I propose to rewrite them as and when I find a suitable source, but may first delete unreferenced and dubious material as potentially misleading. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 06:47, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Looks like Zefr got to it first. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 06:51, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Zefr, There is a good reference in Lindholm and Lundgren 2009 for arrythmia in humans, which is a bit technical for my summarisation skills. Mybe you could have a go at it? • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 16:09, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Reading it now. Thanks for the good work! --Zefr (talk) 16:14, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Evolution

It would be nice to add a section on the evolution of the reflex. The article claims that it is present in all terrestrial vertebrates, but it would surprise me if the whole collection of processes we call MDR are present since the first tetrapod. Quantum7 05:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Quantum7, Sure it would be nice to have it. Do you know of a suitable reference that covers evolution of the reflex? Why would it surprise you if it goes back to a common tetrapod ancestor of all terrestrial vertebrates (which does not have to be the first tetrapod)? · · · Peter Southwood ^(talk): 21:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't have a suitable reference, but I'll look around for one. It would surprise me because the reflex has lots of complicated parts: temperature/pressure sensing on the face, responses to capillary flow, heart rate, breathing, etc. Combined with the very different selective pressure from different environments I would expect different parts of what we now call the diving reflex to have evolved at different times. But this is all speculation. --Quantum7 06:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)