Talk:Gwynedd Council

Former name?

Didn't it used to be called Gwynedd County Council? —Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley _{talk contrib} 15:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 14:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Current name

In response to an edit by User:DankJae on 13 April 2023, I took the liberty of checking Google Trends, which is a source recommended to determine the most common name for a topic, and there are still more searches for "Gwynedd Council" over "Cyngor Gwynedd" even in Wales.Tk420 (talk) 21:30, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

@Tk420, hi, just a note GT (and anything Google) should not be used as the sole source per WP:WIAN, although it can be used as a light reference. But I do agree that "Gwynedd Council" is still likely used for now more than "Cyngor Gwynedd" so a move should not yet occur, and the lead should have the current article title first hence my edit. Of course it can change in time. If any editors have evidence of secondary sources, like news sources, using primarily "Cyngor Gwynedd", raise them here and if you believe there is a strong case set up a RM then. Diolch! DankJae 21:34, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

oh just noticed you reverted my removal of the name from the infobox, accept it is slightly controversial either way and no strong opinions, just thought it be a sort of compromise to use the styled name in the infobox, but don't mind either way. DankJae 21:40, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Not sure "styles itself" is appropriate wording, it sounds like the name is an eccentric affectation. "Calls itself" would be much more neutral, and accurate in my view. It's simply calling itself "Cyngor Gwynedd" in the native tongue, which is the working language of the council. Sionk (talk) 08:48, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

@Sionk, open to a different wording, added that term with little thought, as a previous editor demoted the article title to {{lang-en}} in brackets (English: Gwynedd Council) against MOS, and was not sure how to explain the situation more clearly. "calls" has a more speech or quote association IMO, may be "branded"? Although I don't think council's really have a "brand". Not sure if they also changed the legal name. Technically "officially" is a correct term, although it may be confused with legally, although a council is more authoritative so has more weight. So may be "officially", "officially known as" or "officially known by its Welsh name", the latter may be too long but notes it is Welsh. DankJae 18:43, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Requested move 11 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There appears to be no clear consensus for the move at this point in time, with arguments brought that show that there is mixed use between the current and proposed title in RS. As there is no WP:DEADLINE, closing this RM as no consensus for now. I suggest a new follow up RM could be created in the future if it becomes clear that one of the titles is the clear WP:COMMONNAME between them. (closed by non-admin page mover) Raladic (talk) 03:16, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

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Gwynedd Council → Cyngor Gwynedd – There has been extensive media coverage of the local authority for Gwynedd in recent days, including and in particular by BBC News Wales. BBC News Wales (ie, BBC Cymru Wales’ English-language news service) has almost exclusively referred to the local authority as Cyngor Gwynedd - for example, in the top story on BBC Wales Today, and in articles like this one: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7v69ey47e5o Kennethmac2000 (talk) 20:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Raladic (talk) 02:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment Gwynedd Council still has a lead in Google Trends, although Cyngor is not far off. Their website and social media use Cyngor. The BBC calls them Gwynedd Council Kowal2701 (talk) 22:22, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

As a point of correction, the BBC does not call the council "Gwynedd Council". The BBC News website has a metadata tag "Gwynedd Council" (which was presumably created some time ago and no-one has bothered updating it yet, a bit like this Wikipedia article), but if you read any of the recent stories linked to via that metadata tag, you will see that they almost exclusively use the term "Cyngor Gwynedd". For example, this article, which states in its very first sentence, "The leader of Cyngor Gwynedd has refused to apologise to the victims of Neil Foden." Ie, this is not a qualified reference of the form "Cyngor Gwynedd (as Gwynedd Council now refers to itself as)" or "Gywnedd Council (which the council itself prefers to refer to as Cyngor Gwynedd)" - this is "Cyngor Gwynedd", full stop. As also already mentioned, the English-language programme BBC Wales Today opened yesterday (2024-10-11) with a reference to "Cyngor Gwynedd" - again, without any qualification. Kennethmac2000 (talk) 10:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Very weak oppose partially per Kowal and WP:UE. Also slightly WP:RECENTISM owing to the greater coverage of the council recently, we'd have to see if the proposed name persists in sources beyond just the recent spike in coverage. estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:36, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, on the basis that there are an awful lot of English language news sources (including Welsh ones) and government sources that use the name Gwynedd Council. If something has a commonly used English language name, then English language Wikipedia should use this. Sionk (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:UE if a loan word is used predominantly in English language sources, then it is English, so WP:Use English would support this proposal provided it is common name. Kowal2701 (talk) 10:57, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said, the Welsh language name isn't used 'predominantly', though it is frequently used in the English language coverage of the recent conviction of a local paedophile. Sionk (talk) 11:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Wait a few more months, if Google Trends showed Cyngor drawing near level with Council then I'd support, but it isn't there yet. Kowal2701 (talk) 11:10, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Support as most sources I can see are now using the Welsh name. Also re Google trends, locals may be just be searching up cyngor/council instead of the full name as Google provides localised results, so I'm not sure the trends will be entirely accurate to usage. Xii Xii 11:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom, UE doesn't apply since this name is commonly used in English.--Ortizesp (talk) 12:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment. Here are more recent sources referring to Cyngor Gwynedd:

• https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0r8ejvpegvo
• https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/neil-fodens-crimes-unforgivable-gwynedd-30168329

Kennethmac2000 (talk) 18:32, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Support the council operates in Welsh and uses its Welsh name, increasingly sources only use its Welsh name and to support 12xii’s point, I came across this debate in the first place from looking up Cyngor Gwynedd election results. Seems like the right choice. Sizewell (talk) 06:58, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment some sources like Cambrian, Denbighshire FP and Sky News use Gwynedd (County) Council still. So not sure, as this is just WP:CHERRYPICKED sources centred on the BBC. Do most overall sources use it to meet WP:NAMECHANGES? But I definitely do see the Welsh name now used a lot, so it can go either way. DankJae 14:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Additionally having done some more research since my comment, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar is the local authority for Na h-Eileanan an Iar in Scotland, and as this council only refers to itself with the Gaelic name, it is in Gaelic. As Cyngor Gwynedd refers to itself only by this name (the English language website refers to Cyngor Gwynedd as well), even for consistency this seems right to me, as Comhairle nan Eilean Siar is exclusively officially Gaelic-named, and Cyngor Gwynedd is the same. Sizewell (talk) 21:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

@Sizewell, Eilean Siar has used that name since 1998 by law, Gwynedd only since 2022 (not by law), so it is just whether most sources have followed since or is it still early. Eilean Siar has had a lot more time to gain acceptance and was a legal change. DankJae 22:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

That's fair, but I don't see a reason not to change. Though not necessarily by law, it's changed its presenting name, and therefore keeping Gwynedd Council would simply be out of date, especially when most of the sources will be before the change. Additionally, it should be considered that Wikipedia keeping the outdated name could have influenced sources still referring to it as Gwynedd Council, as Wikipedia can be a source of authority, at least when it comes to the names of the articles. The council calls itself Cyngor Gwynedd, sources are following, it makes sense to get with the times and recognise the update in my opinion. Sizewell (talk) 13:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a "source of authority", we follow, not lead. Wikipedia isn't to influence sources but be influenced by them. I am not doubting some sources use either name, but that nothing has been presented on which one most sources use, and we don't follow WP:OFFICIALNAMES just because. If sources are relying on Wikipedia for their naming then that is on them. DankJae 21:22, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Summarizing where we've got to so far:

• Support: 4 (including proposer)
• Oppose: 2 (including 1 "very weak" oppose)
• Wait: 1

Kennethmac2000 (talk) 14:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting based on the split evidence presented that doesn't show a clear consensus whether the current title is outdated or not in RS usage. Raladic (talk) 02:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Wait. I'm new to this discussion and relying heavily on arguments others have made. I was at weak support but have downgraded to wait because the standards for a name change are high. Usage is roughly split but leans towards Cyngor Gwynedd. It's difficult to know if this will be a stable change. I Googled Dyfrig Siencyn and of the first 16 hits, 8 used Cyngor Gwynedd, 3 used Gwynedd Council, and 5 used neither. Interestingly, Plaid Cymru uses Gywnedd Council.[1] The North Wales Chronicle is inconsistent.[2][3] -- MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫— talk 04:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, usage appears roughly split or leans Cyngor Gwynedd in recent coverage. Hence the comment about unknown stability of this usage. -- MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫— talk 04:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.