Talk:HAL HJT-36 Sitara

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Sitara - Urdu or Sanskrit[edit]

Resolved: As per discussion, the word has been attributed to Hindi.

I noticed the potential edit war brewing, and have started this section so that we can discuss where "Sitara" came from. T/@Sniperz11editssign 02:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I think we can all agree that Sitara is a Hindi word, or more specifically, Khariboli. the question now is whether its etymology came from Sanskrit or Persian, which mixed to form Hindi/Urdu. For what I know of sanskrit, I cant remember any mention of Sitara or Sitar. The name, in my knowledge came from Persian. I searched the Sanskrit dictionaries, of which are many online, including the famous, and most popular one by V.S. Apte. You can see them at [1], [2] (downloadable dictionary - very useful), or the Online Apte Sanskrit Dictionary. None of these had any hits for Sitar. The sanskrit for Star of course is तारा (Taaraa) or नक्षत्र (Nakshatra). It is possible that Sitar or Sitara came from the Sanskrit root taaraa, but that shouldn't be a criteria for inclusion under Sanskrit.
If you ask me, I think the best way is to put the word source as Hindi and leave it at that. The link to Sanskrit is tenuous at best. T/@Sniperz11editssign 02:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

You are correct Sniperz11. Sanskrit for "star" is taaraa or nakshatra. Any reliable Sanskrit dictionary, such as Monier Williams or V.S. Apte, will confirm this. sitaaraa is a Hindi/Urdu borrowing from Persian. Sanskrit and Persian are related languages and so both taaraa and sitaaraa are from the same root, but the Persian sitaaraa is not derived from the Sanskrit taaraa. Chanakyathegreat mentioned "Babynames adoption" as a source, but that is not a reliable website to find the origin of a word. Foreverknowledge (talk) 06:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I looked for "sitara sanskrit", and found the babynames. But baby names are probably the last place to look for as reliable sources. A dictionary is infinitely more reliable. T/@Sniperz11editssign 06:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
But sometime ago I recall seeing Sitara meaning 'Pole Star' or 'Morning Star'. could the 'Si' mean 'Pole' or 'Morning' and the 'Taara' (as you said above) mean 'Star'? Sorry this is only my assumption as Hindi/Sanskrit/Urdu isn't my native language.  S3000  ☎ 08:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
No, the website where you saw that probably isn't reliable for finding the etymology and meaning of a word. sitaaraa means "star" just as taaraa does. It doesn't mean "morning star" or "pole star." McGregor's Oxford Hindi-English dictionary, Platts' Hindi-Urdu-English dictionary[3] and Shakespear's Hindustani-English dictionary[4] all give the origin of sitaaraa as Persian.Foreverknowledge (talk) 09:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Urdu/Hindi is Sanskrit. Some people has a belief that Urdu originated from Arabic which is not true. Urdu and Hindi originated from Sanskrit. In Urdu, Muslims in Pakistan are using the Persian script to hide their Hindu ancestry. There must not be any doubt about Sitara first being Sanskrit and then adopted by daughter languages like Hindi and Urdu.Chanakyathegreat 03:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It is said that in Indonesian Bahasa (Bhasha comes from Sanskrit language) language which has Sanskrit origin uses Sitara. So the origin of Sitara is clear.Chanakyathegreat 03:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Said where? And by whom? You well know that you have to have reliable sources on WP for such claims. Now please, stop reverting, and start providing verifiable sources. Once a consensus has been reached on a solution based on reliable sources, then we can add Sanskrit or Persian. Consider this your last warning from me: Revert again, and you will be reported for revert warning, and I'll let the admins decide what to do with you. - BillCJ (talk) 03:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Not even required. If it is used in Sanskrit which predates Hindi/urdu it can be concluded that it's a Sanskrit word. Chanakyathegreat 04:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was originally used by the Cherokee in 8000 BC, so that makes it a Cherokee word. - BillCJ (talk) 04:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Also note that the dictionary link provided is not a Sanskrit dictionary. It's a dictionary which says that the meaning of the word Sitara in Hindi/Parsi languages is Star. Not that the Origin is in these languages.Chanakyathegreat 04:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

However, the Sumerians and Egyptians both claime to have used the word in 9000 BC, and the Aztecs in 10,000 BC,a nd the Martians in 12,000 BC. - BillCJ (talk) 04:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You have one day before providing proof that the origin of the word Sitara is from Hindi/Urdu and not from Sanskrit. Also provide proof for it not being Sanskrit. Otherwise it will be reverted back to its original content. And stop being a vandal.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 04:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a Vandal - my ancestors were Celtic/Gallic. - BillCJ (talk) 05:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, what is wrong with following Sniperz1's advice, and just stating that it is a Hindi word (regardless of which language it came from originally), and giving the meaning? Most readers won't care whether or not it is from Sanskrit, Persian, or Apache - they just need to know it's meaning, not its etymology. If this were the Hindi wikipedia, you might have a point on giving it's origins, but here, it is really irrelevant. Oh, I would give you links to the policies on Reliable sources which state it's up to the contributor adding (or keeping) info to provide souces, but I've not seen any evidence that you bother to follow policy. - BillCJ (talk) 05:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Nevermind. I'm just p-ing in the wind if I expect to make difference here. - BillCJ (talk) 05:25, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Chanakya, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you... I've given u links to Sanskrit dictionaries, including the seminal one by Apte. None of them have mention of Sitara, or Sitar. On the other hand, you can check out Urdu dictionaries, which almost all have an entry under Sitara, as "Star". Unfortunately, there is no source for your information, nor any substantiation for your claims. This isn't the place to discuss where urdu came from... words like zulf, fikr, maaf, and other urdu words certainly have no Sanskrit roots, but thats not the point here.
Could you provide a link which shows that Sitar or Sitara is actually a Sanskrit word (and something apart from Babynames please). If your avowed position is that Sitara is a sanskrit word, fine, but please provide a reliable source that substantiates ur position. From what Sanskrit I know (and though its conversational, I can understand a fair bit), there is no word sitara, at least no word that means Star. The closest is Taaraa, but, as I pointed out above, we dont take that as proof that its sanskrit, and instead note the word with the closest etymology, which is the Urdu word Sitara.
My point is simple... is there a Sanskrit word "Sitara"? If so, what is its meaning? Is there a Hindi/Urdu word Sitara. If yes, what is the meaning. Thanks. Sniperz11C @ S 06:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think, as said by Chanakyathegreat, Urdu is Sanskrit in Persian text. To my knowledge, Urdu contains a lot of Arabic and Persian terms that isn't in Sanskrit (or Hindi). The language was used by the Mughals and was a blend of their native languages (Arabic, Persian) and the native languages of the land (Sanskrit/Hindi). Modern day Pakistan uses the language to potray their Islamic culture, as Arabic/Persian script marks a distinct identity for Islam. That aside and coming to the point, I too agree to just leave it as a Hindi term. Lets put an end to this.  S3000  ☎ 06:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Since the orgin of the word Sitara is in contention because the Sanskrit dictionary did not provide details for it except for Tara (Star). We can leave it as in Hindi. Regarding Urdu it derived from Hindustani which is derived from Sanskrit+Prakrit with many loaned Parsi, Arabic words.Chanakyathegreat (talk) 12:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Update needed[edit]

Summer 2010 has come and gone - did the aircraft enter service? How is the flight test program progressing if it didn't? - The Bushranger One ping only 19:08, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

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