Talk:Greektown, Detroit

National Register of Historic Places Mid‑importance

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Michigan: Detroit High‑importance

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move all except Cultural Center Historic District (Detroit, Michigan). -- tariqabjotu 06:12, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Greektown Historic District → Greektown, Detroit – While the official name of this district is Greektown Historic District, the common name is undoubtedly Greektown. Since there are more than one Greektowns in existence, the Detroit qualification is necessary. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the name of this article should be Greektown, Detroit. Wikipedian77 (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question. I guess this question applies to this entire series of like nominations. Is the article about Greektown or the historic district? Do the two cover the same area or are the areas different? The naming implies that the NRHP project likely created the article since the name follows their convention. But that is not the final authority on what the correct name should be. Given that it clearly discusses the modern use and the fact that it is an entertainment district, not using historic in the name could be correct. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about both Greektown (neighborhood) and Greektown (historic district). They cover the same area. I live in the Detroit area, and I have never heard Greektown referred to as Greektown Historic District. It seems like the title should be Greektown, Detroit, and then its status as a historic district can be mentioned in the article. Otherwise, I would suggest a separate article for the neighborhood, because it is definitely notable to have its own article. I think separating the two concepts would be unnecessary though. Wikipedian77 (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I think the case has been made. If renamed, having a section with information specific to the historic district should be considered. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Thanks for supporting. This goes for most Detroit neighborhoods that currently have Historic District in the title. Wikipedian77 (talk) 21:08, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have been opposing this series of changes, which would individually drop "historic district" from the article titles - not because I think it's a bad idea, but because I think these cases should be handled as a group for consistency, not haphazardly changed one-at-a-time. But I would have no problem with treating this particular historic district as a neighborhood, since you say they are synonymous, and renaming the article to Greektown, Detroit. I would appreciate your naming one central location, such as Talk:Detroit or Talk:Brush Park Historic District (the first one I came across), where we can discuss the group of subjects as a group. --MelanieN (talk) 21:47, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This is a consolidated discussion for the following articles:

Support. I totally agree, no one calls it Greektown Historic District. Same with the others listed above. --Local hero ^talk 04:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support This seems like a sensible move, provided that these really are the names of neighborhoods. After the move the articles will need to be repurposed slightly to be about the neighborhood. This will involve at least a change in the lead sentence, possibly more if the neighborhood is larger than just the historic district. That would be worth doing and I'm willing to help. --MelanieN (talk) 23:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment this is improperly formatted multimove. --- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 04:37, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose "Cultural Center, Detroit", which is too much like having a cultural center in Detroit (a building for an ethnic community) -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 04:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm . . . with the capitalization of Cultural Center, do you think that would make it clear that this is a proper noun and therefore a specific place within Detroit? Wikipedian77 (talk) 05:02, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I wondered the same thing but I don't think this is an issue. A Google search and a Google News search both make it clear that "Cultural Center" really is the name of a neighborhood in Detroit. The fact that some people might think it means a building does not change the fact that this is the name of a neighborhood. Furthermore, if it was a building it would be named "Cultural Center (Detroit)"; the comma style is used for neighborhoods of a city. --MelanieN (talk) 13:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a good idea to have this centralized discussion. In general, I would support renaming historic districts whose official boundaries substantially coincide with the generally recognized neighborhood boundaries. Thus I would support:

Support:

However, by the same token I would oppose the following, for the given reasons:

Oppose:

Cass Park Historic District → Cass Park - The Cass Park Historic District consists of the structures immediately surrounding the open green space of Cass Park. One really wouldn't call the structures part of "Cass Park," per se. The Cass Park neighborhood is a larger area encompassing multiple blocks in each direction around the park itself. Neither the park nor the neighborhood is the same as the Historic District.
Cultural Center Historic District (Detroit, Michigan) → Cultural Center, Detroit - The Cultural Center Historic District consists of exactly three buildings, located within Detroit's Cultural Center neighborhood. I wouldn't necessarily object to including the Cultural Center Historic District as a subtopic within a larger article about the neighborhood (much as the Woodward East distric s a subtopic within Brush Park Historic District), but simply moving the HD article as is to Cultural Center, Detroit implies that the Cultural Center is much smaller than it really is.
Grand Circus Park Historic District → Grand Circus Park - Again, the Grand Circus Park Historic District consists of the structures immediately surrounding the open green space of Grand Circus Park. The Park and the HD are not really interchangeable.

Semi-Oppose:

Capitol Park Historic District → Capitol Park, Detroit - Like the other parks above, the Capitol Park Historic District consists of the structures immediately surrounding the open space of Capitol Park itself. However, Capitol Park is rather small, and my sense is that it's quite often discussed by referring to the surrounding buildings. I think the argument could be made that, in common usage, "Capitol Park" includes the surrounding streetscape. Nonetheless, technically "Capitol Park" is, well, the park itself. Andrew Jameson (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you're saying with Cass Park, Grand Circus Park, and Capitol Park. Do you think calling them XXX Park District (e.g. Cass Park District, Detroit) would be better than XXX Park Historic District, as it is less wordy and in agreement with WP:COMMONNAME? My main problem with these titles is that nobody refers to them as "historic districts" and it therefore is not in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME. In regards to the Cultural Center Historic District, I think that a page called Cultural Center, Detroit would be better because it is in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME and can include more information than a page called Cultural Center Historic District can. There should definitely be a subsection for the historic district within the Cultural Center page though. Wikipedian77 (talk) 23:45, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of "XXX Park District" because, as far as I can tell, no one actually uses that name, so it's not clear to me how it could be a Common Name. Backing up, though: Historic Districts have specific defined boundaries. I think there's a crucial difference between, say, the Greektown Historic District and the Cass Park Historic District, because when someone says "Greektown," they generally mean an area that roughly coincides with the specifically defined boundaries of the Historic District. When someone says "Cass Park," it's unlikely they're referring to an area roughly corresponding to the HD; the're more likely referring ot the park itself or the greater neighborhood. As a more obvious example, take the Laurium Historic District and the Northville Historic District. In the case of Laurium, the HD covers essentially the entire village: referring to "Laurium" is essentially referring to the HD, and so the HD article is redirected to the article on the village. In the case of Northville, the HD is only a portion of the town, and it would be silly to rename the "Northville Historic District" as simply "Northville." Andrew Jameson (talk) 16:58, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I agree with you on these three. I will remove the requested moves. Wikipedian77 (talk) 21:10, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose per the Cultural Center case. Dropping the "historical district" suffix just creates confusion and in some cases even wrong-information. --Matthiasb (talk) 19:52, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I see the confusion that could be created, Matthiasb. Did you read the above discussion? Someone also had concerns with moving Cultural Center Historic District, and MelanieN gave a good response and justification for the move. Wikipedian77 (talk) 23:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but MelanieN's response essentially reinforces Matthiasb's point: The Cultural Center Hisotric District and the Cultural Center neighborhood (that MelanieN Googled) are not the same thing, and thus in that case dropping the "historical district" suffix does indeed create confusion, if not outright incorrect information. Andrew Jameson (talk) 16:58, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am failing to see how MelanieN's response reinforces Matthiasb's point. The Cultural Center neighborhood in Detroit is significant enough to have its own article. Don't you think it would make sense to make the Cultural Center Historic District a subsection of an article titled Cultural Center, Detroit? Yes, it will take reformatting, but I think it's worth it. Wikipedian77 (talk) 15:33, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have removed my move requests for Capitol Park Historic District, Cass Park Historic District, and Grand Circus Park Historic District due to Andrew Jameson convincing me otherwise. Wikipedian77 (talk) 21:15, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.