Talk:Fifth Monarchists

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Dates of the Venner revolts[edit]

There is an inconsistency in Wikipedia between this page and the Cavalier Parliament.

This Page
This threat was realised when on January 6, 1661, 50 Fifth Monarchists, headed by a wine-cooper named Thomas Venner
Cavalier Parliament page:
In December 1661, parliament was challenged by the Fifth Monarchy men under the command of Vavasor Powell and Thomas Venner, who led a succession of revolts. These rebellions were initiated as an anticipation of the arrival of Jesus to claim the throne.

The dates on the English Restoration were taken from this page so if this page is wrong please fix that page and Thomas Venner as well. Philip Baird Shearer 13:31, 5 Apr 2005 (UCT)

Having contributed to this article with many others, I do not understand the instructions posted above. If something is wrong, then fix the error rather than post vague, unsigned and lengthy comments. MPLX/MH 15:58, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Everything in common but the language". The date in one or the other article is wrong and need fixing. (I have altered the problem text above so that it is in bold). If you have a reliable source then please fix the wrong page. Philip Baird Shearer 09:18, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have found two sources which explain the dates:

  • On the George Fox page there is a sentence on his imprisonment in London in 1661 because of a "Fifth Monarchy Men" insurrection (In both revolts Quakers were locked up as some of the the authorities do not seem to have noticed a difference in the descenting sects). the Fox page backs up the incarceratation with this sourcethis source
  • Thomas Venner lead a revolt in 1660 and was HDQ for it as Pypes records:
  • 7 January 1661 Revolt started night 6/7th by the "Fanatiques"
  • 9 January 1661 "Fanatiques...are killed or taken"
  • 10 January 1661 "Fanatiques" only 31 not 500 previously belived
  • 19 January 1661 Venner HDQ

Interestingly there is an entry for the 12 December 1660 which says

I was surprised with the news of a plot against the King’s person and my Lord Monk’s; and that since last night there are about forty taken up on suspicion; and, amongst others, it was my lot to meet with Simon Beale, the Trumpeter, who took me and Tom Doling into the Guard in Scotland Yard, and showed us Major-General Overton, where I heard him deny that he is guilty of any such things; but that whereas it is said that he is found to have brought many arms to town, he says it is only to sell them, as he will prove by oath.

Robert Overton was a fifth monarchist who had been locked up by Cromwell in 1656 for plotting insurrection with his regiment which was in Hull at the time. He should not to be confused with Richard Overton the Leveller. So it is possible that this incident is linked to Venner if so it is unlikely that the January revolt came as a total surprise to the authorities. Philip Baird Shearer 09:45, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Move Fifth Monarchy Men to Fifth Monarchists[edit]

I suggest that the article is moved from Fifth Monarchy Men to Fifth Monarchists as was not just men who were The Fifth Monarchists eg Anna Trapnell. Philip Baird Shearer 13:25, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

Fifth Monarchy MenFifth Monarchists -- it was not just men who were Fifth Monarchists eg Anna Trapnell --Philip Baird Shearer 12:28, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Support Gdr 15:47, 2005 May 4 (UTC)
  • Oppose. A single substub (admittedly, a valid one) should not outweigh a Google ratio of nearly 6:1 in favor of the current title. NatusRoma 01:53, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Current name seems more common. Jonathunder 02:18, 2005 May 6 (UTC)
  • Support. violet/riga (t) 18:36, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 18:36, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

A single substub (admittedly, a valid one) should not outweigh a Google ratio of nearly 6:1 in favor of the current title. NatusRoma 01:53, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Did you do your Google search without enclosing the words in double quotes and did you exclude wikipedia? When I do it:
  • about 450 English pages for "Fifth Monarchists" -"Fifth Monarchy Men" -wikipedia
  • about 732 English pages for -"Fifth Monarchists" "Fifth Monarchy Men" -wikipedia
That is a ratio of less than two to one and a vary small set for a Google search to be a definitive method to decide the issue. Philip Baird Shearer 08:42, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

The name should be Fifth Monarchy Men. That is what they were called. It didn't change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reca (talkcontribs) 18:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)