Talk:Francesco Cilea

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Comment

Much of the content of this article has been translated from the article on Cilea in the Italian Wikipedia. Lampernist 20:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does Cilea belong in 'Contemporary Music'?

I don't think this composer really belongs in the Contemporary Music category. I'm not familiar with his chamber works, but his operas certainly don't and note that he only actively composed between 1889 and 1913 and then devoted himself to teaching. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling of Cilèa

The correct spelling uses the diacritic "è", not the standard "e". See this interesting site. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm Italian, have many books about Cilea and can assure that the correct spelling doesn't use diacritic "è" (actually, we never use diacritic accents, except for accented vocals at the end of a word). We say "Cilèa", but write "Cilea". --Al Pereira (talk) 04:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had a look when I saw that this change had been made. In Italy the accent is not currently used for his name. It doesn't appear on the theater, street or conservatory named after him but does look as if Cilea himself used it. Here's a example of his autograph [1] and here is the original score for Adriana Lecouvreur published by Sonzogno [2]

So I suppose it's OK, but JackofOz, I hope you had done some other research before making a drastic change like that simply on the basis of one amateur web site from Finland, and likewise for any other such changes you plan to make. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 05:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback, folks. I'd normally bring such a matter to the talk page for discussion first. But in this case, since the accent usually appears in the music reference books (eg. Slonimsky) that I've been reading for 4 decades, and on LP/CD covers etc, I took it that this was the accepted spelling of the composer's name; and since the Finnish website was well written (not sure how we determine a site to be "amateur", or even what the significance of that would be even if it were established) and confirmed my belief, I decided to be bold, as we're all encouraged to do.

But it is interesting that the eponyms dispense with it. Street names generally do away with all punctuation, so that's no help. The theatre and the conservatory are curious, though. I suppose this is one of those cases where orthography has been revised, and applied retrospectively. Guiomar Novaes is another such case I've recently been involved in. I et al. argued successfully to have her article shown with the orthography that she used to spell her own name, notwithstanding that she sometimes appears in a different guise nowadays (Novaes) thanks to revised Portuguese orthography. I simply applied the same principle here. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Later thought. Since it often appears as "Cilea" nowadays, maybe we need a short note in the article to explain why we show it as "Cilèa". I'm certainly not saying this move is set in stone, but if it remains indefinitely, I can foresee well-meaning editors wanting to change it back. A note would be of value in that context. Conversely, if a consensus is formed that it should go back to "Cilea", a note explaining why it's not "Cilèa" would be of value. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've figured out why the accent appears and disappears. Another example of it not appearing is this poster for the prima of Adriana Lecouvreur.[3] The Calabrian dialects (Cilea was from Calabria), use diacritic accents very freely on non-final vowels, unlike standard Italian orthography which does not use them. I don't have any strong feelings one way or another about which spelling to use in the title or article, but I agree there should be some sort of explanation as to why Cilèa instead of the standard Italian Cilea. Voceditenore (talk) 09:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How can I say that the name has no accent? why to search around the web, when all the secondary literature (see it:Francesco_Cilea#Bibliografia) doesn't use it and, above all, Italian language doesn't use it? --Al Pereira (talk) 10:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The accent can be add to specify the accented syllable and the open vowel (Cilèa, not Cìlea or Ciléa), but it is just an addition. Nothing wrong if it is specified in the incipit of the article, but not in the title. --Al Pereira (talk) 10:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure that's right from the perspective of current spelling conventions, but the composer (who died 57 years ago) signed his own name with the accent, and surely we need to honour that. -- JackofOz (talk) 11:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But this isn't Italian language, it's just an additional accent. For example, if he likes it, "voceditenore" can sign as "voceditenòre" to specify that this is the correct spelling of his name, but the Italian correct writing is "voceditenore". This is the reason for which the musicologists who wrote about Cilea didn't use the accented form.... which doesn't mean that we are allowed to say "Cìlea"! And this is the reason for which I suggested to keep "Cilèa" in the incipit (as an additional information about pronunciation), but not in the title. --Al Pereira (talk) 11:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Al, this isn't just about pronunciation, it's about how FC actually signed his name. He obviously preferred the Calabrian spelling rather than the standard Italian one, and the published scores by Sonzogno also show the Calabrian spelling. Here's another one. [4]. Conversely, JackofOz, this isn't just current spelling conventions. Even during his lifetime, the standard Italian spelling of his name would have been Cilea not Cilèa. However, the usual practice on Wikipedia is to base article naming on the spelling most often used in the main reference works, and/or how the person is most commonly known today - hence Sebastian Cabot not Sebastiano Caboto. I've added an explanatory note for now. But on thinking about it more, I think it would be preferable to return it to the original title and spelling - Cilea - and give the Calabrian spelling as well, with an explanatory reference. Voceditenore (talk) 12:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC) PS. What makes everyone think I'm a "he"? :-)Voceditenore (talk) 12:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC) usually tenors are "he" ;) --Al Pereira (talk) 12:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Well, Voceditenore, like it or not, for better or worse, in our male-dominated society it tends to be the default assumption when there's no information to the contrary. In your particular case, given that: (a) you don't give any indication on your user page that you're a female; and (b) your user name (which is based, I presume, on "voce di tenore") rather suggests a male person, as females are not especially renowned for having the voices of tenors. But now that we know, I (for one) will try to remember. But I have to say that my interactions with other WP users are not governed by their sex (to the extent that I know one way or the other in any particular case), so it makes no difference to me either way. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind if you call me "he".;-) By the way, I'm not a tenor either. I can't sing to save my soul.Voceditenore (talk) 13:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dead discussion? --Al Pereira (talk) 21:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the reminder, Al (I got sidestracked). OK, I'm not attached to the accent if the majority view is to do without it. But an explanatory note would be appropriate and welcome. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Some native speakers of the English language could write it ;) --Al Pereira (talk) 22:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved it back to "Francesco Cilea" and corrected the spelling throughout. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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