Talk:Frankfurt (Oder)

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Opening discussion

I always thought this town was called Frankfurt-an-der-Oder. Has it been changed to this form? Adam 02:28, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Me too; i came close to taking the time to use "move this page" on it. And don't fall for that "it's been changed" stuff: this is an English-language work, and formal changes like "Czechia" (even if they get forced down the throats of the natives) take a generation or more to cross the barrier between languages, and thus are not of interest in naming articles. --Jerzy (t) 08:44, 2005 Apr 5 (UTC)

I would second the above. It's hard to imagine that a town would include brackets in its formal name. I would support a move to Frankfurt an der Oder. DJ Clayworth 20:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it seems that the city decided at some date in the nineties that its formal name indeed was "Frankfurt (Oder)", brackets included! See their website. I still prefer "Frankfurt an der Oder", though. Eugene van der Pijll 08:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's correct. "Frankfurt an der Oder" reads very weird for me as a young German. I know it as "Frankfurt (Oder)", written and also more and more spoken without "an der". --de:Cmdr 03:01, 26 Jun 2006 (CEST)

In the same vein, i have never before seen anything but "Frankfurt an der Oder" or "Frankfurt a.d. Oder", and there is nothing here to justify the weird hyphens. (Think "San-Francisco" or "New-York-City"!) A Google search confirms this:

"Frankfurt-an-der-Oder"

produces in the first 50 hits nothing but the unhyphenated version. Changing back to the unhyphenated 4-word version.
--Jerzy·t 03:55, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is it true that Frankfurt means free crossing? I know of no modern German word frank, and de:Geschichte von Frankfurt am Main gives a more logical meaning: Frankish ford. --Laura Scudder | Talk 22:30, 22 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The city name is Frankfurt (Oder), both legally and in common usage; "Frankfurt an der Oder" sounds old-fashioned. Brackets are not uncommon in German to distinguish between towns and cities with the same name. I would suggest renaming the article. ProhibitOnions 21:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I should like to see some evidence for this; the city's website uses some fancy typography, most easily read as "Frankfort-Oder" without parentheses; but that comes under [[1]] This does not appear to be English usage, although I cannot blame the city fathers for being uncertain. Septentrionalis 23:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The site that you mentioned in its English version clearly uses "Frankfurt (Oder)", e.g. Welcome to the Official Homepage of the City of Frankfurt (Oder). --Lysy^talk 08:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As no-one has voiced any objection, I have put in a move request. ProhibitOnions 16:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

Already done, by User:Redvers. ProhibitOnions 11:39, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Frankfurt an der Oder → Frankfurt (Oder) – Frankfurt (Oder) is both the legal name of the city and the only common variant in contemporary spoken and written use. The present article title "Frankfurt an der Oder" is archaic.

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Support as initiator. I've lived in Frankfurt for several years; the usage "Frankfurt an der Oder" is uncommon. It's always Frankfurt (Oder), spoken and written. This is not an exceptional usage; many other German towns and cities use parenthesis around a geographical feature to distinguish them.ProhibitOnions 16:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. --Serge 23:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Name in Polish

User User:Ksenon argued on my talk page that mentioning Frankfurt's name in Polish is "plain irrelevant." (Whether the Sorbian language name is more relevant, even though Frankfurt is not a traditional Sorb territory, is another matter, but Ksenon has not removed this.) I think it would be wise to ask others whether we should include or exclude the town's name in Polish. I myself think we should Include it. ProhibitOnions 23:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lusatia_in_Europe.png - I may be wrong, but it seems Fr. is part of Lusatia. As far as the Polish name goes, I dont think theres enough historical or even cultural significance to warrant including the name. There already is a link to Slubice. Ksenon 00:24, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Frankfurt is not in the Lausitz. ProhibitOnions 12:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. Lusatia is way south. Ulritz 08:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move to Frankfurt an der Oder

Frankfurt (Oder) → Frankfurt an der Oder — Frankfurt (Oder) is recent German usage, but not English, yet. This short form is variously spelt in German: Frankfurt/Oder and Frankfurt-Oder appear to be common. It is almost unknown in English, except in street addresses. The move to this location appears to have a single !vote; I would have contested then if I'd known. Septentrionalis 15:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add # '''Support''' or # '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Support Votes

Support as nom Frankfurt on the Oder would also be acceptable, as more immediately understandable. Septentrionalis 15:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support I actually always refer to this city as "Frankfurt an der Oder".--Hús ö nd 17:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Support. If we have Frankfurt am Main then we should have Frankfurt an der Oder. That's how we have reffered to the two cities to distinguish them between themselves.

Norum 13:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Votes

Oppose. Should respect the local official name, which is now Frankfurt (Oder). The town has no English name. --Lysy^talk 17:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Nom is using the old "English usage" fallacy; the forms "on Oder" or "on the Oder" are uncommon. The city name is Frankfurt (Oder), both legally and in most common use. There are several older forms, such as an der Oder, an Oder, /Oder, a.d.O, (O), etc. Part of the reason the city insists on "Frankfurt (Oder)" is that it contains no prepositions or other words that need to be translated. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 18:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The name most commonly used to refer to this town in English is Frankfurt. Of course, this name requires disambiguation, and Oder accomplishes that. The (Oder) part of the title is not necessarily part of the name of the subject - it's just appropriate disambiguation information specified in a parenthetic remark in order to disambiguate from other uses of Frankfurt. The fact that it is officially referred to by this name is a bonus. --Serge 23:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Frankfurt (Oder) is now the official name. -newkai t-c 04:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

I've added some references indicating English usage. Septentrionalis 15:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. An der Oder is certainly not English, but the previous German form of the name. --Lysy^talk 17:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- It is the name used in English, which is what WP:NAME requires. Septentrionalis 17:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - It was used when the town was named "Frankfurt an der Oder". Now the name is "Frankfurt (Oder)" and we should use the modern, not the old name. --Lysy^talk 18:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question. Is Frankfurt (Oder) bureaucratic shorthand for Frankfurt and der Oder or is it actually read (in German) Frankfurt-Oder? I don't recall Frankfurt (Main) being read that way even though signage is written that way. Also, that the use of brackets/parentheses for article titles implies internal (i.e. Wikipedia) dismabiguation might be the only problem with a move. — AjaxSmack 02:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed read as "Frankfurt Oder". Frankfurt am Main is very rarely called that because it is by far the largest and best-known community called Frankfurt (compare, say, Newcastle Upon Tyne with Newcastle-under-Lyme). Residents of Frankfurt (Oder) generally call their city just "Frankfurt" but saying "Frankfurt (Oder)" is quite common, too, and, for example, this is how it is announced on trains approaching the city. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 09:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. — AjaxSmack 23:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

References

Frankfurt an der Oder is used by the current editions of

Encyclopedia Britannica entry
Encarta entry
Columbia Encyclopedia entry

The first two require registration, so I can't comment. The third provides a population figure that is off by 20,000, suggesting an outdated article that hasn't been updated lately. If the other two are similar, which is likely (see [2]), it just goes to show that Frankfurt (Oder) totally slipped out of the English-speaking collective (un)conscious during the Cold War, when very few English-speakers were able, or wished, to visit the city, whose name was in any event overshadowed by that of the large, important world city in West Germany. The legal name of the city is Frankfurt (Oder), which is also how it is read; "Frankfurt an der Oder" is today far less common, and to locals serves as something of a shibboleth that the speaker is a clueless Wessi. Other cities have chosen different ways to disambiguate themselves -- Schwedt/Oder, Bernau bei Berlin. Frankfurt (Oder) is how Frankfurt does it. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 10:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Move request has been defeated

Vote was 4 to 2 for oppose. --Woohookitty^(meow) 06:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Intro

Please discuss objections to this paragraph:

Frankfurt on Oder [ˈfraŋkfʊrt] is a city in Brandenburg, Germany located on the Oder River, on the German-Polish border directly opposite the city of Słubice. In German, it is referred to as Frankfurt (Oder) (formerly Frankfurt an der Oder), to distinguish it from the larger city of Frankfurt am Main. The short form, now officially used in postal addresses, is variously punctuated, including Frankfurt/Oder and Frankfurt-Oder.

The recent form is variously punctuated; what's the problem? Septentrionalis 23:39, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. It isn't "variously punctuated". It's "Frankfurt (Oder)". Brackets. Just like, say, Fürstenwalde (Spree) and Werder (Havel).

2. It's not usually "Frankfurt on Oder".

3. It's not "formerly Frankfurt an der Oder".

4. It's not only in German that it is referred to as Frankfurt (Oder) to distinguish it from Frankfurt am Main. It is also often referred to this way when distinguishing the two isn't an issue.

4. Słubice isn't a city.

5. "Now officially used in postal addresses"...?

6. Is this really appropriate in the introductory paragraph?

ProhibitOnions ^(T) 11:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. De facto, it is. See scholar.google.com The first ten citations include three slashes, the next ten include a comma, the city's own website begins with "Frankfurt Oder" (no parens) and uses a dash for the website name. The decree declaring Frankfurt (Oder) the name de jure should be included if available. Septentrionalis 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2. Frankfurt-on-Oder, Frankfurt-on-the-Oder, and Frankfurt on Oder are all used; Frankfurt-on-Oder, which is the title of the 1911 Britannica article (also the Fourteenth edition; the Fifteenth and current edition use Frankfurt an der Oder) might be preferably.

3. If you insist on Frankfurt a. d. Oder, please tweak that; but I think it less useful for an Anglophone readership. If not, I am at a loss what you can possibly mean. See a search.

All the uses I can find for "Frankfurt (Oder)" are either in German, are German addresses, or are local official usage. In short, contexts where I would expect Nürnberg rather than Nuremberg, (or Roma rather than Rome) - attestations of local usage.

4. What I found when I began editing. I don't insist either way; argue it out with the Poles. Septentrionalis 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

6. Yes, of course it is; but I will see if a name paragraph makes sense. Septentrionalis 18:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not insert your comments into the previous entry; it breaks up the continuity. To reply:

1. A stylistic graphic image and a website address are not useful references for spelling or punctuating anything, as most punctuation (including parenthesis) is not available, and case is irrelevant. The city itself uses Frankfurt (Oder), which for the billionth time now is the legal name of the city, and the term I "insist on" as the title of the article.

2. There have historically been many variants on the name, all of which are in use to some extent or another. However, as stated before, not only is Frankfurt (Oder) the legal name of the city, it is also the way it is most commonly read. "Frankfurt (Oder)" is not a new coinage, but it was also the version preferred in the GDR, leading other variants to become less common.

Many English sources are unreliable because it's a minor East German provincial city with a bad reputation that few tourists ever venture to. The few English-language sources connected with the city (the university, the Frankfurt Institute for Transformation Studies, the Institute for Semiconductor Research, the Collegium Polonicum, and the city itself) use "Frankfurt (Oder)". Comparisons with major cities that have different names in English are irrelevant; in fact, Frankfurt is further obscured by the fact that a major city shares its name.

6. There's no need for a names paragraph; "an der Oder" is mentioned in the introduction; we could mention "on the" if it's really necessary. A common shorthand for the city is FfO, as is FF, the license plate code. German cities often abbreviate to these on road signs: FF-Rosengarten --> ProhibitOnions ^(T) 19:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. ProhibitOnions is "insisting" on a position contrary to Wikipedia policy. WP:NAME#Use_English_words and its successor makes our position clear, and there is consensus behind it. The English WP uses the most recognizable name of a city in English. German usage is relevant to the German Wikipedia; the legal name is only relevant when English usage is unclear. We are intended to be read by anglophones, and to be understood by them.

2. Claiming the Britannica and Columbia are unreliable is ad hoc special pleading. Provide evidence, if you can. Septentrionalis 22:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You introduced the term "insist". There has already been a vote on the name of the article; please stop changing it. We have already provided sources supporting it. Thank you. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 23:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have not changed the name of the article; I have edited the first paragraph. If it were at its English name, the first bolded mention would properly be Frankfurt (Oder); but it isn't.Septentrionalis 00:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does this edit by Lysy evidence misunderstanding of the late !vote? It was only on where the article should be; not what it should say. It didn't even decide that. 4-2 to no consensus. Septentrionalis 20:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First you wanted "an der Oder"; then you change to "-on-Oder". The version Lysy wrote/reverted to contains both the city's official name and the most common alternative without modifiers. It avoids guesswork such as your addition of "formerly" to the second most common rendering of the city name. Its tone is more in keeping with Wikipedia's usual style. If you would like to add "-on-Oder" to the list of alternative names, do so. However, it's not all that common, and to have a bold name that differs from the article title just isn't right. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 23:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually many articles have their bold text differing from the article name; for one that parallels this, see Prince Chlodwig zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst. Septentrionalis 01:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And formerly wasn;t guesswork, unless it was ProhibitOnions', whose word I was taking on the subject. Septentrionalis 01:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Per the WP:MOS, the article should start either "Frankfurt is" or "Frankfurt (Oder) is" depending on whether we see the (Oder) as part of the name or as a disambiguator. If you change the opening paragraph, you should also change the name (which, however, has been tried unsuccessfully already). Kusma (討論) 20:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See the example of Chancellor Hohenlohe above; it is customary to use a different form in bold than in the article title; see the example above, which is more common than not, when there exists a local name. The policy would be to use the English name is the title, and the local name in the article. But the article should begin with mentioning a name actually used in English. Septentrionalis 23:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that this name is, or ever has been, used by English-speakers. The intro is therefore biased, unsourced, and erroneous. Three citations have been given for Frankfort-on-Oder; there are some signs of Anglo-American divergence on the hyphens, which is only to be expected. Septentrionalis 18:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is another option. Basically, it looks to me like what the article is currently asserting is that the name of the city is, in English, Frankfurt. The (Oder) at the end is a standard way of differentiating between individual entries with the same basic name. See John Adams (New York), John Adams (Army), John Adams (martyr), John Adams (provost), John Adams (poet), John Adams (mutineer), John Adams (educator), John Adams (physicist), John Adams (geographer), and John Adams (ice hockey) as similar examples. Like I said above, I think that this page is just following the example of all those others above and elsewhere which follow the same format. Also, when dealing with a city whose name is in another language, I would think that the best and most reasonable name to give it would be the closest German translation of the name by which it is best known in its native country. Personally, I am not myself knowledgable about the city to weigh in on that aspect. I do however think that this discussion is almost certainly the primary thing detracting from the improvement of the article. The name of the website is also dependent upon the conventions of website names and availability; citing it as any sort of "official" statement is misleading, as there is no indication of how if at all the options were limited by convention and/or availability. And I cannot see how the statement that a position is being insisted upon is in any way contributing to the discussion. Personally, I would favor the name Frankfurt (Oder) for the article, and some variation of Frankfurt am Oder in the opening of the article. I do however also agree that the official German name of the city should appear in the introduction as well. Also, there are more than one wikipedia policies in play here, so anyone who refers specifically to one policy over and above all other applicable policies is probably displaying a degree of tunnel vision. Badbilltucker 17:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Frankfurt an der Oder. The Oder is feminine, like most rivers; the Main is exceptional in being masculine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some thoughts about the article name

Today I came over this article and there where two tags warning me there's no neutral point of view. Two... Looks like User:Shanes/Why tags are evil isn't popular enough.

Now let's have a look at these tags. {{pov-title}}. Some people prefer the official German name, some prefer the old German name, some people might prefer "Frankfurt/Oder", ... just like some people prefer the term football while others prefer the term soccer. Calling this a POV is not exactly clever, neither is changing the name to one's favourite by referring to WP:NAME.

{{totallydisputed-section}} --- Wiskey - Tango - Foxtrott ?!? There's nothing totally disputed. All I see here is a supported move to Frankfurt (Oder) and a opposed move to Frankfurt an der Oder (which is very likely misspelt by a larger group of native English speakers (just like most German people misspell Szczecin and therefor prefer Stettin).

I've rewritten parts of the article which should be a good consensus. I'll request a user block for everone who puts a POV tag into the article because he or she isn't comfortable with the name.

A special message to User:Pmanderson: Behave! You've requested a move to Frankfurt an der Oder which was opposed. After that you've changed the name in the article to "Frankfurt-on-Oder" (You prefer another name now? How comes?), which was reverted for obvious reasons. Your reaction was putting {{totallydisputed-section}} into the article. Since you don't act like a user who is willing to work in a community, I'll request a permanent ban the next time you'll act in such a bad behaviour. --32X 22:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For those who are arguing about official names in German, and how that should be used as a guide to the name of this page. German municipal naming policy is not relevant to the name that this article should be under. The name this article should be under depends on the Wikipedia:Naming conventions "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." --Philip Baird Shearer 16:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The English name of this city is Frankfurt-on-Oder (or Frankfurt-an-der-Oder, in German). It's that simple. The title of the article as it stands is wrong and silly. David Lauder 13:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Is there support for another crack at this? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that ten months passed between the comment and your response, it appears that there isn't any support for re-opening the matter. Unless there's new evidence I don't support revisiting it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Illegible

The enormous infobox and the TOC produce, on this machine:

Frankfurt

[ˈfʁaŋkfʊət]

is a city in

followed by a vast empty channel. Is this necessary? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consider moving

I say that we should consider moving the article back to Frankfurt an der Oder. It is what is used by Encylopedia Britannica, Encarta, and Columbia Encyclopedia. Many maps also refer to it as "Frankfurt an der Oder". It is the official name of the town, not Frankfurt (Oder). Many people in the town do call it "Frankfurt", or write it as "Frankfurt (Oder)", as many users pointed out, but Frankfurt an der Oder is the official name of the town. For example, residents of Frankfurt am Main may refer to their city as "Frankfurt", but that is not the city's official name. Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, and Encyclopedias should use official names, not commonly used versions for their articles. I say move. What say you? RM (Be my friend)

Support Votes:

Oppose Votes:

Other Frankfurt

There is a request to move Frankfurt on Main to Frankfurt; see Talk:Frankfurt am Main#Requested move. 69.3.72.9 (talk) 04:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where Is Kleist?

There should definitely be added a section listing prominent persons who were born (or who lived at some point) in the town. The most prominent of these should be the greatest dramatist in German history: Heinrich von Kleist. Dylanexpert (talk) 01:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

The infobox tries to use a range for elevation. It fails, because {{Infobox German location}} only supports a single value. If the article used {{Infobox settlement}} instead it could use elevation_min_m and elevation_max_m and all would be well, but the specialized template doesn't support those parameters and I can't add them because it's protected. Hairy Dude (talk) 02:42, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Polish name (einmal wieder)

Resolved - the Polish name goes in the "Names" section 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:40, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@LechitaPL: Nor do we add information based on our own thoughts, either. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:33, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@LechitaPL: If you disagree, tell why, otherwise your blanket reverts just appear to be the typical case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and, as given at WP:BRD, "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes." 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:43, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The name Frankfurt nad Odrą is used by the City of Frankfurt without any problems for the purpose of promoting a cross-border agglomeration. The name Słubice is the name of Frankfurt for the whole city - but only the left-bank part of the city was incorporated into Poland after the war. There are sources for this, if you think otherwise, please provide your sources, if not, it is vandalism. LechitaPL (talk) 21:46, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@LechitaPL: "Frankfurt nad Odrą" is obviously a translation and it is not used in English (therefore fails MOS:QUOTENAME). (in the same way that "Londres" is the French form of English London - yet, despite the actual shared history of France and England (the English long had a claim to the French throne, see France–United Kingdom relations for other details), the French named isn't mentioned - I wonder why French editors aren't objecting en masse!. "Słubice" refers to the town across the river, as you say yourself. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:52, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@LechitaPL: "[3]" yields only 318 thousand results for the Polish variant (and many of those sites are actually in Polish, so...). The UK version yields half that number (and, on the first few pages of results, the only English page is the Wikipedia page). Definitively proof that that name is largely irrelevant, and fails MOS:QUOTENAME as I mentioned previously. That leaves only the Slubice part, which I will take care of later. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:30, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As for Slubice, the Polish page, pl:Frankfurt_nad_Odrą, lists it as a historical variant. Of course, it is used to refer to the city on the other side of the river, but the proper "Polish" name for Frankfurt an der Oder, as demonstrated by the Polish article, is the above "Frankfurt nad Odra", which is not used in English. As such, even if the results of the Gdansk vote applied to this page (and I am of the opinion they don't), it still would fail the criteria for having established usage of the Polish variant in English (maybe, just maybe, because, unlike some other German-name cities where there is possible historical ambiguity over the name (since they became Polish after the war), Frankfurt remains part of modern-day Germany???). As such, this warrants removal without wasting any further thought on the matter. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:51, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Regarding sources

The source I removed has, on page 21 (as numbered by the source):

"Słowino (Schlaffiihnken-See) jez., Szczecin D 3, PU II, 5, r. 1254, Slouimo.

Słowino [Sławina] (Sehławin) miejsc., łu psk B 3, PU II, 92, r. 1262, Slo1dn.

Słuch urocz., Słupsk A 4, PU II, 32-0, r. 1276, Słuch.

Słuchowo (Schloehow), upsk D 1, G, 194, r. 1342, Sulkow, r. 1414 Solchow. Może łu chowo jest wtórną nazwą a SuleeJio,vo pierwotna.

Słupa (Stolpe) rz., Słupsk C 3, PPU 257, r.1278, Słupa."

No mention of "Słubice". The map which has the Oder only goes as far down as Schwedt (given as "Swiec" [+annoying diacritics]), which is still almost a 100 kilometers north of Frankfurt (see [4]). As such, the source fails verification and does not support the statement that the town is named in Polish as "Slubice". 198.84.253.202 (talk) 15:45, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@198.84.253.202: It is in the source at the top of page 4 ("Na trzeci zeszyt przeznaczone są odcinki 'Słubice (Frankfurt n. Odrą), oraz ziemie śląskie i łużyckie, na czwarty odcinki". Number 5 7 17:46, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pings don't work for IPs@Number 57: ~~Three~~Four things:

I don't speak Polish.
If google translate is right, then it says that the map with Frankfurt is in the "third book" (and this appears to be the first). In such case, the proper source would be the third book (which actually contains the city), not this one which has a trivial mention (and is further counter-intuitive since it's a map but this city isn't on it).
The page number should have been included in the citation (instead of simply calling the reverts vandalism...)
After further thought, not only the disputed source but all three of them are still invalid. For the first source, the simple reason is because it's 84yrs old - at the time, Frankfurt was still one city because it wouldn't be divided along the Oder until the Potsdam Conference (i.e. 1945) - as such, the usage of this source to claim that the Polish name "Slubice" is used for the post-1945 western half of the city is as outdated as using a 1933 map to insist that Kaliningrad, Russia (then Koenigsberg, East Prussia) is in Germany.

The other two sources do not seem to make mention of the fact that Frankfurt (Germany) is a technically distinct town from it's "eastern half", Slubice (Poland), and they are also maps (require interpretation which in this case isn't that obvious), so to some extant WP:SYNTH or NOR apply and render both of them useless too. Also, there is still the pitfall of using sources which are well on their way to being a century old (i.e. both of them date from just after WW2, making them just over 70 yrs old) to establish current (i.e. 2018) Polish usage. I mean, we don't use books which refer to Danzig in reference to historical contexts (before 1945) to argue that the current name of the city is Danzig (we mention it in the article because it is used by most English sources in such contexts, but that is different, being an application of MOS:QUOTENAME). By the same token, we should use modern Polish sources if we want to source the Polish name for Frankfurt. The Polish page, pl:Słubice, clearly refers to the city in Poland and not to the German city, since the Polish city "forms a cross-border agglomeration together with Frankfurt nad Odrą". If the Polish name was used to refer to both halves, there would be no need to mention the different name for the German half... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@LechitaPL: Is using the talk page that hard? Do you have any argument why the 1934 source should be kept? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:51, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

History

The switch from 1842 to 1942 is remarkable. 2003:DF:1F30:1584:F58A:481E:D103:A27F (talk) 20:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]