Talk:FET y de las JONS

Requested move 4 September 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to FET y de las JONS per convincing nom, unopposed. No such user (talk) 14:23, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

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Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista → FET y de las JONS – Under WP:NAMINGCRITERIA and considering WP:NCPP. A quick search in Google Books gives around 3000 results for FET y de las JONS, compared to 885 for Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista or 322 for its English translation, making the proposal more recognizable in English reliable sources as per WP:COMMONNAME. FET y de las JONS also improves over the current title in being more natural and concise (the current title is absurdingly long and is not one a reader would likely search for), while being equally precise and with no difference on consistency (the current one doesn't look like it was thought of to be specifically consistent with anything else, but rather, because of it being the full Spanish name of the party). A quick glance to the page's history reveals that this article was moved several times in the past to other random titles, albeit in a somewhat chaotic way and without a true discussion. Impru20 (talk) 22:22, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Comment from nom Correcting myself, it seems like FET y de las JONS could also be more consistent with other articles, with Falange Española de las JONS and Falange Española de las JONS (1976) not spelling out the whole "Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista" wording. Impru20 (talk) 00:24, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Infobox

It's been a while since a plethora of IPs and registered users alike have been adding up fancruft to the infobox of this article. Infoboxes are not intended to be a channel for the streaming of original research, they are not intended to become a a memorabilistic altar of medals and badges and they are not intended to be continuously filled just for the sake of it, particularly if it is at the cost of accuracy and/or the cost of adding unsourced crap. This has to stop. In addition, following the 1937 Unification Decree (that is, the beginning point for this article) the leader of the party (Franco) remained in the post of "Jefe Nacional" (National Chief) following the model of Fascist party. Until he died (1975). The leader of the "party" was not the "Prime Minister".--Asqueladd (talk) 10:06, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Sidebars

There are currently 3 vertical sidebars in the entry. Are they really necessary? Forming a wall to the right of the text, they hinder any chance of adding other stuff (for example: images).--Asqueladd (talk) 10:36, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Fascism as party ideology

The party has controversy regarding fascist influence, the early rule of Franco in particular being described as a "semi-fascist dictatorship". However, to just list "fascism" as the party ideology is just flat-out incorrect and should be removed. The other listed terms/concepts are far more accurate (falangism, national syndicalism, national catholicism) --Havsjö (talk) 17:47, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

There were differences between Franco's regime and Mussolini's one, but why is it just flat-out incorrect to list Fascism as the party ideology? Please, explain, and also, Falangism was Fascism. -- 179.176.19.115 (talk) 18:30, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Because Mussolinis party had fascism as its ideology. Here the fascist Falange was just one section of the different factions merged into the FET y de las JONS, and is a group which were sideline by Franco early on. So to call this collective party which was in power both through the time of the "greatest level of fascistization" early on to the much more relaxed rule in the 70's as having "fascism" as its party ideology is wrong (and note that during its most totalitarian rule its described as the "greatest level of fascistization" rather than "fascist"). Further "falangism" was indeed originally "Spanish fascism" but "it largely became an authoritarian, conservative ideology connected with Francoist Spain". It "core ideology" was, as mentioned, sidelined pretty hard in the "flexible" rule of Franco, who is also widely agreed to personally not being an ideological fascist. This is also why the already included "falangism" makes "fascism" redundant, it covers both the ideology of early and late rule and is not WRONG like "fascism". --Havsjö (talk) 18:41, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it also merged other ideologies such as "Traditionalism" (from the Carlists), so by this reasoning, Traditionalism should be removed as well, although I can agree with removing "Fascism" in the infobox because it is redundant, also no one denies that Franco eventually distanced his regime from Fascism because of the War, for the term "fascistization" and "semi-fascist", once again there were differences between Franco's regime and Mussolini's one, just like there were differenes between Mussolini's regime and Hitler's one, it is still Fascism, also, the Falangist influence started to decline in the late 1950s, when they were replaced by Opus Dei technocrats. -- 179.176.19.115 (talk) 19:04, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Insofar FET y de las JONS was (partially?) falangist it was fascist too (as a sidenote, the FET y de las JONS cadres were also overwhelmingly extracted from the falangist "political family"). Keeping in mind that, and as long as there are sources describing the party as fascist, removing the category is a disservice. That's regarding the category. I am personally loath to the navigation templates, broadly constructed (the vertical ones are also a huuuge waste of space). Regarding the infobox, that's tricky. Possibly falangism already does the trick. In any case, I feel there is a common misconception (or poor way to frame the situation), necessarily equating the drift of the regime with the nature of the FET y de las JONS (for example: i) this infobox should not strive for describing the regime, but the organization; or, conversely ii) technocrats taking over the government to some extent does not imply they took over the FET y de las JONS).--Asqueladd (talk) 21:01, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

This actually looks like a good way to handle the page, I support it to be honest. -- 179.176.19.115 (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Defending the category Fascist parties (and/or possibly also the descriptor), we may also add that the Category:Falangist parties category is from an ontological standpoint an horror (meaninglessly semantical) and the article Falangism is not free from certain level of original research.--Asqueladd (talk) 22:48, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Fascism

According with these sources fascism was one of its ideologies:

• Blinkhorn, Martin (2003). Fascists and Conservatives: The Radical Right and the Establishment in Twentieth-Century Europe. Routledge. pp. 10–11. ISBN 978-1-134-99712-1. The Franco regime-the only European regime with a major radical fascist ingredient to survive long beyond 1945, and studied here by Paul Preston—is a useful example. Notwithstanding the aforementioned fascisant tendencies within the Spanish Catholic and monarchist right, radical fascism, in the form of the Falange (fused from 1934 with the JONS), was weak until 1936 when it began to expand rapidly, not least through the recruitment of disillusioned JAP-ists. [...] The product, like the Italian Fascist regime, was a compromise between radical fascism and conservative authoritarianism, in this case with unambiguous military and Church support. As Preston indicates, Falangism played a superficially prominent and important role for as long as it suited Franco, that is, until the mid-1940s, thereafter to be shunned into the sidings of Spanish political life.
• Albanese, Matteo; Hierro, Pablo del (2016). Transnational Fascism in the Twentieth Century: Spain, Italy and the Global Neo-Fascist Network. Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4725-3200-8. Retrieved 5 July 2020. It was the FET-JONS, the main actor in Spain, which wanted the full fascistization of the country and which was mos active during the period in trying to achieve it through the so-called 'syndicalist revolution'. This should not come as a surprise; Falange did not need the fascistization process, since it was already fully fascist from the beginning. Further, relations between Falange and Italy had become increasingly stronger since the Spanish Civil War, to the extent that Mussolini saw the Spanish party at the main vehicle capable of transforming Spain into a fully fascist country. Similarly, FET-jons also regarded Mussolini's Italy as its main point of reference and even asked the authorities in Rome for advice about carrying out the fascistization process of the Francoist regime as effectively as possible.

Rupert Loup (talk) 01:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

"Falangist" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Falangist. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 7#Falangist until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 (𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 20:03, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

Recent infobox edits

I'm proposing these solutions for the infobox due to recent edits that I've made. I've removed the bullet ideologies since they can be grouped into "Falangism" but I think it would be better if we can change it to look like National Fascist Party's page, we're just going to need sources for these claims and nothing else. Vacant0 (talk) 13:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

As opposed to Fascism, Nazisn, and Communism, for instance, very few people know what "Falangism" is and what it stands for. For this reason the bulleted list is preferable to simply listing "Falangism", which tell people who don;t already know nothing of value. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:13, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you on that. I'll look into more sources and I'll add them to the infobox. Thanks Vacant0 (talk) 16:52, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Look, it's good you are attempting to source labels but a trim of labels could be even more useful instead. All in all, besides sourcing labels, I just beg you 1) to consider a discussion on WP:WEIGHT 2) don't mix this organization with neither the regime nor the dictator in a WP:SYNTH fashion, no matter how logical or tempting it may sound to you. I'll map the thing out: This organization is widely presented in modern scholarship as a fascist one (read the cited sources, they are available), fascist as in useful and not obscure descriptor summarizing their ideology (so I don't know the point about moving the label down for some rather "nominal" labels linking to either a garbage article or to a time period). Aside from being the Spanish version of fascism, falangism —during Francoism— relates to an ideology at least as much as it does to a political culture and an identity/personality cult to "the missing one". Anticommunism reads like a disposable feel-good badge to pin on the chest more than anything (it also happens to be redundant with fascism) to begin with. Rather than a full-fledged ideology national catholicism is more like one of the two main far-right identities and political cultures of the Francoist regime (together with the so-called falangism, the more fascist one), of course located to some extent within this organization but possibly mostly located outside of it, as in rather having its ideological core on the intellectual remnants of Acción Española (for this please read Ismael Saz's Las culturas de los nacionalismos franquistas developing on the idea of the confluence in the contruction of the Francoist regime of two essential political cultures: "the national-catholic, which had the group of Acción Española as a point of reference, and the fascist of FE-JONS." ). Conversely antisemitism looks to be WP:UNDUE/tangential for the infobox, potential discussion on the body notwithstanding. Spanish nationalism is, I don't know how to phrase it, redundant at so many levels. The National conservatism label relates more to a modern (as in 21st-century or at least post-1989) construct (brought forward with some level of whitewashing purpose, right?), which does not centrally relate to this topic at all, whether you bring a random source dealing about the biography of the Ukrainian fascist Stepan Bandera (as it was the case in this article some time ago) to verify it or not. Bye.--Asqueladd (talk) 02:33, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

"Falange" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Falange has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3 § Falange until a consensus is reached. 64.229.90.172 (talk) 17:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

"La Falange" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect La Falange has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 3 § La Falange until a consensus is reached. 64.229.90.172 (talk) 17:41, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Political and ideological make-up

Greetings, I recently attempted to change the infobox's data on the parties that merged into FET y de las JONS (referred to as Movimiento Nacional from 1943 and officially rebranded as such in 1958). I attempted to add CEDA and Spanish Renovation to the parties that merged into this one, as well as change fascism to para-fascism. I believe that I may have been overly rushed in switching it, as I merely ought to add more historically factual data to the infobox: Although the 1937 Unification Decree was between the Falangists from FE de las JONS and Carlists from Traditionalist Communion, the Alfonsists from Spanish Renovation and National Catholicists from CEDA also merged into the party, which Martin Blinkhorn and Stanley G. Payne acknowledge in several sources, and all these four factions or "families" within the Movimiento Nacional went on to have several key roles during Francoism (the National Catholicists controlled the social life of Spain, the Alfonsists held control over the military and law enforcement, the Carlists held control over the Ministry of Justice, whereas the Falangists primarily controlled the economy). Now, the second edit conflict I unfortunately caused stemmed from my attempts to have "fascism" changed to "para-fascism". Historically speaking, there have been two arguments regarding Francoism's relation to fascism: Those who label it fascist and those who label it authoritarian conservative. However, more recently, there has been a consensus amongst these two groups that the regime was para-fascist, that being authoritarian conservative with a fascist component, namely the Falangists. Although Franco basically used the Falange as template for his new party and retained most of their old structure, this was due to their well-organized fascist structure for the wartime of the conflict with the Second Republic, and he certainly didn't share most of their racist and pan-Iberian/Hispanic ambitions. The Falangists were relegated to another one of Francoism's four families, something that is very evident through Franco's purge of Falangist leadership from the party during the 1940s, and Pilar Primo de Rivera's opposition to this. I propose that for a more historically factual infobox, we write that the overall party was Francoist (authoritarian conservative and para-fascist) and add Alfonsism, Carlism and Falangism to factionary ideologies, where we can add palingetic ultranationalism and fascism to the Falangism, given that it was an undeniably fascist movement. 80.28.188.212 (talk) 11:51, 17 November 2024 (UTC)