Talk:Gheg Albanian

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Don't know why the person who created this article used the spelling "Gheg", when in fact is "Geg". Someone needs to correct all the references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.30.65.44 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 16 September 2005

Well I do; Ethnologue calls it this way.. More problematic is that according to IS)-639-3 it has a code aln .. and consequently i wonder why it is called a dialect .. :) GerardM 19:39, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Plz someone to correct this article cos that part saying that gheg-s are stereotipicly agressive and hostile is very unfair and so untrue cos ghegs are known for being very indulgent and friendly.

You complain about stereotyping Ghegs and then go on to stereotype the same people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.150.35.109 (talk) 09:02, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Spoken in parts of southern Italy

Gheg was at one time, and likely is, still spoken in parts of Sicily and southern Italy. If no one objects, I will add that info to the page Cosand (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:37, 14 January 2011 (UTC).

Table on dialect differences

In this table the etymologies (columns "root" and "source") must be thoroughly revised.

For instance: ne "us" has no reason to come from Arabic rather than from Indo-European (cf. Latin nos); zot is "lord" (and "mister"), not properly "god" (Perëndia); mbret "king" is from Latin imperator (and regj from Latin rex, accusative regem).

If I had time, I would check the whole list using at least the standard works: B. Demiraj, Albanische Etymologien, 1997 (or http://iiasnt.leidenuniv.nl/ied/) (which has the words of Indo-European origin only); W. Meyer-Lübke, Romanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch, 1939 (for the words of Latin origin, of course); G. Meyer, Etymologisches Wörterbuch der albanesischen Sprache, 1891.

--Zxly (talk) 16:01, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

There is also Vladmir Orel, Albanian Etymological Dictionary, Brill 1998. --Zxly (talk) 02:29, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I used Root / Related no Etymology, I add word that cognate... Gmazdên (talk) 09:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Zot is God, mister is Zotëni (Gheg) & Zotëri (Tosk)... Gmazdên (talk) 09:11, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Now I checked Kokona's dictionary again and it says zot = mister, master, god. There will often be a difference between the oldest meaning and the most frequent present-day meaning. --Zxly (talk) 02:29, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

God can be called Perêni (Gheg) & Perëndi (Tosk) cognate with protects : Prun (Gheg) & Slavic God of Thunder & Lightning Perun also known has Zevs (Iupiter Imperator ImPerô / Parô / Prun)... Gmazdên (talk) 14:34, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Where is that dialect differences table now, by the way ? --Zxly (talk) 02:29, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Someone remove it, it's Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk)... Read above or below why... 87.67.254.237 (talk) 18:24, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Gheg Origin removed by Alexikoua

Mir dita, ky djali I ka fshi informatat e orizhinës e Ghegat (Gheg), a munësh me thir ni admin ? Nemzag (talk) 13:26, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

It is unsourced. You need to cite the specific passage with a reliable source, per wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 13:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not me who added this section, but I would like that you keep it there, since it's also writed in Shqip page of Gheg, if you want source search one, and find and add, don't remove other add, please ; Thanks... Nemzag (talk) 13:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Since it's sourced it can be readded. Unfortunately I have searched for it but no results found.Alexikoua (talk) 13:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I searched and the link of add his http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gheg_Albanian&oldid=353508204, the name of source is mentioned : Author and Politician Pashko Vasa... Nemzag (talk) 13:43, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

and which book/paper does claim this?Alexikoua (talk) 13:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Check his page, and read his book, I'm sorry, I don't added, this information, but it's there, it's correct and the info is in Shqip page to, the author source is mentioned, so just keep it, please, thanks. Are you albanian ? Nemzag (talk) 13:49, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, Pashko Vasa use his source from "referring to the verse found in the Homer's Iliad, "beyond the mountains of Akrokeronis, the land is inhabited by the Giants (Greek: γίγας; Latin: GIGAS)". So I don't understand what source more you need ? Nemzag (talk) 14:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Verification of his claim, i.e. a source that says that "he sayed that".Alexikoua (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Forget about that I don't added this info but still the explication is good enough two source are mentioned author & old book. So why do you say don't sourced ??? Please re add and add the wiki code "need source", if someone else knows he will add. Also ask someone in the WikiProject Albania. Thanks. Nemzag (talk) 14:12, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Although this sounds frindge from itself I will restore the sentence with the tags, for ca. a month period.Alexikoua (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I will write in Albania Project Page for someone help. Good day Nemzag (talk) 14:24, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Why do you change the structure of phrase ? Just keep it has it is, please, you removed word Gjiant, Gegant, Gigand, Giant and added Epic is this necessary ? Nemzag (talk) 14:30, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, these words are not necessary for the context, they mean nothing, also Iliad is an 'Epic'.Alexikoua (talk) 14:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Your profile don't show babel language and where you from ? Can I ask you why do you edit albanian page ? Nemzag (talk) 15:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

In general I'm interested in Balkan related topics, this means pov removals is in the daily agenda.Alexikoua (talk) 15:14, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not specialist of abbreviation what does POV means ? Please, I would like that you keep the phrase structure of the adder, respect his contribution. Nemzag (talk) 15:54, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

wp:pov (point of view). Unfortunately no, it was completely bad written, not to mention that without a source this will not stay.Alexikoua (talk) 15:56, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok then, good bye... Nemzag (talk) 16:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Anything you need just let me know.Alexikoua (talk) 16:06, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I cannot verify a source to justify the reversal of this edit. It seems like you have taken the information in the Albanian wikipedia here, where it is sourced with Vehbi Bala : PASHKO VASA - portret-monografi, botuar në : Pashko Vasa VEPRA 4, Rilindja, Prishtinë 1989. However, here in the English Wikipedia we have to provide the page number and possibly a quote. If you happen to have Bala's book, and Bala would qualify as a reliable source, that would be sufficient to justify his claim and revert the edit. But in general unsourced paragraphs can be deleted in the English wikipedia. --Brunswick Dude (talk) 20:05, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't added this section... His this guy who added. Don't write to me for this problem, I have talked before with someone and we decided that we old one month more to let someone add source, good bye... Gmazdên (talk) 21:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Deri Sa & Derisa

Hi, the two variant exist, you corrected but deri sa is correct to... Do you speak albanian ? You replaced Board Title, may be it would be better to just keep, Toskian, Gheggian & Albania Standard, cause it's not the standard of Macedonia, Kosovo, South Montenegro & North Albania... Gmazdên (talk) 00:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I speak Albanian and have a degree in teaching it. Derisa is a conjuction (lidhez), unless it is used in the meaning of "deri sa arrita". In the sense of "perderisa", "derisa" is one word. Std Albanian is used in Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania as lingua franca, although of course Kosovo, northern Albania and Macedonia's Albanians use gheg Albanian at home. Are you one of Migjen Kelmendi followers? --Brunswick Dude (talk) 00:20, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know who is Migjen Kelmendi, I'm born in Skopje and I speak Shqip since I'm kid like my parents & family...

I even didn't know before two weeks that two dialect were used in Albania, and now, I know that I speak the Gheg dialect, I don't want to use what you call Standard or Tosk, since is clearly falsified based upon root...

I thought you were Canadian & not albanian (have you albanian blood ?)...

May be we could keep two variant in board deri sa / derisa...

You use Arrita, I use Mrrina...

And for Perderisa, I never used this word and I don't understand his meaning. Gmazdên (talk) 00:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I am Albanian by blood. These lists are kind of unnecessary anyways, as Wikipedia is not a dictionary. They are all unsourced, so someone will remove them eventually as WP:OR. If you want to do a favor to the Albanian nation, please summarize a book written by an independent linguist such as this and write a Good Article. Please understand what wikipedia is. --Brunswick Dude (talk) 00:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why someone would erase since it's vandalism, and I just added IPA, root/source & some word, to show the variation of dialect, it's interesting for any one to know these falsification... I believe Albanian Project would be grateful to know the variation. Remove it can be seen has vandalism. Gmazdên (talk) 00:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is Encyclopedia, knowledge, and what I add is knowledge for all, that's all... Gmazdên (talk) 00:50, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Word don't need source, they exist, in communication, if you want source for those word, check in google, type the word + shqip, and you will get a lot of proof of existence of these term in forum communication... Gmazdên (talk) 00:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I added link in end for Etymology, and I beginned to add Gheg word in Wiktionary... The Board List could be add in Wiktionary to, but I don't know in what page. Gmazdên (talk) 01:02, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not original research, the root are from "Albanian Etymological Dictionary" of "Vladimir Orel", I will not add page & source for each word, also this book don't use Ottoman Arabic Turkish Persian & Hindu reference, so for some word I searched by my self, based on my knowledge of the Qoran & Babylon 8 research... Gmazdên (talk) 01:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

So why don't you reference to Vladimir Orel? --Brunswick Dude (talk) 01:13, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Because his book contain error, missing word.

I don't see the necessity to add in reference, also his book his based on Tosk (and what you call Standard Albanian) and my add are Gheg word. Gmazdên (talk) 01:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

For Tosk variant I use lingvosoft Albanian. Gmazdên (talk) 01:22, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Albanian People need to keep memory for those Gheg /Tosk Variation, and Wikipedia is the best medium/media to publish at large scale (freely & internationally). I could make this board for my self only but I prefer to share with all world & Albanian Project. Gmazdên (talk) 01:26, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

And Thanks Wiki to allow anyone to share knowledge at large scale. Gmazdên (talk) 01:35, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Suit yourself. In my opinion you are waisting time here. If you are interested in promoting literary works in gheg Albanian, you can write the article "Lahuta e Malcis", which is the most important literary piece, or write more about Albanian writers in Gheg Albanian, especially the ones from Ilirida, of which you may be more cognizant than others, and can truly help wikiproject Albania. If you just want to highlight the differences between the dialects, who is that going to interest? The linguists that are interested in gheg Albanian can buy a book and read it, but how many people, non Albanian speakers are truly interested in that? What they might be interested in is the Albanian culture in Ilirida. Can you do something about that? --Brunswick Dude (talk) 02:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Listen, I'm not literature expert or book analyser, I add what I know and not what other needs and I don't write good enough English to make article by my own, I just can help for adding or correcting some word & info... If I want to learn Gheg I will listen more modern audio record, than spending time reading book using the archaic system of book scripture that ancient used for memory record. I live in +2011 not 500. Also I don't know the content of these book, perhaps I just will spend my time reading & learning falsified Tosk/Greek orthodox dialect. I never eared about book talking about dialect comparison. When I listen an Albanian Singer I can immediately identify is dialect, if it's good or not. I'm not interested learning what you call Standard Albanian. And your focus on my add in Board, remind me that you are probably Tosk, or even someone who seems to try to prevent other to acquire the code / method used for falsification of albanian word in Albania. Also write me in Albanian for Albania discussion. Thanks. Gmazdên (talk) 08:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not telling you to learn standard Albanian or any language for that matter. If you read what I write, you'll recognize that I said the opposite: expand on things that you know, such as the Albanian writers from Ilirida, or gheg Albanian writers. I would love to write in Albanian, but it's not allowed in the talk pages of the English Wikipedia, because we have to be open to everyone. One more thing. Please don't place what we say in talk pages into the talk pages of an article, that is not allowed either. For that I would suggest you undo this edit of yours [1].

I think the discussion is about that page, why to reverse ? It's annoying, I don't want to talk any more, good bye ; the root in board mean related term and not etymology... Gmazdên (talk) 11:20, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

And about Ilirida (Free), I'm consider my self descendant of Pyroman Phôthomanë Empire and of Scipio latin, the Illyrian have been exterminated by the legion, and their culture disappeared surely at 500AD... This modern theory of Illyrian origin of what you call albanian, and that I call Shqiptar came from anti-imperialist communist... Gmazdên (talk) 11:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Characters

File:Confusingalbanianletters.png

Three characters used in a Gheg excerpt.

I saw three characters in an excerpt of the Gheg dialect of Scutari. One looks like Greek epsilon, one looks like an eight with an open top part, and one is an equal sign with a verical line coming down from the first bar that comes below the second and ends in a tilde shape. If anyone knows what they mean, that would be great. Thanks in advance! Shikku27316 (talk) 19:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't know and feel I don't really have anything to contribute to this discussion. Maybe it's the same for other people? Anyway, do these characters appear in an otherwise Latin-script text? --JorisvS (talk) 08:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Interesting! Could you perhaps name the excerpt, or give it a date? Are there other non-Latin script characters in the document? The first one seems (?) to be connected to Phoenician Samekh (/s/), the second one is Greek Epsilon (E), and the third I cannot seem to find.--Zoupan 08:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I think it would be much helpful if we knew in what context the letters were used in. Perhaps we can find a corresponding standard Albanian term and connect it. The third one is an adaptation from Old Slavonic Cyrillic for ou (ȣ), also represented by ѹ, but now largely replaced simply by Modern Cyrillic у. It seems that ȣ was originally used in Byzantine Greek, now represented by Modern Greek ου. --Prevalis (talk) 00:56, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

They were found in Matthew 4:10, I think from 1870. It was a translation into Gheg of Scutari. I don't have the book with me right now, but it went something like this (I'll use = for the First letter, 3 for thee second, and 8 for the third. )

"Athèr ==a: Je3u atii: Scko, Satanàss: psè âsct sckr8uem..."

The ellipsis shows where I can't remember anymore. I'll find the book and Copy it all down. Shikku27316 (talk) 03:38, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I found the following excerpt of Matthew 4:10 in Standard Albanian at http://etabetapi.com/read/sqi/Matt/4/

Atëherë Jezusi i tha: Shporru, Satan, sepse është shkruar: "Adhuro Zotin, Perëndinë tënde, dhe shërbeji vetëm atij"

(Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.) (American Standard Version)

Judging from previous knowledge of Albanian, it seems that sc = sh (është = âsht (Gheg)) but that much is clear.

As for Je3u, it seems that the epsilon was used to transcribe the /z/ phoneme. So Je3u would be Jezu.

As noted in the excerpt I provided above, it seems that shkruar and sckr8uem are related. I would go as far to suggest that sckr8uem is shkryem (as Gheg is known to show a transition from /u/ to /y/ in certain cases). So 8 transcribes /y/ phoneme.

According to http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A1995ElbasanMs_Fig.pdf Robert Elsie], the correct form of "shkruar" in Gheg is "shkruam" (written). But the verb "shkryaj" (the Gheg version of "shkruaj") is used in colloquial writing on different websites. --Prevalis (talk) 04:35, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Based on the excerpt, the portion where it states Atëherë Jezusi i tha, when compared to Athèr ==a: Je3u atii, is not as clear. Athèr would in this case be pronounced as /at.(h)ɛr/, which mirrors the expected pronunciation of atëherë in Modern Albanian. Therefore, th in this transcript cannot represent /θ/. Now, with that being said, the Gheg version seems to involve the addition of "==a" into the passage. I'm not certain but I'm guessing "=" could stand for the phoneme /θ/.

Hope this helps. --Prevalis (talk) 04:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Atëherë Jezusi i tha would be translated as "Then Jesus (to him) said" - note "to him" is not directly stated, but implied based on the declension of "Jesuz" and the "i"). Now let's try Gheg: "Athèr tha: Jezu atii" (literally, Then said Jesus to him - Standard construction: Atëherë tha: Jezus atij). Here, the direct object is stated as "to him" ("atij" meaning "him"). Also, the verb "to say" in Albanian is them and the simple past tense of the verb in the 3rd person (in this case representing Jesus) would be tha. Therefore, = most likely stands for /θ/. I must say, whoever this writer is, had an interesting choice of letters...--Prevalis (talk) 04:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Wow, thank you! I can see a resemblance between the Gheg character and the Cyrillic з, so maybe they are related. I think this all makes sense now. I always thought Albanian /th/ stood for [θ], but I guess it isn't. Well, thanks. So, one of my reasons for putting this was because it may be relevant to the article? Now that it's solved, it would be an okay idea. (Also because I am curious). Thanks! (Oh, P.S.-sorry for acting impatient before. I'm just like that.) Shikku27316 (talk) 21:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

The modern Albanian alphabet was devised in the early 1900s. So, no, the letter th does indeed represent /θ/. It's just that in this transcrpt, which you mentioned is dated from the mid-1800s, the phoneme θ was represented by a different letter and th represented two different phonemes. Thought I should clarify, sorry for the confusion. Glad to be of help. :) --Prevalis (talk) 21:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, okay, thanks. I didn't know, because I'd seen so many things about th in Albanian. Shikku27316 (talk) 01:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Example for the vowel

These example for the vowel are in Gheg dialect, I put here the Standard version (based on Tosk) of these terms and the 1895 Gheg version from Shkodër :

IPA	LS	Written as (Gheg)	Written as (Tosk)	Fialuur i voghel Sccyp e ltinisct (Small Dictionnary of Albanian & Latin)
[ə]	ë	nër: 'among/between/under'	ndër & nën	nner & nnen (page 90)
[a]	a	mas: 'after'	mbas	mas (page 76)
[ɑ]	â	prâpë: 'back'	prapa	prap (page 110)
[ɒ]	ä	knäqët: 'having fun'	kënaqët / kënaqësi	knac (page 58)
[a ɑ ɒ]	a â ä	parâ‑pä: 'foresee'	parapa / parapá	parapa (page 95 : Para + 93 : Paa)
[e]	e	derê: 'door'	dere	der (page 22)
[ɛ]	ê	mênôj: 'I think'	mendoj	mennoj (page 77)
[i]	i	dritë: 'light'	dritë	drit (page 25)
[o]	o	kos: 'yogurt'	kos	kos (page 60)
[u]	u	kur: 'when'	kur	kuur (page 66)
[y]	y	shyqyr: 'thank God'	shyqyr	scycyr (page 139)
[ɔ]	ô	dôrë: 'hand'	dorë	dor (page 24)
[ĩ]	ĩ	hĩna: 'I entered'	hyra	hîi (page 46)
[ɛ̃]	ẽ	mrẽna: 'within'	brenda	mrenna (page 83)
[ɑ̃]	ã	hãna: 'moon'	hëna / hënë	hana (page 44)
[ɔ̃]	õ	(some dialects)
[ỹ]	ỹ	gjỹs: 'half'	gjys	gys (page 42)
[ũ]	ũ	hũna: 'nose'	hunda	hûn (page 47)

That's all Shqyptar (talk) 17:36, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Phonology

Gheg Vowels

IPA	Written as	Ancient‑Greek (Attic)	Slavônic
[ə]	ë (nër: 'under')		Ъ, ъ
[a]	a (mas: 'after')	Α, α	А, а
[ɑ]	â (prâpë: 'back')
[ɒ]	ä (knäqët: 'having fun')
[e]	e (dere: 'door')	Ε, ε	Е, е
[ɛ]	ê (mênôj: 'I think')	Η, η	И, и
[i]	i (dritë: 'light')	Ι, ι	І, і
[o]	o (kos: 'yogurt')	Ο, ο	О, о
[u]	u (kur: 'when')	ΟΥ, ου	У, у
[y]	y (shyqyr: 'thank God')	Υ, υ	Ы, ы
[ɔ]	ô (dôrë: 'hand')	Ω, ω	Ѻ, ѻ / Ѡ, ѡ

Gheg Nasalized Vowels

IPA	Written as	Slavônic
[ĩ]	ĩ (hĩna: 'I entered')
[ɛ̃]	ẽ (mrẽna: 'within')	Ѧ, ѧ
[ɑ̃]	ã (hãna: 'moon')
[ɔ̃]	õ (some dialects)	Ѫ, ѫ
[ỹ]	ỹ (gjỹs: 'half')
[ũ]	ũ (hũna: 'nose')

References

Shqyptar (talk) 05:07, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Merge

Merge Northeastern Gheg into the article? Most of that article's subject is Gheg Albanian.--Zoupan 21:48, 13 January 2016 (UTC)  Done