Talk:Great Renunciation

Great Renunciation has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: November 17, 2019. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Great Renunciation appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 24 August 2019 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the story of the legendary Christian saints Barlaam and Josaphat is based on the Great Renunciation of the Buddha?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2019/August. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Great Renunciation.

Wikipedia

DYK

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

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Prince Siddhārtha leaving the palace

... that the story of the Christian apostles Joasaph and Barlaam is based on the Great Renunciation of the Buddha? Source: "The post-Buddhist status of these narratives is apparent because they are told alongside an adapted episode from lifestory of the Buddha, in which he experiences horror at his harem and departs from his father’s palace to seek his Awakening. In Ibn Bābūya’s narrative, this becomes the story Balawhar wa-Būdāsf. The same story had a wide circulation and became incorporated into Christian narrative with Balawhar and Būdāsf becoming the two apostles of Christianity in India, Joasaph and Barlaam." (Crosby, 2014, p.101); (Mershman 1913)
- ALT1:... that according to Buddhist texts, the Buddha decides to leave his life in the palace behind because of old age, sickness and death? Source: "It was not, however, till he was 29 that he made some harrowing discoveries which would impel him to leave home. These ‘four signs’ were the sight of an old man, bent and feeble; a sick man, stewing in his own excreta; a corpse; and a shaven-headed man wearing a robe who had left home, to wander." (Smart 1997, p.276)

Reviewed: Did you know nominations/Medieval Japanese literature

Moved to mainspace by Farang Rak Tham (talk). Self-nominated at 14:50, 28 July 2019 (UTC).[reply]

GTG - Long enough, new enough, first and preferred hook checks out (by the way, if I were you I'd add a ref to the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the pair as well as the book on Buddhism, to forestall any objections). Seems neutral & well-written (if a tad dense). The lead is far too short though (not strictly a DYK point). The 2nd hook checks out, but doesn't read clearly. Earwig only finds book-titles etc. I imagine "...during the Great Renunciation" will get trimmed from the pic caption. Johnbod (talk) 03:20, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed the caption and added the Catholic Encyclopedia—good tip.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 21:25, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have now expanded the lead.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 08:12, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, still good to go. Johnbod (talk) 14:55, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Isolated content

I couldn't integrate this content well with the rest of the article, as I couldn't expand on it:

Prince Siddhārtha renouncing when 29 years old may have an astrological meaning: the number indicates growing up and entering adult life.^[1]
Scholar of religion T.H Barrett has suggested that the Great Renunciation may also be read as a political criticism with regard to hereditary monarchy, in a time when this was not yet an established tradition.^[2]
The scene in which Māra attempts to block the prince is also often depicted in Southeast Asian art.^[3]
The elongated earlobes of the Buddha without princely jewelry, as depicted in most Buddha images, are seen as an emblem of the Great Renunciation.^[4]

References

^ Mevissen 2011, p. 99.
^ Barrett, T.H. (1996), "The Fate of Buddhist Political Thought in China: The Rajah Dons a Disguise", in Skorupski, Tadeusz (ed.), The Buddhist Forum, vol. iv, Institute of Buddhist Studies, Tring and Institute Of Buddhist Studies, Berkeley, pp. 1–8
^ Strong 2005, p. 5690.
^ Hoffman, F.J. (2000), "Buddha (Śākyamuni)", in Johnston, W.M. (ed.), Encyclopedia of Monasticism, Routledge, pp. 186–190, ISBN 978-1-136-78716-4

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Great Renunciation/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 10:28, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

This carefully-constructed and well-cited article is essentially ready for GA, and I will make only a few minor comments on it here.

Thanks for the compliment.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think Brahmin should be capitalised.

Fixed.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I may do a little copy-editing for readability and flow.

Okay.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Portrait-format images (taller than their width) should be formatted with the |upright parameter.

Done.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The image "Prince Siddhārtha and Princess Yaśodharā" seems to be a 21st century painting: it should be captioned as a painting with a date (and ideally the name of the painter).

I only know that it is a modern depiction, but I ~~will~~ have contacted the owner on Commons to ask for more details.--13:17, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

~~Meanwhile, what do you recommend I do with the size? I noticed you made a note.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)~~[reply]

Oh, I understand your note now. You already made an adjustment. Well, that's okay then. Thanks!--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 13:09, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How does the image of the Chinese calendar help the reader to follow the article?

Lol. It's referred to in the last sentence of that section: but in China, the event is celebrated on the 8th day of the second month of the Chinese calendar. Is it okay?--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'd seen the text but don't see how the image assists. I'll remove it now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:30, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Alright.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What does " Borges based himself on the The Light of Asia" mean?

Sloppy writing.

Fixed three instances.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could the See also link to Celibacy not be worked into the article text?

Celibacy is not used much in RS in this context, because of its Christian connotations. Brahmacariya or Śramana is used, though. The text renounce the world in the article is wikilinked to brahmacariya. I just included the see also link because the life Siddhattha Gotama chose, can be compared to what we call in the west a celibate life.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's obviously right to link "four sights" to the article of that name, but I think the formatting is wrong: or the wording. We might say "the four sights remembered in Buddhism today" or something of that kind; or we could say "The Four Sights" or some similar formatting. But the plain lower case mention doesn't feel right.

Thanks, good catch.

Fixed.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, the links to "religious agitation" and "empathy with human suffering" seem to me just slightly too ordinary for their context. It might be best to gloss them with their Pali or Sanskrit terms, e.g. (Saṃvega); other solutions are possible, as for the four sights. Actually I see that this term is glossed further down in the "In Buddhist doctrine" section; I think that should be in the lead as well, as for dukkha which is already there.

Done, I think.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have thought "meditation" should be wikilinked in lead and main text, unless it's just too common a term in Buddhism!

That's useful.

Done.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe wikilink "iconography".

Done.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 23:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Images

All from Commons, all have licenses.

Summary

This is a fine article, well up to the required standard, and I'm happy to pass it now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Chiswick Chap! Much appreciated.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 12:42, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Prince Siddhattha and Princess Yasodhara's marriage.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[FOOTNOTEMevissen201199-1] Mevissen 2011, p. 99.

[2] Barrett, T.H. (1996), "The Fate of Buddhist Political Thought in China: The Rajah Dons a Disguise", in Skorupski, Tadeusz (ed.), The Buddhist Forum, vol. iv, Institute of Buddhist Studies, Tring and Institute Of Buddhist Studies, Berkeley, pp. 1–8

[FOOTNOTEStrong20055690-3] Strong 2005, p. 5690.

[4] Hoffman, F.J. (2000), "Buddha (Śākyamuni)", in Johnston, W.M. (ed.), Encyclopedia of Monasticism, Routledge, pp. 186–190, ISBN 978-1-136-78716-4

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