Talk:Hong Taiji

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On the name Abahai[edit]

The same old question. Was Hong Taiji's personal name really Abahai? Nanshu 22:57, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

As suggested by Mgmei, I read "The emperor 'Abahai': Analysis of a Historical Mistake," by Giovanni Stary (Central Asiatic Journal, 28, Nos. 3-4 (1984), pp. 296-9). Neither Manchu, Chinese nor Korean sources refer him as Abahai. So Giovanni Stary investigated when and why the Western mistake had happened. He found Russian documents call him Abachaj in the middle 19th century. He supposed that Abahai was the misinterpretation of "abkai sure," the first era name of Hong Taiji. He guessed that Abahai came from the Chinese syllabic pronunciation of abkai (abka "sky" + GEN.) but I think it's likely that they misread abkai in Manchu (as I often did). --Nanshu 01:40, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Wonderful. You're discrediting a learned source with your own hunch????


romanisation[edit]

What is the Manchu romanisation of Hong Taiji (like Nurhaci)? — Instantnood 01:49, Jan 31 2005 (UTC)

i've never heard of him referred to as hong taiji before reading this article. i'd always thought he was huang taiji. is hong taiji the manchu pronunciation? if so is there a source for this opinion?--Sumple 04:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Sumple, you are right. Hong Taiji in Manchu, or Хунтайж in Mongolian is a title amongst the Sino-Manchu-Mongol aristocracy. It is a corruption of the chinese title Huangtaiji. 简明满汉词典 has a long list of emperors' titles at the end of the book. Funny enough, the Mongols refer Prince Harry as Британийн хунтайж Гарри, Hong Taiji Harry of Britain. The title can be translated into Englsih as "Crown Prince". --GoogleMonkey 20:12, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

so it is "Hong Taiji"? well all we need now is sb to (or to tell me how to) redirect Huang Taiji and Huangtaiji here. --1698 08:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it "Hong Taiji" or "Hung Taiji" in Manchu romanisation? I have found the latter form in Volume 9 of the Cambridge History of China and also in this web page with a course curriculum from the University of Berkeley, and in this review of a book on the Manchus. Unless somebody can point more authoritative references that use "Hong Taiji" (or explain the Manchu system of romanisation being used and the rationale for that), I would suggest moving the article to "Hung Taiji", and use that form of the name consistently throughout the text. By the way, the Cambridge History of China book also cites Giovanni Stary's article and accepts his research, lending even more credibility to the idea that Abahai is, indeed, a wrong name. --AngelRiesgo 11:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I have decided to be bold, and have moved the title to "Hung Taiji", since this seems to be the usual Manchu romanisation in the specialised literature of recent years. I have also modified the text of the article to be consistent so that only the "Hung" form is used. Besides the sources I cited above, I have also checked book The Manchus by Pamela Crossley. In the glossary at the end of the book, both "Hong Taiji" and "Huang Taiji" are regarded as pinyin renderings of the various Chinese names, whereas "Hung Taiji" is consistently used as the Manchu name. --AngelRiesgo 09:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
He's best known as emperor of China (not as emperor of the Manchu) (granted, at the same time, Chongzhen also claimed to be emperor), and by his Chinese name, Huang Taiji, and hence the article name should be "Huang Taiji". Far more has been written about him in the Chinese language than in the Manchu language. I've clarified the intro to note that "Hong Taiji" and "Hung Taiji" are Manchu-based transliterations. —Lowellian (reply) 03:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
His son was the 1st Qing Emperor of China as the Shunzhi Emperor. ""In the midst of much upheaval, the Manchus seized control of Beijing in June 1644, and in October of the same year the Shunzhi emperor's uncle, the chief regent Prince, proclaimed the Qing dynasty to be the legitimate successor to the Ming Dynasty. Therefore, although the Shunzhi emperor was not the founder of the Qing dynasty, he was the first Qing emperor of China."" Hung Taiji died in 1643 prior to the fall of the Ming Dynasty's control of Beijing. He was the Emperor of the Qing Dynasty and Great Khan of the Mongols but he was not the Emperor of China at the time.Abstrakt —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 01:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

+++++++++++++++++++++++ because the chinese have their unique language and their letters must have such a transition of hung to huang maybe. Today too they do it still. they would notice all the foreign names weird. But Hung taiji is prince. mongolian title for kingskids. In old mongolian script are U and O with same letter described. The manju script is a copy of mongolscript. That's the reason ,why are there Hong taiji or Hung taiji. so in manju script here in wiki in manju says too Hung Taiji. that must be the origin. not Huang taiji. Huang is chinese transition. Prince Harry is Hung taiji too. Because he is hung taiji. he comes from kingsfamily and he can be King in the Future. That's what hung taji these words say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.120.91 (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

wife[edit]

its weird theres just on wife at the bottom of the whole article. maybe, a list of consorts somewhere above the succession box? --1698 07:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Difficulty[edit]

These Chinese articles are almost uniformly unreadable. There are no sections. There is no introduction. There are many different names in different scripts, stated right at the start of the article that buries the reader under a load of minutae. This makes it completely inaccessible to almost 99% of the readers. I will make a few changes.--Filll 18:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Please check[edit]

I have tried to make this a bit clearer and reorganize it. I hope I did not introduce any errors. Please check my edits.--Filll 18:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

expansion[edit]

If anyone can make sense of this information about Hung Taiji's marriages and children, all the names are in Wades-Giles, or at least a form of it =( feel free and give a shot. Abstrakt 03:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/China/manchu4.htm

Manchu Name[edit]

There seems to be two different versions of Hong Taiji's Manchurian name:

Hong Taiji name.png and Hung Taiji name.png

The second words for both these files (which both appear on the page) seem to match, but there is a definite difference with the first.

Does anyone know which one (if either) is correct?

Mjb1981 (talk) 20:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The only internet source I can find is this Chinese article which seems to agree with the Hong version rather than the Hung version (the file names of the two images). But I know neither Manchurian nor Mongolian so I'm not 100% confident...
The website is talking about Hong Taiji and the script on the picture does seem to correspond with Hong.
Mjb1981 (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

the first one is Hung taiji for mgl-ian , the second can be only by manchu people interpreted. as a mgl i cant say it's hung or hong, because it'll be grammatically not right. For me it'll be Gung like Duke in english, something isn't right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.171.120.91 (talk) 23:52, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Empress Xiaolie[edit]

Why does Empress Xiaolie and Empress Xiao-Lie redirect here none of his wives bear that name? I am going to redirect the links to the Ming Empress of that name.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 00:19, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Oh. It is Lady Abahai. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 00:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Opinion of Lamaism (Tibetan Buddhism)[edit]

Hong Taiji had a very negative personal opinion of Tibetan buddhism and its lamas, although he used them for political purposes. The manchus also did not convert to Buddhism.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hi2THl2FUZ4C&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hong Taiji and the ethnogenesis of the Manchu[edit]

Hong Taiji dissasociated the Manchu from the Jurchen identity.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WChrSv86uIsC&pg=PA187#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=WChrSv86uIsC&pg=PA190#v=onepage&q&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 04:10, 25 February 2013 (UTC)