Talk:Emperor Keitai

Fringe theory?

How best to handle this claim is unclear:

In Korea, some scholars argue that Keitai is Konchi(곤지, 昆支), a son of King Munju of Baekje or a brother of King Muryeong of Baekje, because in Yamato Kana Ōdo(男大迹) is from 大人 and Konchi(곤지) also means 大人(big man). <:ref>현대 일본어는 백제어에서 출발 Chosunilbo<:/ref> They claim he is a brother of Muryeong of Baekje with the inscriptions on the Suda Hachiman Shrine Mirror.

Consensus decision-making may be able to resolve the plausible questions raised by these sentences. --Tenmei (talk) 00:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The reference is a major news paper in Korea, so I supposed it is a well established theory. --Cheol (talk) 09:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

For this kind of claim, this single article in Chosun Ilbo -- without more -- establishes only a tentative foundation. I don't dispute that this theory has a place in this article, but it does seem to fall into the category of non-standard claims. For this reason, I guessed that closer scrutiny was appropriate.

See also: Verifiability § Exceptional claims require exceptional sources

See also: Wikipedia:Fringe theories

I wonder if other reliable sources can be found to help explain this theory in a clearer or less speculative manner? For example, the work of Christopher Seeley stands apart from the newspaper articles:

PROPOSED TEXT + Notes & References to be added
The inscription on the Suda Hachiman Shrine Mirror has been construed to suggest a Korean connection;¹ and some scholars have taken this further by theorizing an implied fraternal relationship between the Muryeong and this legendary Emperor of Japan.² Korean scholars have theorized that Emperor Keitai may be Konchi of Baekje (곤지, 昆支), who was a brother of Muryeong of Baekje. If so, then this legendary figure would also be the son of Munju of Baekje.³

Regardless of speculation about Keitai's parentage, it is well-settled that there was an extended period of disputes over the succession which developed after Keitai's death. The confrontation between adherents of two branches of the Yamato, pitting the supporters of sons who would become known as Emperor Ankan and Emperor Senka against those who were backers of the son who would become known as Emperor Kimmei.⁴

Notes

¹ Seeley, Christopher. (2000). A History of Writing in Japan, p. 19 n10.

² Kim Yong Woon, 현대 일본어는 백제어에서 출발 Chosun Ilbo (Seoul). July 21, 2009; So Jin Cheol (원광대 객원교수). 금석문으로 본 백제 무녕왕의 세계 (May 22, 1997). Wonkwang University Museum.  ; SearchChina.co: 韓国で「日本語起源は百済語」説、中国で「またか！」の声

³ 야마토 왕조의 중시조, 게이타이천황은 무령왕의 아우 (Emperor Keitai is a brother of King Muryeong of Baekje). Pressian (Seoul). December 5, 2008;

⁴ Hall, John Whitney. The Cambridge history of Japan: Ancient Japan, Vol. I., p. 154.

References

• Kim Yong Woon (2009). History and the Future are One (천황은 백제어로 말한다). Seoul.
• Seeley, Christopher. (1991). A History of Writing in Japan. Leiden: Brill. 10-ISBN 9-004-09081-9; 13-ISBN 978-9-004-09081-1 -- reprinted by University of Hawaii Press (2000). 10-ISBN 0-824-82217-X; 13-ISBN 978-0-824-82217-0

Do you agree that it would be helpful to identify sources other than Chosun Ilbo and Pressian which amplify this theory? --Tenmei (talk) 15:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Would you confirm the second reference, Seeley, Christopher. (2000), I could not reach the book with the pointer you linked. --Cheol (talk) 01:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I'm sorry to have inconvenienced you. I seem to be having difficulties linking to specific pages ... and I can't figure it out. One or both of these should serve our purposes. --Tenmei (talk) 01:58, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Seeley, Christopher. (2000). A history of writing in Japan, pp. 17-19.
• Seeley, Christopher. (1991). A history of writing in Japan. Leiden: Brill. 10-ISBN 9-004-09081-9; 13-ISBN 978-9-004-09081-1 -- reprinted by University of Hawaii Press (2000). 10-ISBN 0-824-82217-X; 13-ISBN 978-0-824-82217-0

Thank you for the clarification. As you mentioned the both are not related to the theory. It does not provide evidences and even does not concern about the theory.

Among Korean intellectual people, there are some who believe the royal families of two ancient kingdoms had close relationship. 'Konchi, brother of Muryeong' theory constitutes one element of the belief. You said the more concrete reference we need. Actually Chosunilbo wrote about a book which contains the 'Konchi, brother of Muryeong' theory. The book name is '천황은 백제어로 말한다'. The book will be published in Japanese simultaneously. It could be a good reference.

Kim Woon-Hoe is a popular historian who wrote a few books about ancient history of east asia. The article about Suda Hachiman Shrine Mirror explains his theory. I suppose it is his consist claim and many people accept it as an alternative theory. --Cheol (talk) 05:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I found one more reference on Keitai and Muryeong's brotherhood. A lecture of Wonkwang University in Korea presents the brotherhood. It's based on inscriptions on Suda Hachiman Shrine Mirror. You can find '이 때 사마는 왜국에 있는 자신의 신하인‘男弟王’(『日本書紀」의 繼體天皇으로 보임)에게 鏡을‘하사’하면서 그의 장수를 기원했던 것이다.', which means 'Sima gave the mirror to his brother King(Keitai in Nihon shoki)' --Cheol (talk) 06:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

As you can see, in the "PROPOSED TEXT" above, I have tentatively added the supporting material which you provided. Please don't hesitate to edit any part of I've done.

Do you think this is now ready to solicit a third opinion, or would you like to invest a little more time in trying to make this paragraph stronger? I think it is still quite weak.

When I moved this short paragraph from the article, I believed that the sentences did not enhance the quality or credibility of the article. Since Emperor Keitai is a legendary figure, I would expect a great deal of flexibility in what can be reasonably incorported into this article. At the same time, I wonder if my application of Wikipedia's flexible standards could be too strict? As I understand the term, this remains a "fringe theory;" but perhaps when the new book by Kim Woon-Hoe is published next week, our collaborative work will be able to proceed with specific facts and with logical deductions drawn from those facts? --Tenmei (talk) 20:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree to copy the proposed text to the article. If they find another consensus, they could make some modifications. --Cheol (talk) 04:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Cheol -- When 천황은 백제어로 말한다 is released next week, perhaps it would be helpful if you were to add the ISBN link to the bibliographic reference source citation. --Tenmei (talk) 14:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)