Talk:Haitian Americans

Tariq! I chose yours to peer review. You added so much insightful, quality content to this. Great job!! user: quoncen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quoncen (talk • contribs) 21:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

thank you. Lefeverk (talk) 13:46, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

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Are most Haitian immigrants black?

I was reading the article of Reggie Fils-Aimé and it claims he is Haitian. Yet he has straight hair, fairly light light skin, and white features 75.6.142.248 (talk) 10:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, most of them are. As well as the country 95% black and 5% anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.234.52 (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Source for 2,023,000 Haitians in America

Look at the source [1] and go to "Haitian Population in the US" and it breaks down how many are American born, naturalized, and who are residents. This doesn't give an estimate on illegal though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.21.144 (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

There are only 530,897 legal Haitians in America deal with it. it seems you have some sort of agenda here but its not going to work. 2,023,000 is probably the Amount the US had to Deport.

You have to be in SERIOUS denial if you think there are only half a million Haitians in this country. There are no less than 500,000 Haitians in South Florida alone. 2,023,000 is from like 2004, with our high birth rates and levels of immigration, the number is probably closer to 3,000,000 now. Worry about your Hispanic people (lol, probably a dominican) because you obviously dont know sh*t about Haitians from MIA to NYC to Boston to California. We can leave those census numbers up even though we know how many times a year they have to revise them, but once you go outside and see the real world, you'd know those census numbers are BS. SEASON OF THE ZOES. HAITIAN4LIFE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.177.136.7 (talk) 05:23, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Definition

Perhaps a compromise is in order. How about "Haitian Americans are Americans of Haitian heritage or Haitian-born people who have become naturalized citizens of the United States of America." Seems to me that that might work. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 22:22, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Or, looking at Jamaican American: Haitian Americans are Americans of Haitian heritage or Haitian-born people who are naturalized citizens or permanent residents of the United States of America." --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 22:23, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Are there WP:Reliable sources for this? The original way I stumbled on this is that anonymous IP going around violating WP:BLP by tagging people "Haitian American" each without any citation of the subject, or anyone with authority, labeling the person that way; in most cases, the person was a natural born citizen of the United States who had never lived in Haiti, and in some cases there was not even a mention of Haitian ancestry. If the definition is not set down reliably, then someone might come along and do the same thing again next time. The whole hyphenated-American thing seems to me like some kind of identity politics in which some people attempt to create a form a difficult-to-dispute shared identity with other people without their consent. When a label is open to different definitions, and there is not a clear source that an individual has given himself/herself that label, there ought to be overwhelming evidence from very reliable sources that the label is unambiguously correct before it is applied without the individual's consent. --Closeapple (talk) 14:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That is an excellent question. In general, are there reliably sourced definitions for this sort of thing? I seriously doubt that. Either way, whether or not a precise and acceptable definition exists, for tagging people as Haitian-American (or anything-else-American) we should not be looking at the precision of wikipedia's definition, but rather whether reliable sources identify the person as being Haitian-American. It is much easier, I think, to do that, than it is to find a reliably sourced definition of the concept. Or, to give an extreme example, if The New York Times decides that Nancy Pelosi is Haitian-American, then wikipedia will say so as well :). --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 15:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Haitians are Latinos

Yes, Haitians are Latinos/Latinas. Haiti is the first independent Latin American country. Haitians speak a French dialect. French is a Latin-based language just as Spanish; Portuguese, Italian, and Romanian are. Spanish speaking Latinos are no more Latino than Latin Americans that speak French or Portuguese! Latino is a word that is greatly misused and misunderstood. People think Latino is equal to short, dark, and brown, in other words, neither Black nor White! However, the Ancient Latins were definitely a White people who were neither short, nor dark, nor brown!

Modern day Latinos define a wide group of varying peoples that speak Latin based languages. Millions of Latinos are White, millions of Latinos are Black, and millions of Latinos are Brown (i.e. Mulatto or Mixed), or of indigenous origin that were conquered and/or colonized. In all honesty, if Latin or Latino was used in its most truthful manner, it would refer to Whites only, since the Ancient Latins were a White tribe, and since 99.99 percent of Spaniards, Portuguese, French, Italians, and Romanians are also indeed White! Furthermore, it would only be a term to use for those people today who are predominantly or 100 percent Latin blood in origin, but I seriously doubt any exists today, even in Italy, where they came to power! All other Latinos are merely Latinized peoples thus, not true Latinos! But, for simplicity's sake, I'll use Latino in its loose sense.

Another point that needs to be established is that Hispanic is not synonymous with Latino. Hispanics refer to only Spanish speaking Latinos. This brings me to another point. Spanish speaking Latinos are the only group of Latinos that are giving official status as a group, Hispanic! Those that speak Portuguese aren't giving their own distinct label, nor are those that speak French! Seems a bit discriminatory doesn't it! Even Hispanic is a vastly misused and misunderstood term. Hispanic technically means Spanish and the vast majority of Spaniards, some 99.99 percent are White! Hispanic derives from Hispania, the Roman name for Spain. As the Spanish dialects diverged, it soon became Espana.

Another point of importance is that the term Latin America was coined by the French in reference to their own colonies in the Americas! Thus, French/Spanish speaking Cajuns and French speaking Canadians can rightfully be called Latinos! --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 04:07, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Just because the etymological origins of the word "Latino" come from the word Latin, it does not necessarily follow that this word refers to all persons who speak a Latin-based language. "Latino" derives from the Spanish and Portuguese words "latinoamericano" and refers to persons from the Spanish and Portuguese countries of Central and South America and the Caribbean. The meaning of the English-language word "Latino" is not commonly understood to include French speakers and it is not commonly understood to include Haitians, and most sources that define the word define it to include only Spanish and Portuguese speakers from the Americas. Please read this Wikipedia article for further sources and information: Hispanic and Latino Americans.Goodsdrew (talk) 14:52, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Latino = Latin American! It's just a shorter term and quicker to say in speaking. Latino and Latin American both hearken back to Latin. The Latins were a people (White people incidentally) that spoke the Latin language. Today's Latino (Latin American) probably has only a smidgin of Latin blood in his veins. However, the language is more precise. Latinos (Latin Americans) speak not only Spanish, but also French and Portuguese! YES! FRENCH AND PORTUGUESE! Today's Latino (Latin American) to employ the term at it's loosest meaning, is not exclusive to Whites from Latin America, but also Blacks, and Mulattos (i.e. Browns)- basically anybody that speaks a Latin-based language! Hispanic refers to only Spanish-speaking Latinos. Why they have their own special category is way beyond me. Kind of haughty and high minded I think! --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 03:10, 09 May 2013 (UTC)

Like I said before, just because the phrase has the word "Latin" in it does not mean that it HAS to include all latin-derived languages. Meanings of words change in different contexts. You have provided no source to justify your reasoning. Please read what I wrote above and then read Hispanic and Latino Americans and read the cited sources, then we can talk. The vast majority of sources and dictionaries define Latin American in terms of the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries of the Americas.Goodsdrew (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Haiti was the First country in Latin America- but yet you say they aren't Latin? If you're Haitian you're either Afro-Latin/Mixed Latin/etc. People don't understand what Latin is!!! Latinos are people that are of Latin American culture, born in a Latin-American country, and speak a latin- based Language like French,Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc . Haiti was the very first in Latin- America , which is the reason why Haitians are proud to be Haitian! I don't think you know anything about the history of Haiti- which is probably why you don't want to EXCEPT the Facts! Look at Brazil, do they speak Spanish? NO! However they are Latin just like Haitians are! Even the Haitian ""GOVERNMENT" " decided to allow Haiti to be apart of the Latin-American society- because it was the First Latin- country!!!!! But I can see I might not get any where with you because you are in "" DENIAL "" OF TRUE HAITIAN HISTORY! --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 09:04, 09 May 2013 (UTC)

Citation? I've given you places to look that clearly explain what the English language term "Latin America" means. It doesn't include Haiti. The vast majority of academic sources don't include Haiti. U.S. Government definitions do not include Haiti. Until you can point to something that indicate the majority of sources agree with your position, every source in this discussion that has been cited (such as the sources at Hispanic and Latino Americans) contradicts your argument. Your argument carries no weight without citation to authority that shows your view is the majority view.Goodsdrew (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Please take the time to follow your own advice and read a book on the topic like ...

• Leslie Bethell (June 29, 1990). The Cambridge History of Latin America. Cambridge University Press. pp. 545–. ISBN 978-0-521-24518-0. Retrieved May 10, 2013.
• Benjamin Keen; Keith A. Haynes (July 28, 2008). A History of Latin America: Independence to the Present. Cengage Learning. pp. 582–. ISBN 978-0-618-78321-2. Retrieved May 10, 2013.
• Peadar Kirby (April 24, 2003). Introduction to Latin America: Twenty-First Century Challenges. SAGE Publications. pp. 165–. ISBN 978-1-4129-3263-9. Retrieved May 10, 2013.

Even the article your pointing to (Hispanic and Latino Americans) says "and even Haiti are thus all 'latinoamericanos.' No guessing guys.! Moxy (talk) 15:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I am quite familiar with the literature on Latina America, having a degree in Latin American studies. You pointed to one source that was cited at Hispanic and Latino Americans that refers to Haiti, but every other cited definition in that article excludes it. Including Haiti within the definition of Latin America is a distinctly minority position among scholars, academics, and even dictionaries. Here are a few sources:

"Latin America". The New Oxford Dictionary of English. Pearsall, J., ed. 2001. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press; p. 1040: "The parts of the American continent where Spanish or Portuguese is the main national language (i.e. Mexico and, in effect, the whole of Central and South America including many of the Caribbean islands)."

[1]: "Haiti is an anomalous country. Geographically, it is in the Caribbean, and by extension, the Western Hemisphere. But it is not part of Latin America, much less Anglo-Saxon America."

[2] "Haitians, who are identified as black Caribbean immigrants and not Latinos . . ."

Humes, Karen R.; Jones, Nicholas A.; Ramirez, Roberto R. "Overview of Race and Hispanic Origin: 2010" (PDF). U.S. Census Bureau. Retrieved 2011-03-28. "Hispanic or Latino" refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish or Portuguese culture or origin regardless of race.

"American FactFinder Help: Hispanic or Latino origin". United States Census Bureau. Retrieved 2008-10-05. For Census 2000, American Community Survey: People who identify with the terms "Hispanic" or "Latino" are those who classify themselves in one of the specific Hispanic or Latino categories listed on the Census 2000 or ACS questionnaire - "Mexican," "Puerto Rican," or "Cuban" - as well as those who indicate that they are "other Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino." Origin can be viewed as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person's parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States. People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any "race".
1990 Census of Population and Housing: A self-designated classification for people whose origins are from Spain, the Spanish-speaking countries of Central or South America, the Caribbean, or those identifying themselves generally as Spanish, Spanish-American, etc. Origin can be viewed as ancestry, nationality, or country of birth of the person or person's parents or ancestors prior to their arrival in the United States.

"Latino: People with roots in the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking Americas. This broader term, mostly used in the United States, is sometimes used as a replacement for Hispanic. [3]

[4] (Defining "Hispanic" as meaning those with Spanish-speaking roots in the Americas and "Latino" as meaning those with both Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking roots in Latin America.)Goodsdrew (talk) 15:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Haiti is listed in these pages: Latin Americans, Afro-Latin American, White Latin Americans, Latin American. Websites: Introduction to Latin America: Twenty-First Century Challenges Hugo Chavez' legacy in Haiti and Latin America --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 01:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I personally don't care - and agree there are many arguments for your point as see at. Samuel P. Huntington (31 May 2007). The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World O. Simon & Schuster. p. 136. ISBN 978-1-4165-6124-8. but to the world as a whole - as in with research and statistics it is part of that world.. and has been for a long time. Got to look at what data is out there over time ...not about racial or language views. William O'Leary; Eugene Vandrovec; Gary Lewis (1975). Family Planning Statistics, 1965 to 1973: Africa, Asia, Latin America. U.S. Department of Commerce, Social and Economic Statistics Administration, Bureau of the Census, International Statistical Programs Center. p. 47. Retrieved 10 May 2013. Other Latin American countries known to have programs but for which no data are available are Bolivia and Haiti. Moxy (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

So far, the vast weight of sources that have been cited in this discussion say that Haitians are not Latino / Latin American. CoCoLumps is the only person in this thread arguing that Haitians should be identified as being Latino / Latin American. Let's try to reach consensus here. CoCoLumps--do you have any sources that support your views? Otherwise, the vast weight of the evidence points to reverting back to list Haitians as not being Latin American. If no sources are forthcoming, and if no one else chimes in to support the idea that Haitians are Latino, then I think we need to follow the sources and remove the references to Latino / Latin America. Let's give it 5-7 days and see where things stand. Anyone opposed? Goodsdrew (talk) 14:25, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The sources that you have cited in this discussion are U.S. base and their definitions about Latin America are a bit incorrect. I'm fully aware the term Latin America does not always include Haiti however that doesn't mean their not part of Latin America. I already cited more than one source that indicates Haitians are in fact Latino and Latin American, I don't mind providing more source.

"Hispanic: anyone from a country that speaks Spanish. (DOES not include Brazil) Hispanic: is NOT a racial category but denotes ETHNIC heritage. Hispanic is the term used by the US government.

Latino: Anyone from a country whose language is a romance language. It includes Haitians, Brazilians, etc. Latino is used for more informal communication. Latino is more a term adopted by the Latin population itself.

However, most Latino people prefer to be called by their country of origin and nothing else: Cuban, Ecuadorian, Colombian, Puerto Rican, etc.

Latino is preferred because:

- It relates directly to the experience of Latin-American people living in the USA. Therefore it defines a process of hybridization, combination and selection of cultural values. A transcultural term. It is not Latin-American nor American, it is both and a new thing at the same time. Therefore, it expresses paradox, complexity and defiance.

- It denotes people who are the product of Latin-Indian and/or Latin-Black mestizaje and it is generally used by working class people. It affirms the cultures and people dominated by Mediterranean civilization in its career throughout the New World.

- It suggests ethnic pride and cultural affirmation and solidarity among all Latino people fighting against racism, sexism and classism." [5]

Latin America, noun, the part of the American continents south of the United States in which Spanish, Portuguese, or French is officially spoken. [6]

"Haiti was the first independent nation of Latin America and the Caribbean, the black-led republic in the world, and the second republic in the Americas when it gained independence in 1804; as part of a successful slave revolution lasting nearly a decade (1791-1804)." History and Culture of Haiti --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 08:35, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Your first source is just someone's personal website and is not a reliable source under Wikipedia guidelines. Your other two sources are contradicted by the seven sources I've provided. With the weight of sources in this discussion indicating that Haitians do not qualify and without anyone else objecting to removing references to Haiti, it is clear that Haitians should not be listed in this article and I am removing the reference.Goodsdrew (talk) 21:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree - sources exclude Haiti from Latin America.Parkwells (talk) 17:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, false Parkwells. You are correct in that reliable sources do leave out Haiti at times when discussing Latin America and its parameters. However, you have to wonder what is their rationale for what is considered, and why a French-speaking country should warrant exclusion (is there any biases?). We all know that even reliable sources can be dead wrong at times and in this case I can muster up plenty of reliable sources JSTOR etc. that would say they are wrong (not including the overwhelling ones above, and sourced sections in Latin America). To elaborate further, are Haitians "Latino"? Whatever the hell that means as a census option, under our current definition, no. Are Haitians Latin Americans, being situated in Latin America? Yes. Is Quebec part of Latin America (just for the sake of going a bit further), no. If they were independent from Anglo Canada, then possibly (but then there would be a historical factor involved, but definitions could eventually broaden). Latin America was first referred by Napoleon to seperate Latin derived conquerings from Anglo (or germanic) en route to Frenchifying the world. Unfortunately, the Haitian Revolution was in their way. I don't understand why there is so many people who are doubtful on this topic. Latin Europe includes any country that speaks a Latin language in Europe; Latin Africa and the Americas the same. Why Canada isn't, I believe is purely from a political standpoint and thus both unorthodox and illogical being that French is a co-official language. Has nothing to do with race either. Even "Latino" does not factor race. It's expicitly for those who speak Spanish or Portuguese. David Ortiz for example, would be a "black" (race), Latino (Spanish-speaking), whereas Pitbull (rapper), would be a "white" (again on race on census forms), Latino (Spanish-speaking). Not hard. Canada is more confusing. Personally, I do not care too much about it and think its stupid. There are 300+ cultures and all 300+ could have its own label (like their "nationalities" for starters?). Race is what cannot be acquired. An Asian person cannot be considered a black person (unless mixed but for simplicity purposes...), but a Chinese person born in Brazil could thus be Latin American; a speaker of Portuguese. Cheers. Savvyjack23 (talk)

Too hasty - I meant that Haitians were not Latinos, understanding that classification being reserved for Spanish and Portuguese speakers. I understand that it has nothing to do with race. Thanks for your comments - Parkwells (talk) 00:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification Parkwells. Savvyjack23 (talk) 03:39, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Delete 100 communities

Deleted the top 100 communities for Haitian population; this seems excessive and out of balance in relation to their population in the US. People could make a separate list page if they really want this information but it seems like TMI, to what end? Parkwells (talk) 17:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with this change. Maybe even 25 may be suffice. Haven't done enough comparing myself but looked at a few articles and it seeks consistent. Savvyjack23 (talk) 20:19, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

The article already has the top 10 cities and the top 36 communities for people of Haitian descent. That should be enough. Parkwells (talk) 00:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Additions to Article

I am interested in possibly adding more information to this article using scholarly sources to bulk up each section. Any advice on where to look for more information is welcomed. I have already listed some possible references on my User page. Ijwilliams (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Outdated information

I'm not looking to personally get involved in a project to change statistics or do any research at this time, but a lot of the statistics in this article are way out of date, and are sourced using archive links that are not online anymore, with some of them going back to 2004, without mentioning this in the article. These statistics are super inaccurate as of 2023. I would like to raise the alarm on this in case someone reads this and is inclined to research and fix this data. Thank you in advance! Sauteedredonions (talk) 21:18, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Race, Law, and Politics

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ciaranhall, Lefeverk (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Keegan M. Conway Kconway032313 17:30, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Some gibberish in this article?

The sentence using footnote 11 seems to not be from the source, and the sentence in question seems to have a nonsensical "number" in it. " In Elmont, New York, there are 4,902,13.0% Black Haitians as well as their ancestors of Haitian American families that have immigrated from Haiti to the U.S." I'm not usually a Wiki editor or contributor, so I'll leave that to others to figure out what needs fixing. 2601:447:CA83:D9F0:F1B9:C1C2:688F:24B4 (talk) 17:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)