Talk:Igor Shafarevich

Other

I think it would be appropriate and much appreciated if somebody uploaded a pronunciation of Shafarevich's name.

Mathematics

The article's quality would be greatly enhanced with a picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.186.24.116 (talk) 17:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC) Clearly, the discussion of math contributions of Shafarevich is completely inadequate. Please whoever is an expert add more material!

Anti-Semitism

I've been working on cleaning up Category:Anti-Semitic people. This article is really vague to someone unfamiliar with this person as to what anti-Semitic activities he has been involved with. Some clearer facts would be appreciated. -- Kendrick7^talk 02:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The sort of thing that is said:

The most prominent, and probably the most interesting intellectually is that of “Russophobia,” the expression of antisemitism as a result of the Russians' loss of cultural identity. The basic outlook of the persons in this group, exemplified by Shafarevich, is a belief in an immanent national character. Russians are believed to be open, accepting, and hospitable. They are deemed to have a unique cultural mission in the world, expressed through their Eastern Orthodox religion, the traditional village community, and Russia's position in the world as the northern Eurasian land mass. Essentially, this view derives from the Slavophilic philosophies of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in their struggle against the introduction of the industrial and democratic values of Western Europe and America into Eastern Europe. These philosophies regard Jews as non-assimilating, exclusionary, manipulative, and power-seeking. Even more important, Jews are seen as a foreign implant into Russia, and with their estrangement from village collectivism and their imputed propensity for individual activity and individual profit, they become the embodiment of those values rejected by the Slavophiles. This group of antisemites also demonstrates a consistent propensity to judge people as collectives rather than individuals. They are firm believers in national character as a dominant and unchanging force.

This is from [1]. It amounts to saying that slavophiles (of the kind Shafarevich undoubtedly is) have an ideological commitment. I know nothing at all about personal matters, other than to Shafarevich's credit. Charles Matthews 23:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is unbalanced. Igor Shafarevich is famous for his mathematical work. His historical/sociological/political/anthropological positions is AFAIK low encyclopedic important; but one of his laical humanities view (scoring Jews activity) has now two time more space in the article then his mathematical work.--88.83.178.105 (talk) 12:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

What the person is "famous for" is subjective and irrelevant. Just because Mel Gibson is clearly most famous for his movies doesn't prevent the WP article from covering minor events in his life such as the famous DUI incident. What's relevant is what reliable sources say, and if they say Shafarevich's alleged anti-semitism is important, so be it. WP:UNDUE does a good job covering the issue. Please read and argue the points. If you think this section is too long, the standard solution would be to split the article into two and have only one paragraph on this left, with a link to a longer article. Is this what you propose? Mhym (talk) 23:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The article appears, in part, to present someone's personal research and conclusions rather than straightforward facts regarding whether Shaferevich is or is not anti-Semitic. I urge the use of a NPOV caveat in the article until the issue can be better resolved. 24.214.238.86 (talk) 16:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I will add an OR caveat. 24.214.238.86 (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Sources

I was trying to track down published sources for Miles Reid's observations. This has led me to Krista Berglund in Finland, who is finishing a dissertation on Shafarevich, which includes much material supplied by Reid. So sources will be there, in time.

She also feels, not surprisingly, that the page is simplistic.

Charles Matthews 14:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Press clippings

• • A leading figure in the Russian nationalist, anti-Jewish movement is Igor Shafarevich, a close friend of Alexander Solzhenitsyn and a corresponding member of the Soviet Academy of Sciences. Shafarevich, following Solzhenitsyn's example, has popularized the term Russophobe as a codeword for Jew.
    • Singned, JOHN GARRARD & CAROL E. GARRARD, Tucson, Ariz., May 12, 1990 The writers are, respectively, professor of Russian literature at the University of Arizona and adjunct professor at the University of Phoenix. Glasnost Byproduct: Virulent Anti-Semitism; [Letter] New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: May 27, 1990. pg. A.12
  • Cambridge University has withdrawn a proposal to confer an honorary degree on a leading Soviet mathematician this summer, because of his reported anti-Semitism. [..] Last year, Shafarevich wrote an article, "Russophobia," about Westerners who hate Russia, and about the "little people" of intellectuals in Russia who agree with them, and who believe that emigration is the most important of all human rights. According to Shafarevich, the tone of the "little people" was set by Jews, who also influence gentiles within this group.
    • CAMBRIDGE CANCELS HONORARY DEGREE INVITATION TO RUSSIAN ANTI-SEMITE By DOUGLAS DAVIS, Jerusalem Post Correspondent. Jerusalem Post. Jerusalem: Apr 23, 1990. pg. 08
  • Efforts to reach Shafarevich were unsuccessful, but in previous interviews about his book he has denied any anti-Semitism.
    • MATHEMATICIAN ASKED TO QUIT SCIENCE GROUP SAYS WRITINGS ANTI-SEMITIC; [FINAL Edition], The New York Times. Seattle Post - Intelligencer. Seattle, Wash.: Jul 29, 1992. pg. a.9
  • In an essay published in 1982, he argued that Jews were responsible for the Bolshevik Revolution and that Jewish intellectuals were intent on destroying Russian culture. An article in the Jerusalem Post in 1990 quoted Shafarevich as explaining, "I was not talking only about the Jews, nor was I talking about all the Jews."
    • Science group asks Russian to resign over anti-Semitism; [2 STAR Edition] WARREN E. LEARY. Houston Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). Houston, Tex.: Jul 29, 1992. pg. 7
  • Shafarevich's critics say the scientist, 69, who in the 1970s was a noted dissident and human rights advocate, is associated with Pamyat, an extremist nationalistic movement in Russia that is known for anti-Semitic sentiments and for accusing Jews of helping to introduce communism into that country.
    • Russian Refuses To Resign From Science Panel / Mathematician accused of anti-Semitic writings; [THREE STAR Edition] San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext). San Francisco, Calif.: Aug 22, 1992. pg. A.5
  • The distinguished Russian mathematician Igor R. Shafarevich doesn't like Jews, and he won't let them work in his section of the Institute of Mathematics in Moscow. [..] In his essay titled "Russophobia," written in 1982 and first published in Germany in 1988, Shafarevich blames the Jews for practically everything that has gone wrong in world history, which in his religionist, antisocialist, Russian-nationalistic opinion is apparently a great deal. [..] If I had ever been considered for membership in the National Academy, I would have been appalled if the word "Jewish" had come up during the nomination deliberations. I am equally appalled that the word "antisemitic" is being used in deciding whether or not Shafarevich deserves to be honored as a preeminent mathematician.
    • Scientist and Antisemite; The National Academy of Sciences has no business policing its members' attitudes.; [FINAL Edition] Robert L. Wolke. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: Sep 1, 1992. pg. a.17 The writer is professor emeritus of chemistry at the University of Pittsburgh.
  • Mr. Shafarevich uses his credentials to lend respectability to a nascent fascist movement in the former Soviet Union. At a nationalist rally in Moscow in June, Mr. Shafarevich was among those who incited the audience with antisemitic and anti-democratic speeches. After the rally, some from the audience took a television station by force, carrying a placard that read, "Russian Television - With No Jews." Igor Shafarevich has a right to his beliefs. But it is the business of the academy to censure him when he acts on those beliefs to interfere with the rights of others.
    • LARRY SHEPP AT&T Bell Laboratories Murray Hill, N.J. EUGENE VEKLEROV Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory University of California Berkeley, Calif.
    • Scientist and Antisemite'; [FINAL Edition] [[Letters] The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: Sep 7, 1992. pg. a.26
  • In addition, Mr. [Walter] Laqueur tells us of the strange case of Igor Shafarevich, the distinguished mathematician and member of the prestigious Academy of Sciences. In the early 1970's, Mr. Shafarevich was associated with the Soviet human rights movement. Today, he is notorious for his anti-Semitism and his denunciations of any "small people" that would deny the "historical achievements" of Russia. This kind of chauvinist logic, Mr. Laqueur says, is widespread and carries some political weight within the country.
    • The Evil Empire, Continued; [Review] Rubenstein, , Joshua. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1993. pg. A.9
  • One of the most fascinating chapters in the book ["The Nazification of Russia"] is the story of Igor Shafarevich, a onetime child prodigy and outstanding mathematician. In the 1970s he wrote a book that was widely circulated in the West, criticizing socialist ideology. In 1982, this well-known anti-Communist dissident published a new book, "Russophobia," warning that democracy was a Jewish invention being inflicted on Russia, one that would lead to the enslavement of Russia by the West. Among the "Jews" who sought to impose a new serfdom on the Russian people he listed Pablo Picasso and Gen. George Marshall. His book, ironically, was regarded as too hot to publish at the time in the Soviet Union, so it had to wait until Mikhail Gorbachev's glasnost policy permitted the book's dissemination.
    • A look at anti-Semitism in Russia; [2 Edition] Arnold Beichman. Washington Times. Washington, D.C.: Sep 18, 1996. pg. A.19
  • Another letter has been sent to the Russian Prosecutor-General's Office by a group of Russian citizens demanding that a number of Jewish organizations should be outlawed. The authors of the appeal are demanding that a case be launched to ban all religious and national associations based on the morality of the Judaic code of conduct. Among the signatories are [..] Academician Igor Shafarevich... The Jewish community views this letter as anti- Semitic.
    • Ekho Moskvy radio, Moscow, in Russian 1500 24 Mar 05/BBC Monitoring/(c) BBC
  • Amid this continuing destruction, the Russian patriots feel themselves misunderstood. Either the word Russian is used as shorthand for the entire polyglot citizenry of the Soviet Union, and thus for the acts of aggression committed under the banner of Communism or, when the word is used correctly to describe a distinct people, that people is often caricatured as bellicose, superstitious, servile, lazy and anti-Semitic. The most influential Russian manifesto of recent times is Igor Shafarevich's Russophobia, a bitterly defensive tract serialized in the monthly magazine of the Russian Writers' Union, Our Contemporary, a bible of the Russian patriots. Xerox copies have been distributed like scriptural tracts across Russia. With bitter eloquence, Shafarevich describes the Russian-hater's stereotype of the Russian: A slave psychology, the absence of a sense of personal dignity, intolerance toward the opinions of others, a groveling mixture of spite, envy and the worship of authority. Since olden days, the Russians have loved strong and cruel authority, and have loved its very cruelty, throughout history they tended to slavishly submit to force. Even now, authority and a 'nostalgia for a master' dominates in the psyche of the nation . . . but the Russians are incapable of understanding the cause of their misfortunes. Regarding everything foreign with suspicion and hostility, they tend to accuse anyone at all of their trouble: the Tatars, the Greeks, the Germans, the Jews . . . anyone but themselves. [..] Shafarevich, in his tract, blames Jews for promulgating the current wave of Russophobia.
    • YEARNING FOR AN IRON HAND, Bill Keller: Bill Keller is chief of the Moscow bureau of The Times. He won the 1989 Pulitzer Prize for foreign reporting. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Jan 28, 1990. pg. A.18
  • Igor Shafarevich, a world-renowned mathematician and respected dissident, is one prominent Soviet intellectual who has lent his authority to the nationalist cause. His provocative essay, serialized in the literary magazine Nash Sovremennik, begins with the unobjectionable premise that ethnic Russians are entitled to national pride just as any other ethnic group. He rejects as russophobic any attempts to explain Russian history in terms of servility, intolerance and a craving for strong authority, pointing out - correctly - that any such charge addressed to other groups would be judged racist. Inexplicably, however, Shafarevich refuses to follow his own advice and proceeds to blame Jews for the misfortunes that Russia has suffered in this century. His arguments are as old as they are spurious: The dominant role that Jews gained in revolutionary organizations at the turn of the century caused Russia to abandon its predestined historical path; after the revolution, Jews effectively controlled repressive institutions in the country; the horrors that Russian people suffered under the Marxist regime are due largely to vengeful sentiments imparted to Jews by the Talmud. "Either remain foreigners without political rights," counsels Shafarevich to the "non-indigenous" elements residing in Russia, "or accept Russian citizenship based on love of homeland." [..] One after another, speakers at the [Russian republic's Writers' Union]'s plenary meeting rose to condemn "cosmopolitan intellectuals" and swore to stamp out their pernicious influence. Some thanked Shafarevich for "the courageous stand" he took in the face of Jewish dominance. Anatoly Builov went further than anybody else in his avowed anti-Semitism: If life in the Soviet Union has been miserable for so many decades, he asked, wasn't it because so many Jews, some hiding under Russian identities, have occupied leading positions in the Soviet hierarchy?
    • Russians should defy bigots in their midst; [FINAL Edition] DMITRI SHALIN. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Feb 28, 1990. pg. B.3
  • No essay has drawn more attention among the Soviet intelligentsia this year than Igor Shafarevich's "Russophobia," which argues that "The Little People"-mainly Jewish writers and emigres-have ruined the self-respect of native Russians-"The Big People"-by describing them as a nation of slaves who worship power and intolerance. Such journals as Nash Sovremenik (Our Contemporary), Molodaya Gvardiya (Young Guard) and Literaturnaya Rossiya (Literary Russia) regularly run articles and letters that many Jews here say echo the resentful themes of "Russophobia." But Shafarevich, a mathematician and a prominent political dissident in the 1970s, denied in an interview that he is antisemitic, calling such accusations the result of Jewish "persecution mania." "There is only one nation about whose needs we hear about almost every day," Shafarevich wrote in Nash Sovremenik. "Jewish national emotions are the fever of the whole country and the whole world. They are a negative influence on disarmament, trade agreements and international relations of scientists. They provoke demonstrations and strikes and emerge in almost every conversation. "The Jewish issue has acquired an incomprehensible power over people's minds and has overshadowed the problems of Ukranians, Estonians and Crimean Tatars. And as for the Russian issue, that is evidently not to be acknowledged at all." Shafarevich says that certain Jewish authors and other members of "The Little People" hold inordinate power in Soviet society and head off all potential criticism through "the powerful Jewish lobby" and with hasty complaints of antisemitism. "The term antisemitism is like an atom bomb in our heads," he declared. Of reports and rumors of attacks on Jews, Shafarevich said: "Against the background {of anti-Armenian and anti-Russian violence} it is impossible to speak of antisemitism. I have't heard about a single quarrel or of people being beaten in the face because of antisemitism. It is absolutely incompatible with the real problems present now. I am just amazed to hear such things." [..] In the interview, Shafarevich did not defend such views, but he did not dispute them either. Instead, he sought to defend Russian nationalism generally, saying: "Isn't it strange that when, say, French nationalists like Charles de Gaulle were at the head of government, there was no danger in that? But with us it's different? These are the myths created by this movement of `The Little People.' "
    • Glasnost Unstills Antisemitic Voices;Russian Nationalism Seen Reviving Currents of Prejudice; [FINAL Edition] David Remnick. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: Apr 12, 1990. pg. a.01
  • One such writer is Igor Shafarevich. In his best-selling book, Russophobia, he blames "a nationalistic-Jewish conspiracy" for all the evils that have befallen Russia in this century. The Jews are indicted for the social engineering of communism, the crimes of Stalin, the sin of cosmopolitanism. Without blushing at the contradiction, Shafarevich also accuses the Jews of plotting to impose Western forms of democracy on the Soviet Union, in order to expunge the political, cultural and religious traditions of the Russians.
    • Saga of Soviet Jewish emigres has wide impact; [FINAL Edition] ALAN BERGER. The Gazette. Montreal, Que.: Apr 17, 1990. pg. A.1.FRO
  • At the same time, no Russian leader has spoken out against the virulent anti-Semitic press and organizations, charges historian and Jewish journalist Volodya Dolin. [..] The tone was affirmed in a seminal 1989 article on "Russophobia" by renowned mathematician Igor Shafarevich, which painted the picture of a plot by Jews and other non-Russians to belittle the Russian people.
    • Confronting the Resurgence of Anti-Semitism FORMER SOVIET UNION: RIGHT-WING NATIONALISM; [All 04/01/92 Edition] The Christian Science Monitor (pre-1997 Fulltext). Boston, Mass.: Apr 1, 1992.

Section entitled 'Antisemitic writings'

The section was ORish, WP:UNDUE and read like some 'evidence' cherrypicked for a case against Shafarevich. Igor Shafarevich is both a scientist and a politician, a Soviet era dissident and Russian ultranationalist. Composing one fourth of the article on some quotations that are just a tiny piece of his writings definitely makes the article read unencyclopedic. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 08:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Besides, the reference is a dead link. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 08:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Shafarevich's antisemitic writings merited a section on Russian wiki, and so they are merited here. They are certainly notable, not to say notorious. All efforts to remove this will be considered WHITEWASHING.Galassi (talk) 10:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't try to whitewash anything: I am just writing ENCYCLOPEDIA, unlike some other users. We have guidelines like WP:V and WP:NPOV, that I am firmly committed to. And accusing me of some russophile POV is not a valid argument here.
In a way I am Russophile, but if you check the accusations raised against me here, you'll notice that some people regard me as a poster of “El'tsin propaganda″, something that Shafarevich wouldn't like at all.
So, one more revert, and I'll report you somewhere, e.g. at living persons noticeboard. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 12:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't look like good faith to me... I am not interested in your likes or dislikes, but there is no censorship WP:NOTCENSORED in Wikipedia.Galassi (talk) 19:55, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Why on earth do we need there in a supposedly encyclopedic article all those cherry picked quotes, both in English and the original Russian? We just have to cover Shafarevich's main theses, not to collect 'evidence' of his misdeeds here! There is no censorship here, but neither should there be a place for personal grudges!?!
I'm pretty sure, if we resort to close reading, we'll find a number of anti-Ukrainian or, say, anti-Estonian passages in his opus, but do we really need to collect each and every one of them?! --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 07:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you read the article? Shafarevich is considered sufficiently odious to have been requested to resign his US NAS membership. THis is pretty unheard of.Galassi (talk) 07:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm here due to the thread on my talk page. I don't know anything about this person beyond reading the article and quickly checking some of the on-line sources.
• One question is about quotations drawn directly from his writings as illustrations of his views on Jews. The best approach is to limit ourselves to what can be found in reliable, 3rd-party sources and use illustrative quotations sparingly. (More quotes can be placed in Wikiquote.)
• Another question is overall weight. I also just did some searchng in Proquest, an archive of mostly US newspapers. A search of "TEXT(Shafarevich) AND TEXT(jew or jewish or semite or semitic)" gets 63 hits, while "TEXT(Shafarevich) AND NOT TEXT(jew or jewish or semite or semitic)" gets 15. That's an indication that the notability of Shafarevich in the English-language media is connected to his position on Jews. (I've placed some relevant excerpts in a separate section above.) In checking some of the articles I found sources that say the subject or his writings are leading examples of anti-Semitism in Russia. He is also called one of Russia's leading mathematicians. It is in the nature of things that mathematicians get little attention while prominent anti-Semites get much more attention. If Shafarevich had never made any comments about Russian culture or Jews our article on him would probably be 250 words long, like the article on his student Yuri I. Manin. The fact is that the subject is mostly notable due to non-mathematical views, and therefore they deserve appropriate weight in this article.
• We need to make sure to include his response to the accusations, along with any other significant views.
• The excerpts above include some other incidents that should be mentioned, such as an open letter and Cambridge's retraction of an honorary degree. If we devote more space to what we find in 3rd-party sources, and less on quoting the subject directly, that might address some of Miacek's concerns.   Will Beback  talk  18:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• Well, Miacek, this is a fairly rare case when I have to disagree with you. He is notorious for that. I agree that we could use better sources and wording, though, and could do without cherrypicked quotations. But there are plenty of perfectly reliable secondary scholarly sources concerning just that, his antisemitism. Colchicum (talk) 23:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

While the opinion about anti-Semitism of Shafarevich is well-known, please don't add original research into the article. All specific accusations and opinions must be referenced from sources. Citations supplied with comments of a wikipedian is plain and clear original research. Dzied Bulbash (talk) 16:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate Dzied Bulbash's changes and agree with the comments here. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 16:44, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Krista Berglund's thesis (2009)

The following paragraph was added on March 17, 2011:

However, the accusations of ant-semitism contunued, fueled by his other publications (ref), she was accused of taking extreme liberties with histirical facts, in particular he was noted by Semyon Reznik to have claimed that the execution of the Tsar Nicolas II was a ritual murder: Shafarevich assigned Jewish ethnicity to a number of non-Jewish individuals involved in the in the execution, perpetuates the false claims of graffiti in Yiddish at the murder site (ref).

I deleted the paragraph for the following reasons:

• It is claimed that the accusations of antisemitism "continued" after 2009. This may be true, but the reference used to verify this information is a Russian blog entry dating from 2008.
• Semyon Reznik's essay from 2000 and the reference to the execution of Tsar Nicolaus II were mentioned in the article already. The repetitions serve no purpose here.

Krista Berglund's thesis dates from 2009. Allegations that the discussion "continues" should be supported by more recent sources. Nidrosia (talk) 15:59, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the present version, Igor Shafarevich, in his essay, "Russophobia," claims that the murder of Tsar Nicholas II is an example of a "Jewish ritual murder." However, no reference is provided (except for a link to a Russian essay written in 2000 by Semyon Reznik). Has Reznik's interpretation of Shafarevich on this issue been verified in other reputable information sources? Nidrosia (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Unnecessary. Reznik is a major scholar of antisemitism and blood libel, and as such qualifies as a WP:RS.--Galassi (talk) 19:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

An English translation of the relevant paragraph of Reznik's Russian essay is called for. According to Aron Katsenelinboigen and other authors, there is no mentioning of ritual murder in Shafarevich's writings. I hope to post a more detailed look at the literature soon. Nidrosia (talk) 19:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Please do not misrepresent the sources. A.Katsenenilboigen only considers "RUSSOPHOBIA", not his other writings. And he says something entirely different. (http://aronkatsenelinboigen.net/Downloads/SovietUnion_empire_nation_system.htm) --Galassi (talk) 20:14, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Who is Joseph G. Abramson (Абрамсон И. Г.), to whom you attribute the notion that "the accusations of anti-semitism continued, fueled by his other publications..."? (see ref. no. 26). Is Abramson a reliable secondary source? Or is he a partisan propagandist? What is the nature of the website (blog?) called Alternatives (Альтернативы)? Can it be used as a neutral source? Nidrosia (talk) 06:09, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

ALTERNATIVES is a magazine with an editorial board, so it is a RS. Whether that Krista could be an RS: that is an open question.--Galassi (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you proposing that any on-line "magazine with an editorial board" is a reliable source? Nidrosia (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Not "any", but the ones specializing in history and politics would look good to me. RS=Reliable Source. --Galassi (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I've made a few edits, as I was asked to take a look here by Nidrosia. First, as for my personal opinion of the Russophobia essay, I was reading it during the summer but stopped short of finishing, having got fed up with all the insinuations in there, e.g. that even Jewish scientists have somehow been promoted by others, not really deserving their scientific reputation. Apart from some interesting thoughts like the concept of a 'maly narod', that has supposedly played a role in many country's history, it seems like a rather nasty pamphlet. Now, regarding Wikipedia guidelines, that we have to follow, regardless of our own judgment on the merits of an author's work - as for Reznik, his opinions are worthy of inclusion (see google scholar [2]), if properly attributed. I agree that Alternativy doesn't seem like a RS on its own right, but it can be used to source the fact that Shafarevich's writings are still discussed and criticized. If there has been more scholarly discussion after Berglund's thesis, then proper sources are needed. I have made a few edits to address the concerns outlined above. Miacek 08:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Btw, this source makes a good point on “innuendo, interspersed with the occasional qualification” being a typical feature in Shafarevich's writings. This enables him to lay a claim to erudition and more impartial look compared with impudent chauvinist propagandists like Platonov, which, however, doesn't change the essence of Shafarevich's own political writings since Russophobia.Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 08:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Also I see no reason to put an emphasis on the Berglund opinion by the inclusion of a direct quote. --Galassi (talk) 11:39, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to editor Miacek for cleaning up the section on anti-Semitism. As Charles Matthews has pointed out at the BLP noticeboard, Berglund's thesis is not yet available as a published book. I therefore accept the assessment that the citation of her dissertation may be premature. As far as I am concerned, the citation may be deleted. However, if at some time in the future an edition of Berglund's thesis is made publicly available as a monograph, published by an academic publishing house, quotations from her work on Shafarevich may be called for, especially if reviews are favourable. Nidrosia (talk) 21:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Pending publication -

"Krista Berglund (University of Helsinki), in her doctoral thesis of 2009, claims that Shafarevich is not an anti-Semite or extreme nationalist According to Berglund, the Russophobia article was first judged by a small group of emigrants whom Shafarevich had criticised in the article for their deterministic interpretation of history. She claimed that these emigrants presented their argument of Shafarevich's alleged anti-Semitism to Western readers."--Galassi (talk) 11:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Just to make it explicit: Krista Berglund published a book based on her thesis in 2012 : * Berglund, Krista (2012). The Vexing Case of Igor Shafarevich, a Russian Political Thinker. Basel: Birkhäuser/Springer. ISBN 978-3-0348-0214-7. KHarbaugh (talk) 20:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

References

Ordering

The material at the end really needs attention. If the phrase "most recently" is to be taken literally, this point should be the final one. That should be looked at. But in fact the presentation doesn't seem to be the best, anyway. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately the linked page by Gennadii Razumov is really no more than an angry rant. Considering the material, we must look for a more reliable source (not self-published) under BLP policy. It seems clear enough what kind of content the book in question covers. But to avoid OR we need a solid reference. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Altenmann's edit

The full citation reads ""Николай II был расстрелян именно как Царь, этим ритуальным актом (курсив мой - С.Р.) подводилась черта под многовековой эпохой русской истории... Казалось бы, от такого болезненного, оставляющего след во всей истории действия представители незначительного этнического меньшинства должны были бы держаться как можно дальше. А какие имена мы встречаем? Лично руководил расстрелом и стрелял в Царя Яков Юровский, председателем местного Совета был Белобородов (Вайсбардт), а общее руководство в Екатеринбурге осуществлял Шая Голощекин. Картина дополняется тем, что на стене комнаты, где происходил расстрел, было обнаружено написанное (по-немецки) двустишие из стихотворения Гейне о царе Валтасаре, оскорбившем Иегову и убитом за это". (И. Р.Шафаревич. Сочинения в трех томах. Т.2., Москва, "Феникс", 1994, стр. 145)." Do you need a translation!--Galassi (talk) 00:59, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

My edits are related to work of Reznik (secondary source) and his conclusions about Shafarevich. I did not comment on work of Shafarevich. Threfore this full citation is irrelevant to my edits. Please explain how this citation refutes my edits. You provided no explanation, only "full citation". This full citation only confirms the part which talks about false Jewish surnames propagated by shafarevich, which statement I did not delete from wikipedia. - Altenmann >t 14:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

What is more, if anything this citation speaks of cluelessness of shafarevich. Kings have been killed all the times throughout history, during revolutions and without them. why killing of a tsar is so special? kiling of a "tyrant" was glorified and poeticized by all "progressive humanity" at all times as a valiant deed, not as "болезненного". Nevertheless this citation clearly says that shafarevich did not accuse of bloood libel. on the contrary, he wrote that jews shoud stay away (держаться как можно дальше) from tsar killing in order not to be accused of blood libel. but this is my opinion and I am NOT going to add it into article. - Altenmann >t 14:15, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The primary citation has Resnik's italics, specifically where I.Sh asserts the "ritual murder".--Galassi (talk) 20:42, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I.Sh asserts "ritual act", to be murder of Tsar. Blood libel is allegations in murder of Christian children with the purpose of using their blood in Judaic rituals. There are many kinds of ritual murders. Not all of them are of blood libel. To assert that I.Sh meant blood libel is a speculation. If you read Reznik carefully, you will readily see he does not directly accuses I.Sh of asserting blood libel: he merely insinuates it in a demagoigical, emotional way: "Итак, ритуальный акт. Слово произнесено! Брошено возбужденной толпе! При этом кровавому навету придано третье измерение." This is the way I changed text of wikipedia article. Per WP:BLP, we must be careful in accusations. I admit I might have been missing sommething. If this the case please provide the quote where Reznik directly says that I.Sh. meant blood libel, an I will be happy to revert this particular edit. I also will be happy to reconsider my other several edits if you provede reasonable arguments against my explanations. - Altenmann >t 01:27, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

recent revert war

(cur | prev) 05:45, January 5, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ . . (16,094 bytes) (-301)‎ . .(Reverted to revision 531390457 by Altenmann: i provided detailed edit summaries. yours is nothing but personal atttack. please provide detailed objection to article content. (TW)) (undo)

(cur | prev) 20:29, January 4, 2013‎ Galassi(talk | contribs)‎ . . (16,395 bytes) (+301)‎ . .(Reverted to revision 531369705 by Galassi: rv deliberate mistranslation/misrepresentation, DISCUSS.. (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 19:40, January 4, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ m . . (16,094 bytes) (0)‎ . .(→‎Accusations of antisemitism) (undo)
(cur | prev) 19:25, January 4, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ . . (16,094 bytes) (-301)‎ . .(my edit are explained in edit summaries. If yuoi want I can give exact citations friom references, if ou cannkt read tyourself. Undid revision 531369705 by Galassi (talk)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 16:57, January 4, 2013‎ Galassi(talk | contribs)‎ . . (16,395 bytes) (+301)‎ . .(Reverted to revision 530860175 by Galassi: NPOV restoration, and corr. of citation misrepresentation. (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 12:19, January 4, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ . . (16,094 bytes) (+192)‎ . .(→‎Accusations of antisemitism: what REznik actually wrote) (undo)
(cur | prev) 12:15, January 4, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ . . (15,902 bytes) (-127)‎ . .(→‎Accusations of antisemitism: Resnik did not claim that directly. He cited Shaf's phrase with word "ritual act" and then wrote that it must lead to hint that blood libel is involved) (undo)
(cur | prev) 11:53, January 4, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ . . (16,029 bytes) (+60)‎ . .(→‎Accusations of antisemitism: correct rendering of 'small nation' in Russia per shafarevich (and 3rd party sources)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 11:44, January 4, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ . . (15,969 bytes) (-119)‎ . .(→‎Accusations of antisemitism: russophobia was written way before perestroika, so this text is irrelevant) (undo)
(cur | prev) 11:42, January 4, 2013‎ Altenmann(talk | contribs)‎ . . (16,088 bytes) (-307)‎ . .(→‎Accusations of antisemitism: rm editorializing) (undo)

I provided detailed explanations doing edits step by step. Galassi reverted with edit summaries without explanation besides personal insult. Please provide equally detailed objections to my arguments, so that we can discuss them. Surely I cannot argue against personal insults such as "deliberate mistranslation" and "citation misinterpretation". - Altenmann >t 13:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)