Talk:Epik (domain registrar)
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This page about Epik contains unbalanced, past facts which can't be verified. Allegations on the content that was previously hosted. Removal of the page/misleading content asked, or we can precise the past of the company (and explicitely say it was in the past, History section?) and add their answer to the claims made. However, Wikiedia is not a place for such debates, and the deletion of the page might be better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 09:13, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- If you feel the article should be deleted you will need to nominate it for deletion using WP:AFD. The best solution is to update the article using reliable sources to show the updates are accurate. ~ GB fan 11:19, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
- Please be specific about what is unverifiable, or what is no longer true and needs to be changed to past tense. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:09, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Proposal to change the lead paragraph for Epik
Neutral request only
Ive noticed that Godaddy and Dynadot have a certain general format and historical facts are mentioned in the history section of each of these registrars, i was wondering instead of the second half of the sentence at the epik.com article replacing it with epik.com's customer count like the other registrars. And then taking the second part of the first sentence and second sentence in the intro paragraph and adding it to the history section of epik.com. ty. Wess12345 (talk) 23:32, 19 April 2020 (UTC) — Wess12345 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Hi, Wess12345, did you see the section above this one? That's what the discussion is about. Per MOS:LEAD, article leads should summarize the rest of the article, and so omitting any mention of Epik's services to far right organizations would fly in the face of that. I certainly have no objection to more information about Epik being added to the lead (if it is also added to the article body, of course) but there has been a bit of a dearth of reliable sourcing on Epik outside of its connections to the far right. If you know of any, by all means please link it here.
- There have been a lot of comparisons between the Epik article and the GoDaddy/Dynadot articles in the offwiki conversations about this page. What people seem to be missing is that Wikipedia articles reflect what is written about their subjects in reliable sourcing. In the case of Epik,
almostall reliable sourcing focuses on Epik's services to far-right organizations. In the case of GoDaddy, it is a much larger organization that has received considerably more media coverage, about a wide variety of topics to do with their business. In the case of Dynadot, well, there is a notice on the top of that article suggesting it may not even be notable enough for Wikipedia, and that it is suspected to have been written by someone with a conflict-of-interest. The sourcing on the Dynadot page actually seems to largely focus around their involvement with controversies as well (in their case, with Wikileaks) and I would be surprised to not see that in the article lead if it wasn't for the notices suggesting that someone affiliated with the company has used Wikipedia to try to advertise their services. I would certainly consider going to try to help out with that article, but if you've followed any of the offwiki conversations yourself (which I assume you have, as your request is very similar to some suggestions I've seen there) you can probably understand why I'm not leaping to involve myself further with articles about domainers. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi there, I do have to mention that the goal and objective of the proposed changes above was never to *omit information provided by reliable sources*. It was to simply format the lead in a way that was similar to other registrars. Please take Dynadots and GoDaddy's Wikipedia page as an example. There is no effort here on my behalf in this thread to omit any information in regards to support or prior controversy. There is only the effort to reflect the page appropriately with what the services rendered actually are. As always, thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies.NameShiba (talk) 01:03, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- @NameShiba: Unless I am mistaken, you and Wess12345 here share the goal of removing from the lead the information about Epik providing services to far right organizations. Is that correct? I am aware neither of you are suggesting it be removed from the article completely. As for adding information about what services Epik provides, as I have said repeatedly, we will need sourcing for that. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:26, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi again Gorilla, I was scouring the net far and wide and found some interesting takes with sources. Please review.
- ♦ WhoIs data innovation unique to EPIK. https://domainnamewire.com/2018/01/16/epik-takes-whois-search-counts-another-level/
- ♦ Domain Graduate incorporation by EPIK https://domaininvesting.com/domain-graduate-acquired-by-epik/
- ♦ EPIK Forever domain services: https://domainnamewire.com/2018/10/30/the-economics-of-forever-domain-registrations/
- ♦ EPIK denying additional services to 8Chan after the El Paso tragedy and attempted to offer help to liquidate the domains https://www.geekwire.com/2019/epik-reverses-course-seattle-area-web-services-company-will-not-host-8chan-following-shooting/
- ♦ EPIK domain marketplace notable sales https://www.thedomains.com/2019/08/14/doto-com-sells-for-69995-on-epik/
All other articles that I could reference based on news.google.com for searches in regards to additional information would not be able to be counted due to them being press releases /PRNewsWire/ which has included topics such as bitcoin associations and domain industry conferences. Thank you once again. NameShiba (talk) 02:34, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- @NameShiba: Thanks so much for searching for and providing sources! Seriously, I really appreciate you doing that. I am pretty sure that the domainnamewire/domaininvesting/thedomains sources won't be usable—see Britishfinance's comments above about non-independent trade sites. They also seem more like blogs to me than what we normally accept as reliable sources—in fact the domaininvesting.com site says "Elliot's Blog" right at the top... It's also mostly just a copy of an email the author received. The two domainnamewire.com posts appear to be based off a forum post by Rob Monster, and an in-person conversation between the author and Mr. Monster. The thedomains.com post also appears to be directly sourced from a forum post by Monster. However I would love to get more input on the viability of these sources from other editors here, because I could be wrong.
- GeekWire should be usable as an independent source, though—I know it's pretty widely used on Wikipedia and appears to be considered reliable per (an old) RSN discussion. I'm not sure there's a whole lot in that article that can or should be added to this one, though—this article already says that Epik reversed course on their decision to host 8chan. The other information in that piece is primarily background on 8chan that already exists in this article, and then excerpts from an Epik press release and comments from Mr. Monster as well as a Voxility spokesperson.
- As for the press releases, yes, you are correct that those can't be used. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
@Gorilla -- there is something that deeply troubles me about the post above.
- GoDaddy a major competitor has not just one, two, or three sources that are on the not accepted list for this page. They have 6 sources from either direct press releases from GD or the sources argued above.
- 32. "Entrepreneurs Can Now Easily Sell Everywhere with the Launch of GoDaddy Marketplaces". prnewswire.com. Retrieved 10 April2019.
- 35. "GoDaddy goes vertical with Neustar registry acquisition". Domain Name Wire | Domain Name News. 2020-04-06. Retrieved 2020-04-07.
- 36. "Go Daddy Marches Toward $1 Billion| Domain Name News & Views". Domain Name Wire | Domain Name News & Views. 2010-08-17. Retrieved 2016-11-21.
- 102. "Domain Name Wire. "GoDaddy Deletes Domain Name for Inaccurate Email Address." February 27, 2007". Web.archive.org.
- 103. "Domain Name Wire. "GoDaddy Responds to Deletion Over Invalid Email Address." February 28, 2007". Web.archive.org.
- 104. "Domain Name Wire. "Has GoDaddy Done a 180 on Invalid Whois?" November 2, 2007". Domainnamewire.com. Retrieved 2009-04-20.
I feel in effort to be impartial over the source material -- that other registrars using their own press releases and unverifiable sources which you have mentioned could be seen as a contradiction to keeping the source material neutral and non biased. NameShiba (talk) 03:04, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- @NameShiba: I fully agree, those sources absolutely ought to be removed from the GoDaddy article. But just because poor sources are used in another article does not mean poor quality sources can be added to this one—it means they ought to be removed from that one. Hopefully someone does so shortly, but it's not going to be me—as I've already written to another poster here I think I've learned my lesson about getting involved with articles to do with the domain industry for the time being... Until I finish having to deal with this fiasco I wont be jumping into more. I have added a tag, though, to alert others to the issue. If you have more concerns about the GoDaddy article, the best place to address them is at Talk:GoDaddy. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Suggestion. An appropriate replacement for the lead-in is the factual quantitative numbers by the registry. Which is how many registrations the registrar currently has and number of employees that are currently employed by the company. see @Godaddy    the way that GoDaddy's lead-in is the equivalent to what I am asking and pleading on behalf of neutrality in this post. See at GoDaddy   the mentioned articles and sources in the lead is the level of fairness in respect to this registrar that I am asking without whitewashing any of the truth behind the facts based articles presented. This is for pure neutrality of the lead-in while the facts are what they are. Nobody can revise. If the main competitor's lead reads as such despite their censorship controversies -- why does Epik not receive a similar lead-in? Thank you as always. NameShiba (talk) 03:27, 20 April 2020 (UTC) I have an appropriate and factual based source for the quantitative aspects of the company's number of domain registrations that I will link below. NameShiba (talk) 03:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- @NameShiba: No objection to those numbers being added to the article if you can find good sources for them. Not sure they should go in the lead, but if other editors think they ought to I also won't stand in the way. But I remain firmly of the opinion that Epik being known for providing services to far right organizations should remain in the lead—literally all of the coverage of Epik describes them in the context of their services to Gab, 8chan, etc. That is not the case for GoDaddy—although they have had more than their share of controversies (I am old enough to remember the SuperBowl ad), they are not singularly notable for them. I will again remind you that Wikipedia articles are created based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and arguments need to be based in those. Arguing that we ought to be emulating one article chosen from the millions of articles on Wikipedia is generally frowned upon in Wikipedia discussions (WP:OTHERCONTENT). GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:36, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi there, updating with the source.
- Registrar Owl keeps records across all registrars to determine registrar ranking and popularity and total number of domains being hosted under the registrar.
- According to Registrar Owl -- Epik has 499,626 domains registered. Cheers! And thank you for taking the time out to reply. NameShiba (talk) 03:40, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- I don't object to including number of registered domains in the article. I think the insistence on comparing Epik to GoDaddy is odd, as Epik is not on the scale of GoDaddy per registrarowl. It would be more appropriate to compare the Epik article with articles on similarly ranked registrars, such as DNC Holdings, Reg.ru, AmazonRegistrar, OnlineNIC, Launchpad. But Wikipedia doesn't have articles on those, because they're not notable. Epik would not be notable enough for an article either, except for its involvement in controversies. I cannot find a single reputable independent source that mentions Epik without also associating it to Gab and similar organizations. Epik is in the encyclopedia because of its associations, it has no other claim to notability. Schazjmd (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Just noting here (this conversation got split a little bit): I added that Epik is the 22nd largest registrar in the US, but omitted the specific number of domains because the two sources conflict. I suspect they're just measuring differently, but since they agree on ranking and not on the specific numbers I've included the former but not the latter. As for your comments on the Epik/GoDaddy comparison, I agree completely. GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:13, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
AFD deletion submission
- Hi there, I have nominated this article for AFD.
- Please feel free to review. Thank you! NameShiba (talk) 00:52, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
Would it be possible to make an edit on the first paragraph at least? A lot of companies have a bad history, but it shouldn't be the first thing showing up on Wiki See Tucows page for example 2A02:A03F:BC7D:B700:E55B:A4BB:10B6:8BE0 (talk) 13:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Please read this section that you've posted your question in, as it begins with someone asking the same question you just have. Right now consensus appears to be against making a change to the lead, as Epik's decision to provide service to far-right organizations is its primary (if not sole) source of notability. If you have a specific suggestion for a change, feel free to suggest it here, but I'd recommend reading the rest of the conversation first so we don't end up repeating ourselves. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:36, 30 April 2020 (UTC)