Talk:Ingo Haar

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I removed some fringe comments coming from un-notable organisations, they do not seem notable or valid as source for criticism regarding this scholar.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

RE Marek: I checked the short review by Knappstein and it seems, that he claims Haar has specifically picked out the smallest possible West German figures, that seemed to have been Knapstein's point. There are some articles where Haar's and Polish historians' figures contradict, btw.
RE Molobo. I'm not hounding anyone, don't post any more of such warnings (cf HerkusMonte's talk that you've practically littered with those). I've got the page in my watchlist for some time (as I do have quite a number of other German historians). As for 'pointing out background' (in Dodo's manner), I can't see how relevant this is? Knapstein was once SPD member, too, so what? Amongst the authors some of you pushed at ZFI were former communists, too, can't you recall this? Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:52, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
The person is not a valid source of criticism here, if he is going to be here, his connection to far right organizations that have territorial claims on neighbouring countries will be mentioned as well. From Bundestag[1], and other source[2]. Now I am certain we can find more, however I do not see this person as either reliable nor of any scholar value that allows him to be put into this article as valid criticism. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:00, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
From the link Dodo's sock added, we can merely conclude that the German authorities monitor those expellee's groups for the suspected far-right activities/connexions (cf the case of Die LINKE - whilst not far-left in totality, some of the platforms (Kommunistische Plattform) owithin it are classified as such). We even don't know, when K. was member of this supposedly far-right organization (he was social democrat till 1993). What I can tell, though, is that based on my searches both Haar and Knapstein are fairly minor figures. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:06, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Oh, they are many sources confirming it is a front for NPD and far right. And do not compare a respected historian such as Haar to a person who was in far right extremist organisation. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:09, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Do you have a citation to prove that Knapstein is a person who was in far right extremist organisation or that his organizations are a front for the NPD. If not, please don't repeat such accusations. Nazis, btw, do not publish in Preussische Allgemeine Zeitung. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:14, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Who said anything about Nazis Miacek?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
I specifically asked you about far-right, Molobo. I'd like to hear an answer, otherwise we'll just let the matter stay for a while (as I've removed the contested author from the article, cf recent diff). Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
German far right and nationalists are not always Nazis Miacek.DNVP for example was anti-semitic and anti-Polish but a different party from NSDAP. Anyway: rom "Strategien der extremen Rechten: Hintergründe-Analysen-Antworten Stephan Braun,Alexander Geisler,Martin Gerste" states "funktionare der Jungen Landsmannschaft Osteutschalnd einer Vorfeldoganisation der NPD" page 255. Far right can be sourced later, but it is easy to find.Here we go:Verfassungsschutzbericht

Germany (West). Bundesministerium des Innern Bundesminister des Innern, 2006, page 129 "rechtsextremiststiche Jungen Landsmannschaft Ostprusen"--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:22, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec) From the interview in the Junge Freiheit [3] he was there in the late 1999s. Oh, and he was KICKED OUT of the SPD. Wonder why. Volunteer Marek  18:11, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

He was expelled in 1993, if I'm not mistaken. This was the time when even the CDU no longer had to pay (symbolically) tribute to the expellees' electorate (due to natural causes, if we may say so). Brandt's Neue Ostpolitik had actually served as an impetus for many to cross the floor in 1970s; otherwise, there were many expellees amongst the SPD ranks, too. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

As for Haar's study being quite recent (as VM pointed out in an edit summary) I don't object, but this does not mean the study is necessarily the most accurate one in this field. It's quite interesting that a user has tried to discuss the problems in 2007, already. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 18:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah... that 2007 discussion just shows that... well, let's assume good faith here ... just shows that that user didn't know what he was talking about (for example claiming that Haar didn't even make a study and only made a statement in a radio interview). Volunteer Marek  18:58, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Well I had noticed myself the contrast between Haar's figures, and those (1.1 mil) of a Polish author (citing according to German edition Bernadetta Nitschke. Vertreibung und Aussiedlung der deutschen Bevölkerung aus Polen 1945 bis 1949. München, Oldenbourg Verlag, 2003. ISBN 3-486-56832-9. S. 280.), too, hence my question. As I can't access either study at the moment, I can't judge anyway.Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 19:04, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Note well Haar didn't even make his own study, he merely cited the figure of 473,000 confirmed deaths in the 1965 German Church Service study, read the Haar article Ingo Haar, Straty zwiazane z wypedzeniami: stan badañ, problemy, perspektywy. Polish Diplomatic Review. 2007, nr 5 (39)This is waht I am referring to
Studia z lat szeœædziesi¹tych i siedemdziesi¹tych o konkretnych liczbach ofiar wypêdzeñ
Gesamterhebung zur Klärung des Schicksals der deutschen Bevölkerung in den Vertreibungsgebieten z 1965--Woogie10w (talk) 19:27, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Miacek was quite correct to strike out that East Prussian hiding behind his book. First of all the web page of the Ostpreussen Expellees is not a reliable source that belongs on Wikipedia. Secondly the author Ostpreussen web page does not understand the details of the statistics in question. He claims they do not include deaths due to famine and deportation, this is wrong the figure of 473,000 confirmed deaths does include deaths due to famine and deportation. The area of dispute by Steinbach is the figure of 1,906,000 unconfirmed dead and missing. The unconfirmed 1,906,000 is poorly sourced and not reliable according to Dr.Rüdiger Overmans who gave a summary of this unpublished data at a 1994 historical symposium in Poland. Overmans pointed out that the figures are incomplete and only a partial not an exact accounting of total deaths. Overmans believes that since there are only about 500,000 confirmed deaths of German civilians in eastern Europe, the balance being a demographic estimate, that new research on the number of expulsion deaths is needed.
The bottom line is this: Polish historians maintain that that most of the deaths occurred during the flight and evacuation during the war, the deportation to the U.S.S.R. for forced labor and after the resettlement due to the harsh conditions in the Soviet occupation zone in post war Germany. This is in sharp contrast to the 1958 West German government Schieder commission report which maintained that these deaths occurred after the war on Polish territory.
The ultra right web page editors like the East Prussian hiding behind his book use these tragic deaths for modern day political propaganda, --Woogie10w (talk) 20:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Demographic Estimates[edit]

We have only general demographic estimates of the war dead in Poland, the Holocaust and the Expulsion of the Germans-there is no exact tally

  • Poland has been able to confirm only 1.5 million war dead as of last year [4]
  • The IPN reported in August of last year that Poland lost 5.6-5.8 million persons in the war. [5]
  • Yad Vashem has has collected and recorded the names of half of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. Millions more still remain unidentified [6]
  • In 2006 The German government reaffirmed its belief that 2 million civilians perished in the flight and expulsion from Eastern Europe. They maintain that the figure is correct because it includes additional post war deaths from hunger and disease of those civilians subject to the expulsions

--Woogie10w (talk) 20:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

We really need to put these famine and disease deaths in the proper perspective.

  • Due to the war the natural death rate in Poland rose from 1.3% to 1.8%. Nearly 1.5 million persons suffered from TB. Source War Losses in Poland by Nurowski
  • The Dutch government reported 80,000 deaths after to the war due war related disease.
  • In the USSR during 1946-47 about 1 million died due to famine.
  • In occupied Germany the economic infrastructure was devastated due to a war they started. And so the Germans too suffered the same fate as postwar Poland, Holland and the USSR, famine and disease!--Woogie10w (talk) 23:10, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Here is a summary of the studies on German Expellee deaths

A.The Church service study from 1965 that lists 473,000 confirmed dead and 1,906,000 reported missing. Haar cherry picked the 473,000 confirmed dead and dismisses the 1,906,000 reported missing. Overmans says both figures are flawed and does to accept them as definitive.

B.The German Federal government issued a report in 1989 that estimated 600,000 deaths only due to intentional acts of violence and dead in camps or in forced labor. Overmans says he does not trust the figures and wants new research on the losses. Haar believes that this study reflects the correct historical view of the Expulsions.

C.In 1958 the West German government issued the often quoted demographic study that estimated 2,225,000 deaths. In 2006 the German government reaffirmed its belief that the figure is correct because it includes deaths due to war related famine and disease. Overmans says he does not trust the figures and wants new research on the losses. Haar says we should view the study in light of the cold war and the anti-communist attitudes of that era.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Re:C. IIRC, the "German government reaffirmed its belief" actually refers to one single minister stating in an interview that he believed the 2.225 figure to be correct - I don't think there was an official statement or anything like that. Volunteer Marek  00:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Not so Marek please read BULLETIN DER BUNDESREGIERUNG page 2 [7] Zwei Millionen von ihnen, meist Alte, Kinder und Frauen, überlebten den Marsch nach Westen nicht--Woogie10w (talk) 00:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It appears you're right. That's... uh, a little scary. Volunteer Marek  01:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It appears Haar is right that the Expulsions figures have been inflated for decades for political reasons. Overmans and Pitor Eberhardt have analyzed the figure and found it to be flawed--Woogie10w (talk) 02:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

From the text der Charta der Heimatvertriebenen vom August 1950 erteiltensie dem Gedanken an Rache und Vergeltung eine entschiedene Absage It's very nice to know that former SS and Nazi members who signed the Charter renounced revenge for their removal in occupied by Nazis territories.See some sources in Polish quoting Ralph Giordano and Micha Brumlik[8] about the hypocrisy and Nazi background of the creators of the Charter. German wiki gives detailed names:[9]. Several Nazis and nationalists from before the war.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 01:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

What else is new Malobo! I was in Germany 40 years ago and was a guest in their homes. In private the tone was Rache und Vergeltung--Woogie10w (talk) 02:25, 9 February 2011 (UTC)