Talk:History of fantasy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Novels (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the general Project discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Literature (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Literature, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Literature on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Comment[edit]

We might also want to make some attempt to expand beyond Eurasian culture as a whole, though I'm not sure how significant the contributions of other cultures have really been (so far). After all, we don't want to include things that aren't very significant just for multiculturalism's sake, but it's something I think we should really look into, no matter what we end up deciding. --Corvun 23:26, August 14, 2005 (UTC)


The chapter on Modern fantasy has been bugged, most of it is missing.

- - Prof. Dr. Aleksandar B. Nedelkovic, Beograd, Serbia

The manga etc is much too modern to have any influence on the formation of the fantasy genre, and this is the topic of the article in question. The fantasy, in the sense of supernatural happening which were not explicitly believed, is evident in all literary traditions. The fantasy genre as such, on the other hand, is a modern creation of Western civilisation, and any history of modern fantasy genre must necessarily concentrate on those literary traditions which influenced it.

Eg influence of the Arabian Night Tales on western fantasy is undoubtable. Such authors as Dunsany are unimaginable without them.

Baduin 16:14, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

No, this article is not about the "formation of the fantasy genre" -- it's about the history of fantasy. Goldfritha 00:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Do people have some problems with chronology? Gothic novel (XVIII century) is always pushed after Morris (end of XIX century) Baduin 17:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


I broke off the "differences" section because it was not suitable for the lede -- the article being about the history and not the differences. Goldfritha 15:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

order[edit]

The order of this article is not very useful. The Arabic section is talking about the decline of romances before the section that tells what they are. The Western section deals with the matter chronologically, but the added sections go after it regionally. It does not seem appropriate for an article on history. Goldfritha 00:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

While we're at it, does the "east/west" split add anything? Goldfritha 17:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Out it goes, then. I am reordering chronologically, according to the first works cited in each section. (And, of course, changing the title "Primordial fantasy") Goldfritha 22:36, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite[edit]

This page does not discuss the history of fantasy. At best, it discusses what The Encyclopedia of Fantasy terms "taproot texts", sources for the genre, but it does so with no eye to the actual degree of influence that the works have had. Goldfritha 01:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the fantasy article contains nearly as much, if not more, than this one about the actual history of fantasy. The actual history is being swamped by an endless list of every mythology that's been written down. I may split off to an article about taproot texts. Goldfritha 00:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Splitting. Goldfritha 17:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Splitted. We may discuss the details as necessary. Some of the sections may have elements that are more suitable for the other article, but I made the first pass based on the descriptions themselves. Goldfritha 18:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


I suggest reading works in question before making any changes. "True History" is pure fantasy, with slight elements of SF - as anyone who reads it would know. Golden Ass of Apuleius is fantasy also. It does have elements of horror. This, however, happens so often, that if elements of horror were to disqualify books from being fantasy there would remain a short list indeed. Baduin 22:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest not advocating violations of WP:OR.
Got a reference for your claims?
Furthermore, got a reference for their being a noteworthy part of the history of the fantasy genre? There is too much that was integral to the genre to include isolated flukes in this article. Goldfritha 23:29, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
References to science fiction should be relocated to the science fiction article or deleted altogether. This is the fantasy article. Goldfritha 02:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Out it goes, then. Goldfritha 03:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
By original research you mean reading the book in question? It would do you no harm. Even a passing knowledge of either the history of fantasy and SF, or of the books, would allow you to avoid such rudimentary mistakes. And if you consider "dog-faced men fighting on winged acorns" and "Salad-wings... also enormous birds, fledged with various herbs, and with quill-feathers resembling lettuce leaves." to be SF, I can only say - more power to you!
89.79.39.26 17:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone didn't read "Gargantua and Pantagruel" as well? I am sorry to have to inform all interested that memorizing "Sword of Shannara" is not proper qualification for editing even a sub-scholarly work.
89.79.39.26 18:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, yes. Reading a work and declaring that is fantasy definitely violates WP:OR. And as for SF -- the person inserting references that describe it as SF is not in a strong position to criticize someone else -- who removed such references -- as considering it SF.
The only proper qualification for editing this article is being able to provide references and discuss the development of the genre -- not insert a laundry list of random works that might be considered fantasy by some definitions. Goldfritha 00:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a more detailed reference to L. Frank Baum's Oz series? After all, it is basically a modern fantasy series of traveller's tales which could possibly be considered epic (consists of 14 original novels) in nature, pre-dates Tolkien by about 30-35 years, and re-introduces the concepts of elves, giants, dwarves, and gnomes, before Tolkien. Shadowhawk4735 (talk) 17:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Romances[edit]

Is there any point to the current splitting up of romances into the medieval and the Renaissance? The development was continuous. Goldfritha 03:38, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

General opinion about article[edit]

I must say this article begins at last look like an encyclopedia article. And it has clear focus - modern fantasy genre and its development and history - as opposed to the laundry list of the fantastic literature throughout the ages.

I must say the old article was fun, but it belonged to quite a different topic.

Assuming this I would consider removing romances, fairy tales and gothic novels to the Sources of fantasy article. Those works may be near fantasy, but they belong to their own genres. If the ancient novel and utopias were removed, other genres should also go.

Baduin 13:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Since there seems to be a need to call the fantasy genre, "Modern Fantasy", doesn't that inherently imply that the fantasy genre as a whole, encompasses much more? Thus, the fantasy genre should include all works of fantasy, not just be defined by the last two hundred years of literary history. Shadowhawk4735 (talk) 17:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Eastern fantasy[edit]

I think we've done a pretty good job so far of including "Eastern" fantasy fiction, particularly on the subgenre page, but this history page seems to be overwhelmingly Western. The influence of Eastern fairytales and fables on the fantasy genre has been immense, not only through the avenues of Japanese monster-movies, anime, manga, and videogame RPGs, but also through pen & paper RPGs, a general Western awareness of Eastern culture in the past few decades, and most importantly, the impact that Eastern fairytales, fables, and culture has had on contemporary fantasy fiction in the East.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sadads (talkcontribs)