Talk:Education in Australia/Archive 1

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Initial comments

Hi everyone! This page is slowly starting to take shape, although I see a few problems with it. Firstly, different states have different lengths of schooling. Here in WA, kids go to kindergarten, then pre-primary, then primary school for Years 1 to 7, then to high school from Years 8 to 12. Only a select few private boys schools start high school earlier than Year 8. Can the article be modified to reflect this? - Mark Ryan 11:54, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Be bold and take the lead! --Menchi (Talk)â 11:57, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'd like to see more information about the different types of Catholic and private schools in Australia. I thought there were two categories of Catholic schools: "systemic" and "private", with systemic being run by the church and changing low fees. Further, I think there's been a substantial growth in low-fee "independent" schools (obviously they're private, but don't have the eliteness that goes with that word), and there are hard-core religious schools (Jews, Muslims, etc.). My knowledge of all this is extremely shaky, NSW-specific, and thoroughly incomplete, so I couldn't possibly contribute to the article. Hopefully someone can. -- Gavin Sinclair, 2 March 2005

In South Australia, the first year of primary school is called reception, followed by years 1 - 7, then years 8 - 12 are taken in secondary school. The first section of this article makes it sound like everyone but New South Wales uses the Victorian system. -- Troyac, 1 April 2005

Also, the majority of Law degrees are undertaken as combined degrees and yes, there are ample places for students finishing year 12. The LLB on its own, is usually taken after an initial undergradauate degree and credit can be gained.

The article doesn't reflect the changes to the first years of schooling in WA, with full-time school starting at five years. I don't know enough about this to add it. Sera 05:23, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure about the statistic that 1 in 5 Australians do not have the literacy to effectively participate in normal daily life. 80% Literacy sounds more like a third world country, not Australia which has world class standards of education. All sources I've found put lieracy between 98% and 100% (Microsoft Encarta puts it at 100%), I don't think 100% is realistic but it certainly is not below 97.5%. Statistics Canada and the OECD might have some strange far-fetched idea about literacy, but as it is no one can agree on a standard; Nations have different ideas to their own states who have different ideas to other countries and then there is NGO's each with their own definitions! My point is that Australia's literacy is certainly not as poor as it is made out to be in this article. Does anyone else have any insight on this topic? Patrick M 07:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

In the section on Universities its states that there are 36 public universities and 2 Catholic universities. This is not teachinically correct as Australian Catholic University is a Public, Catholic university. This section should be changed Soundabuser 04:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

In ACT, in years 11 and 12, students go to college, not high school, could someone edit that? (i'm i.t illiterate XD) Bubzie29 06:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:Education infobox

I created a template, Template:Education infobox which can give a quick at a glance demographics table for education articles. See its implementation at Education in the United States and feel free to help improve the template.--naryathegreat | (talk) 00:59, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Qld 2007 Primary 1-6

Can someone provide cites on this. 2006 sees widespread introduction of prep year replacing preschool in Qld. I've not personaly heard about the loss of year 7s to Highschools. Alex Law 10:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I checked with my local primary school (Toowoomba South State School), and the headmaster told me that the P-6 and sending 7s to highschool had been raised, but discarded. Alex Law 00:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Prep actually starts in 2007. All my local schools move Grade 7 to high school that same year. Aleksei 11:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this a trial, and/or is this verifiable? All sites I can find suggest no change to year 7 is afoot. Orderinchaos78 00:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Education Export in Australia

According to National income status, Australia received their income by selling their education service, to student around the world. In my opinion, you should add this section in this article, because it has become crucial source of income of this country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.9.76.145 (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Special education and adult options for those with disabilities

Hello everyone! I was wondering: what is the current status on Australian special education and the adult options that people explore, and can we put it in Wikipedia? How much should we put in and from what sources? It would be great to have an article on Wikipedia about Victoria's Futures for Young Adults, particularly the changes that have taken place between 2003 and 2005 (when I myself exited from the programme, and probably shouldn't have been in it in the first place as I was going to university or TAFE independently!). Other adult options should be covered too, like supported employment and the Adult Training Services. And Certificates I-IV have specially designed options, like the NMIT Ignite Programme which is now Live Performance and funded by FFYA. Also the way the states fund inclusion and other options, as well as specialist schools, should be covered, particularly in regional and remote areas. I don't know how to add this with a neutral point of view or without mucking up the development of the rest of the article. Also, special schools are 'ungraded' - well, many of them. I would really love to know more about the schools for different needs. I know the ones in Victoria, for autism spectrum conditions and intellectual disabilities, and have an interest in them. Two schools of excellence are Wantirna Heights School in the Eastern Region (and I'm not just saying this because I'm close to home!) and Western Autistic School in Glenroy, the Western Region, which is close to Scienceworks and Autistic Pride Day. --Bronwyn Gannan 12:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC).

Names for years table

While this is a good way of representing the data, it leaves out some data that was in the text that preceded it. Such as the two systems in the NT, and that SA has a Year 13. I also suspect that not all WA's high schools are called "senior high schools". Adding the varying names of preschools would be adventagous as well. matturn 06:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And could someone with better HTML skillz than I please separate ACT and NSW in the table? They have different school systems - ACT has senior college for Years 11 and 12. Please don't replace text with tables without retaining important information. Natgoo 08:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks 203.173.7.153! Natgoo 09:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox information

In the infobox it states that the federal education system was established in 1895, clearly this cannot be true considering that Australia did not federate until 1901. Does anyone know what year it should be?? Soundabuser 00:31, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The National Schools date back to before the split between NSW and Qld (before 1850?). In Qld National Schools became State Schools. Some Commonwealth departments came into existance before Federation, education may have been one of them.Alex Law 09:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Seeing that the "National Gallery of Victoria" doesn't relate to the nation of Victoria, nor does the "South Australian National Football League" relate to the South Australian nation, I suspect the system of NSW "National Schools" at best relates to a NSW nation, but most likely to the nation of Great Britain and Ireland.

The date "1895" may come from [1] or it's derivatives. At that date, the last state school system was established. matturn 13:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

How is it possible that there Are only 0.9 million high schools students compared to 1.9 million primary - ie less than half. Obviously there will always be more primary than secondary but this disparity seems too great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.105.218 (talk) 23:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Also the figures do not add up to 17% of the Australian population. 17 % is about 3.6 million. The figures in the box add up to 3.2 million. If the missing .4 was added to the secondary schooling number (ie 1.3 million) that would seem much more plausible than the current .9 figure.

Primary and Secondary

I have noticed that the information on primary and secondary education has been Coming Soon for about 4 months now. Maybe someone needs to actually complete those sections. TKLM 10:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

School year and day

Is the school year typically August/September to May/June as in the United States, does it follow the Southern Hemisphere seasons, or is it all-year? -- Beland 00:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and is the primary and secondary school day typically 6 hours, as in the U.S.? -- Beland 00:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Late January to mid December. If it's not in there, it should be - I'll check. Orderinchaos78 00:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Done. Orderinchaos78 00:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Grades in different states

It should be remembered here that, because of the differing regulations in different states, different systems of grades (years) are employed. For example, in New South Wales, there are two systems in play, each of which overlaps the other: A stage system (Early Stage 1 and Stages 1 to 6) and the standard grade (year) system (Kindergarten, Grades (Years) 1 to 12), with Grade 7/Stage 4 signalling the beginning of high school. In Queensland, high school starts at Grade (Year) 8, and so forth. Analyses of each individual state needs to be brought into focus, as well as what subjects are taught (and how) in each state and level. --JB Adder | Talk 01:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

2 year "stages" also exist in the Victorian system, if not other states and territories, though have little practical impact. By all means mention them, but I recommend not trying to add them the "school years" table. matturn 13:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Attainment?

What is the source for the Attainment rates quoted on this page 91% have a secondary diploma and 69% have a post secondary diploma? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.33.164.230 (talk) 00:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Use of term "Independent"

While Catholic schools are as independent of the government as any other non-government school, I am yet to see them referred to as (big-I) "Independent Schools" anywhere but this article. If someone doesn't defend this choice of nomenclature here, I'll likely change the article back to the more standard usage. matturn 13:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Some Catholic Schools in Australia are "Independent" Schools and are called "Independent Schools" even though they are Catholic. Many of the Independent Catholic Schools are high-fee paying such as St Ignatius, Sydney and Loreto, Melbourne. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steve Stefan (talk • contribs) 22:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC).
So a minority of Catholic schools are independent of the larger Catholic education bodies, pitch themselves at the same social strata as the most prominent "Independent" schools (unlike the majority of Catholic schools), and call themselves "Independent" on occasion. Looking at the websites of the two schools Steve has mentioned, the first calls itself a "Catholic" school, while the send calls itself an "Independent Catholic" one. I will update the article accordingly. matturn 10:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Juniors separated in NSW?

The article states that juniors are separated in primary school in NSW for several years. This just does not tally with my personal experience. Mattabat 13:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


Minimum 'starting school age' table

The column showing the minimum age for beginning school was not correct for some of the states. It did not match the data from the original source, nor the column next to it, nor what the situation is in reality (at least in the ACT). So, I corrected it. Please feel free to revert my edit, if you believe I am wrong. Rai27 13:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

References

The infobox needs referencing. Auroranorth (!) 13:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

NSW Year 12

NSW year 12 starts in term 4 of that year. Should that be expressed in the table? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.169.16.215 (talk) 03:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

orphaned section

The following text came from one of the articles now merged into state school. It seemed to be too broad to leave there, as it also covers independent schools, but without it the coverage of Australia is rather minimal. I'll leave it to the editors here to decide if it should be merged into the Australia section of that article or not. — kwami (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

copied text

Education in Australia follows a three tier model: primary, secondary and tertiary education. Education is primarily regulated by the individual state governments, not the federal government. Education is compulsory up to an age specified by legislation; this age varies but is generally 15 or 16, that is prior to completing secondary education.

Under the Australian Government’s Schools Assistance (Learning Together – Achievement Through Choice and Opportunity) Act 2004, all education authorities, including non-government schools, have now committed to implement a common school starting age by 1 January 2010 and a common description (nomenclature) for the year before Year 1 and the two years before Year 1.

Post-compulsory education is regulated within the Australian Qualifications Framework (AQF), a unified system of national qualifications in schools, vocational education and training (TAFEs and private providers) and the higher education sector (mainly universities).

State or

Territory

Minimum

age

Age in the year

before Year 1

Compulsory age Nomenclature year

before school

Nomenclature year

before Year 1

NSW 4.5 Turn 5 by 31 July Year in which

children turn 6

Pre-school Kindergarten
QLD 4.6 By 2007, turn 5 by

30 June

Year in which

children turn 6.64

Kindergarten /

Preschool

Preparatory
VIC 4.8 Turn 5 by 30 April Year in which

children turn 6

Kindergarten Preparatory
WA 4.6 Turn 5 by 30 June Year in which

children turn 6.6

Kindergarten Pre-Primary
SA 4.5 Continuous entry in the

term after 5th birthday

Year in which

children turn 6

Kindergarten Reception
TAS 4.5 Turn 5 by 1 January Year after turning 5 Kindergarten Preparatory
ACT 5.0 Turn 5 by 30 April Year in which

children turn 6

Pre-school Kindergarten
NT 5.0 By 2006, turn 5 by

30 June

Year in which

children turn 6

Pre-school Transition
Primary and Secondary
A primary school in rural Victoria.

Primary and secondary education may be provided by:

  • Government schools (also known as State schools, or public schools)
  • Independent schools (the older of these institutions are sometimes called Public School)

There has been a strong drift of students to independent schools during the past decade.[citation needed]

Government schools educate the majority of students and do not charge large tuition fees (most do charge a fee as a contribution to costs). The major part of their costs is met by the relevant State or Territory government. Independent schools, both religious or secular (the latter often with specialisations), may charge much higher fees.

Whilst independent schools are sometimes considered 'public' schools like their English counterparts (as in the Associated Public Schools of Victoria), in some states of Australia, the term 'public school' is usually synonymous with a government school.

Government schools can be divided into two types: open and selective. The open schools accept all students from their government defined catchment areas, while selective schools have high entrance requirements and cater to a much larger area. Entrance to selective schools is often highly competitive. In Victoria, for example, more than 3000 applicants sit the entrance exam each year competing for the 600 available places at Mac.Robertson Girls' High School and Melbourne High School.

Conflicts between tables for early year names

While looking at this page to try to sort out the different names for early years across states/territories, I noticed that there are some discrepancies between the table in the Comparison of ages and year levels across states and territories section and the Age to be in school section. For example, the first table lists kindergarten as immediately preceding Year 1 in WA, but the second lists that year as "Pre-primary". Similar discrepancies exist for Tasmania, South Australia, and Northern Territory. I believe the second table is correct, but could someone with more knowledge help sort it out? Blurble (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

history ?

It's depressing just how little is in this article about the history of Australian education. There don't appear to be any other articles on it either. --Biatch (talk) 06:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

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Text from Secondary education -wrong place

I have rm this text from Secondary education as it too detailed- can you use it somewhere here

Each state and territory has its own format of Year 12 matriculation:

Cheers --ClemRutter (talk) 16:30, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Why was the graph removed?

Hello all!

There used to be a handy graph that listed the differences between year levels in each state. But it' since been removed.

You can see what I'm talking about here. Under "Comparison of ages and year levels across states and territories" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Education_in_Australia&oldid=714913541

Any particular reason why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.166.219.12 (talk) 06:45, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Budget

The budget information in the infotable is self contradictory. It indicates that the budget is $450 million but 5.1% of GDP. 5.1% of Australian GDP is closer to $55 billion AUD. The $450 million budget appears to be funding for the federal Department of Education, a body with responsibility for oversight only - school and university funding do not come directly out of its budget. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2407:7000:820E:1C30:9920:50C9:D0FE:6549 (talk) 01:19, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion: List of open access repositories in Australia

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of open access repositories in Australia is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. -- 12:43, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Open access to scholarly communication in Australia

A list of open access repositories in Australia was deleted from en:Wikipedia on 9 April 2018. The wikicode is here. -- Oa01 (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal: Merge from Government and non-government education in Australia

There has been discussion at Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board#Nomenclature of Australian schools that Education in Australia would benefit from a definitions section (for types of pre-schools, primary schools, secondary schools, vocational tertiary institutions and universities). As a first step in creating the definitions section, I propose that Government and non-government education in Australia be merged into Education in Australia. Some of the content is duplicated and, while the article will expand, it is appropriate in light of the need to create definitions. Rangasyd (talk) 15:06, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

There is extensive discussion at Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board#Nomenclature of Australian schools that is of relevance to this article and forms the basis under which the merge has been completed. Rangasyd (talk) 16:26, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk content transferred from the previous, now merged Talk:Government and non-government education in Australia

Catholic School Fees

The article as it stands claims that "Most Departmental Catholic Schools charge no more than what an average government school would charge" - however government schools are free in Australia. Have cut out that sentence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.184.84.216 (talk) 06:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Sources

This is a very well writen article, but there is very little source material Scatterbrain 29 Sep 2007 14:18 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 20:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I intend to use these sources, but it may take some time to for me to sort through all of them and in the intention to improve this article as soon as possible I will provide them here so others may use them if they wish; so as to speed up improvement of this article:

Shadowmaster13 (talk) 05:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Merge

you agree with what? -- PBS (talk) 03:38, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Merging Independent school (Australia) with this page Shadowmaster13 (talk) 04:37, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Why? -- PBS (talk) 06:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
I think that the Independent school article covers similar territory and is not specific enough or sourced enough and that it should be merged with this article which would improve this artiles coverage. Shadowmaster13 (talk) 10:43, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Education in Australia/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I was just wondering about the part of this article where is states "They [public schools] charge minimal fees". I haven't edited this, because I'm not certain about it's validity. I know that I have never attended or worked in a public school that charges a fee (although some ask parents for a financial contribution, these are not compulsory). There is no example given of such a school. Perhaps it's specific to one state, although the article is written as though it applies to the whole of Australia. Dazcha 06:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 06:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 03:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Is this (Public V Private) dichotomy the best one to use?

There is some significant confusion in the article, starting with the types of schools being discussed.First, I refer you to the following categories, as used by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS):

Schools in Australia may be classified as either government or non-government schools. Government schools are the direct responsibility of the Director-General of Education (or equivalent) in each state or territory and receive funding from the relevant state or territory government. Non-government schools can be further classified, based on self-identification of the school’s affiliation. Non-government schools are grouped for reporting as Catholic (including Catholic affiliated independent schools) or independent (other non-government schools, including Anglican). Non-government schools operate under conditions determined by state and territory government regulatory authorities and receive funding from the Australian Government and relevant state or territory government
 – Primary and Secondary Education. 1301.0 Year Book Australia 2012. ABS. Retrieved on 15 February 2019.

Consider also that Private schools may be said to be those that are not open to the public, while many non-government schools are in fact open to the public, albeit some have conditions regarding geography, religious affiliations and fees etc. Further, the article seems to be a bit confusing in that it sometimes conflates 'Private' with 'Catholic'. While both are non-Government schools, per the ABS, this ignores all 1. the other religious and 2. secular 'non-government' schools. I absolutely agree that the Catholic schools are the largest sector of non-government schools, but not everything that is true of Catholic schools is universally true of non-government schools, and vice verca There are some other less significant matters that I'll edit in the article as it stands, but ... I'd suggest that the search result for "Public and Private etc" should redirect to this article, retitled as "Government and Non-Government etc", and that the intro be re-written along the lines of the ABS (or similar) definition. A note on the terminology explaining why the distinction (Gov v Non-Gov as against Pub v Priv) has been applied could be included if it was thought to be helpful. Then the rest of the article will need copy editing to make the categories consistent with the change. I'm happy to do the re-write of the intro and so on, but I wouldn't know where to start on setting up the re-direct, and I certainly wouldn't be doing the latter without discussion and consensus. So ... any thoughts? Wayne 04:49, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

I put the same question on the Education In Australia Project talk page. I have had no response to either. Move done (redirects also.). Along with significant copy edits to reflect the change. Along with other copy edits for clarity and (sometimes) accuracy. I've reviewed most of the ref links on the page, and most of them are a) rubbish and b) dead. I've tagged some of the dead ones and will come back to attempt to locate some better and current refs. Wayne 16:05, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Before I 'unwatch' this article, a note that I have updated, repaired, replaced or deleted all of the dead ref links. I know the article needs more work, but I'm going to move on and let other voices take it up. Wayne 14:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
There is significantly further discussion on this issue (and beyond) at Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board#Nomenclature of Australian schools. Cheers Rangasyd (talk) 10:08, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

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