Talk:Dougong

A fact from Dougong appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 2 September 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the pieces of dougong, an ancient Chinese structural element of interlocking wooden brackets, are cut to fit so perfectly that no glue or fasteners are needed?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/September.

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Chinese character

Why is it sometimes spelled 斗栱 and sometimes 斗拱? Is either considered more correct? Rigadoun (talk) 17:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know. The book that is my primary reference does not have the word in Chinese characters. I will ask User:PericlesofAthens who is more knowledgeable and has a more complete reference set than I do. --Mattisse 17:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since so far, zh:斗栱 and zh-yue:斗拱 have been added to the bottom of the page, I am guessing that there are many variants. Looking at older and larger articles on Chinese subjects, I see that even more alternative Chinese character spellings have been added to those articles (I guess, by bots). --Mattisse 18:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see you added the zh and the zh-yue. To me much is mystery. You seem to know more than I do! --Mattisse 18:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just found them linked on the zh page, but I didn't know why they were written differently, and thought that if anyone did, an explanation would be nice. Rigadoun (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Answer to question

I have been told that dougong is 斗拱 in elementary Chinese. --Mattisse 20:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My Chinese dictionaries all have 斗拱 and not the other version. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where's the beef?

This article talks about dougong joinery without actually explaining it. It is more of a cultural/artistic puff piece than a useful exposition on the subject. For example, the article says that "craftsmen cut the wooden pieces to fit so perfectly that no glue or fasteners are ever necessary." This is a misunderstanding of joinery. Glue or fasteners are used to join pieces that would otherwise be pulled apart. It appears (although there is no explanation) that the dougong operates by the interlocking of the pieces and the weight of one piece on another. Unless the weight above the joint starts to levitate (unlikely, even in China!) the dougong does not have to handle tension or shear stresses that try to pull the joint apart. So it is not the perfection of the cuts that holds the joint together, it is the design of the joint itself. This article needs work by an expert. 83.79.47.111 07:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The statement from the book, as referenced in the footnote citation, is the following:

The importance of joinery cannot be overstated. Since the earliest use of wood as a building material, Chinese pillars, beams, struts, brackets, and roof frames have been cut to interlock perfectly, without the use of fasteners or adhesives.

If you have alternative information, please add it with a reference citation to the article. --Mattisse 22:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just fyi in passing: The quotation mentioned above does not support "craftsmen cut the wooden pieces to fit so perfectly that no glue or fasteners are ever necessary."

What anon (quite rightly) objected to is the suggestion that the quality of craftsmanship makes glue/fasteners unnecessary. And the citation doesn't say that either.

Instead (and what both anon and the citation are saying), it is the nature of the design -- i.e. the interlocking structure -- that makes glue/fasteners unnecessary. Each piece is supporting other pieces, and so on, until it comes about full circle.

Like a lintel thats held up by two side posts, but the side posts don't fall away because the weight of the lintel is preventing them from doing so.

Is that a little clearer? -- Fullstop (talk) 22:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The source does say that Chinese architecture was largely the art of craftsmen and that the fact joints did not have fasteners or glue etc. made them more flexible than structures in other areas that did, and thus was reason that Chinese structures were immune to earthquakes. The author also says that there is no evidence if the craftsmen were aware of this property of their expertise. Mattisse (Talk) 23:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Wiki Education assignment: Architectural History

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