Talk:It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)

First Line

The first line of the song, "Darkness at the break of noon", refers to a nuclear explosion.

i thought it was a reference to the book "darkness at noon", a novel about communism. --Progjunky 10:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I have read that this song "is to capitalism what Darkness at Noon is to communism." I have also read the nuclear interpretation. But as I don't have a good reference for either, I'll just take the line out. --ubiquity 12:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

THe "politicians" portion has to go...

It's unsubstantiated, and barely relevant to the song. The comment that Gore selected this quote as a method to distance himself from the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal is absurd and unverified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djcbuffum (talk • contribs) 04:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The Sopranos: inconsistency?

Excuse me for watching too much television but I'm pretty sure it's the episode in Season 6 Part 1 (IIRC) where AJ and his girlfriend are making out and accidentally set the car on fire - and not the final episode - where this song is used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.13.128.101 (talk) 00:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

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In need of a re-write

In my opinion, the "It's Alright Ma" article is in need of a total re-write. Prior to the change I just made, all the lead had to say about the song was that it was the "penultimate" (2nd to the last) track and that it may have been performed as early as 1964 , though it couldn't have been performed earlier having been written that year. Not having much else to say about Dylan and his song, the article jumps to two full paragraphs on the Byrds' cover. Then it brings things back home, declaring the song one of Dylan's most "verbose," which might have been significant if not for "Bob Dylan's 115th Dream" on the album's flip side (667 words versus 774).

Though Clinton Heylin does work his way in (only to be followed by a clever but ultimately inane quote from an unnamed, unsourced critic), the problem is that the article largely ignores what Dylan's biographers have written about "It's Alright Ma", most of which is readily available through Google Books. I plan to remove some of the unsourced "information" that's currently here and incrementally re-structure and re-write the article, primarily based on these sources. Meanwhile, I'd welcome (be grateful for) feedback and contributions from others. Allreet (talk) 06:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sayantan m 17:01, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing the article as soon as possible.--Sayantan m 17:01, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Check Against GA criteria

I'll finish the check completely in next few days. Meanwhile editors please try to resolve the problems I'm stating. It'll help save our time.--Sayantan (talk|contribs) 06:58, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

1. Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct

(b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation

2. Verifiable with no original research:

(a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline

(b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose)

(c) it contains no original research

3. Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each

5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute

6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio

(a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content

(b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions

Review and comments

Glad to another well researched article on a Dylan song. I have some comments and suggestions those may help to make some small but necessary changes for this article.

Lead

• There is an article on Howard Sounes. Put the link.
• I think it's OK to avoid any reference since all the information are repeated in the body. But later when adding information to the lead make sure the info is repeated in body with appropriate reference.
• I see the words "famous" is used in the lead (as well as in three other places). Please make sure that is exactly the word used in the corresponding text as an adjective to the concerned lines. Otherwise please remove them according to WP:PEA. (check the same for the other places the word is used)
• In the ref #5 (ie. http://www.allmusic.com/song/t1991560) there is a mention of the song's performances in the documentary "Don't Look Back" and HBO version of the video "Hard To Handle." Please include the details in the lead as well as in body.

Bob Dylan's Version

• "This opening echoes the Book of Ecclesiastes..." Since this is not unanimously agreed conclusion, use the name of the author/critic who said it.
• "These lines seemed particularly prescient when Dylan performed the song on his 1974 tour with The Band, a few months before Richard Nixon resigned as President of the United States as a result of the Watergate crisis." I'm not this kind of
• "Powerful"-- Again a "peacock term" (see WP:PEA)
• I don't think an analysis of the rhyming structure is required. (A reader may not have enough amount of knowledge to understand them.)
• Add the date of release of Playlist: The Very Best of Bob Dylan '60s. Is the link required for this compilation album?
• "In a 2005 reader's poll reported in Mojo magazine, "It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)" was listed as the #8 all-time greatest Bob Dylan song, and a similar poll of artists ranked the song at #21. In 2002, Uncut magazine listed it as the #5 all-time Dylan song."This line, under my judgment, will be a part of the section "Influence."
• If it's possible, try to add the number of times this song has been performed by Dylan on stage (I don't remember now but I saw on some website that this kind of info is available).
• "Described by Dylan biographer Howard Sounes as a "grim masterpiece," the song features ...", "The lyrics of "It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)" express Dylan's anger at hypocrisy, commercialism, consumerism, warmongers and contemporary American culture.", "Dylan has stated that "It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)" is one of his songs that means the most to him..." --All these (or very similar) sentences appeared in the lead. Surely they required to be included in the body but I suggest to use a different sentence construction as far as possible. Otherwise to some reader these repetition may turn out to be very boring and will affect the overall reading experience.
• "the words pour out quicky.." Check spelling.

Cover versions

• Remove the photo, since it serves no great purpose in this section or in this article.

Influence

• There's an article on Clinton Heylin. Use the link.
• favorite--When writing about a song made by an American singer-songwriter, please use American spelling. (favorite)
• "notable"-- Avoid this word. (see MOS:OPED)

• Thank you for your comments. I believe I have addressed them except the following:

1. I wasn't sure what the comment was in the 2nd bullet under "Bob Dylan's version." The remark about the lyric seeming particularly prescient comes from Trager's book, and other author's have noted the (apparent) relevance of the line when it was performed during the Watergate crisis.
2. I did not remove the rhyming structure. While not required, it is relevant to discussion of the song and reliably sourced. And while not all readers may understand it, it is a fairly standard way of describing a rhyming structure and not too difficult to figure out what it means for someone who really wants to. I can add an explanatory sentence along the lines of "In other words, the first 5 lines rhyme with each other, the 7th through 11th lines rhyme with other and the 13th through 17th lines rhyme with each other, and the 6th, 12th and 18th lines rhyme with each other." But that is kind of clunky, and I actually do not have a source for the explanation.
3. I did not add the number of times it was performed. [HisBobness.info], which is apparently part of dvdylan.com, does list 772 performances through 2007, but I am not sure that qualifies as a reliable source and it is already out of date. Rlendog (talk)

Y Done.

OK. I think it's ready to be a GA. And as of the second bullet under "Bob Dylan's version", I guess that was some silly typing mistake. I don't even remember what I was going to say there!! Anyway, good job and I wish you happy new year 2011. Also thanks for cooperation.--Sayantan (talk|contribs) 00:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Great job on this article! Moisejp (talk) 12:17, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Christopher Hitchens

I re-instated ref to the final essay of Christopher Hitchens, who quoted a verse from "It's Alright Ma" at the head of the essay. I found the fact that one of the outstanding polemical writers of our time should quote this verse in his final essay, written shortly before his death from cancer, to be at least as interesting and as relevant to this article as the fact that "During his campaign for President in 2000, Al Gore told talk show host Oprah Winfrey that this was his favorite quotation." Mick gold (talk) 15:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Concerns in song go beyond the socio-political

I added a passage (and a mention in the lead out) in the article that addresses concerns in the song which go beyond the mere socio-political aspects already discussed. I think the song's concerns (at a core level) are existential in nature above and beyond all else. The line which opens up the key to the whole deeper meaning is its most famous: "He not busy being born is busy dying." It is as if Dylan sees the whole existence of society and politics as a delusion--that the one possible note of hope to be found in the song is perhaps in one's personal quest and growth, however painful and difficult. It is as if he is challenging the human bieng to seek and try to find..."the answer is blowin' in the wind." Garagepunk66 (talk) 08:39, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

While it shares a sense of prevailing entropy

"While it shares a sense of prevailing entropy": this phrase is meaningless. Entropy is a scientific term that the writer (User:Rlendog has misused. "Disorder" is not equivalent to "entropy", but does this maintain the intended meaning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:4011:1800:0:0:0:0:5 (talk) 21:08, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

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Rhyming scheme

I did this edit a few days ago :
“...the intricate rhyming structure is often missed: AAAAAB CCCCCB DDDDDB in the verses and AAB in the chorus.”
changed with :
“...the intricate rhyming structure is often missed: AAAAAD BBBBBD CCCCCD in the verses and EED in the chorus.”
with the explanation :
“rhyming scheme corrected and clarified ("A" rhymes from the first verse do not appear in the chorus, and it's more logical to call the non reoccuring rhymes A, B, C, the one reoccuring in both the verses and chorus being D)”.
It has been reverted with the following explanation :
“You may well be right, but this rhyming scheme isn't supported by Heylins book. You'll need to find a reliable, 3rd-party source for this.”
Now, I haven't access to the aforementioned book, I don't have a reliable 3rd-party source to backup my revision, I'm no english scholar, english isn't even my primary language, yet the fact that, on Wikipedia, being probably right is considered secondary to being able to provide a “reliable 3rd-party source” is quite puzzling to me. How reliable is a source that is shown to provide a bogus information ? And it's kinda circular logic : a source is considered reliable just because it has been published on a supposedly reliable network by a presumably reliable author... Yet even the best authors make mistakes and even the most prestigious publishers fail to correct mistakes.
Well, in this particular case, could someone with a college level education in english litterature, or at least a serious interest in the matter, tell what this notation should be, and provide a trustworthy source to back it up ? Normally that source shouldn't have to be specifically about that song, or even Bob Dylan – or should it ?
--Abolibibelot (talk) 18:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi! It was me who reverted your edit. No offence was meant, but, even though you might well be correct, a reliable third party source will be needed. On Wikipedia the threshold for inclusion should be verifiability, not truth (more details on this can be found here). As I say, I'm totally prepared to believe that you're right and the rhyming scheme should be AAAAAD BBBBBD CCCCCD, but you need to find a reliable, third-party reference to support it if you want to change it. As for what constitutes a reliable source, you can find the answer to that question at WP:V. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 18:22, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Kept. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:38, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

The article fails to meet WP:NPOV (WP:GACR #4), specifically WP:AESTHETIC. For example, the second paragraph begins by saying "The song features some of Dylan's most memorable lyrical images." This would maybe be appropriate in a review, but it's not up to Wikipedia to decide which lyrical images in a song are the most "memorable". Other lines I'd call attention to are "Dylan sings in a new prophetic voice that would become his trademark", "...the critique in [the song] is more direct and less allusive", and "These lines seemed particularly prescient...". The first and last of these are WP:PUFFERY, and the middle is a subjective analysis. The prose of the article needs to make clear that these are the viewpoints of certain writers. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 19:07, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I started this article way back in 2006, and it was just a brief account of the song's origins and a list of albums where it had appeared. In fact, my last act with regard to this article was reverting an edit with an unsourced opinion about the song's meaning. I had no idea it would grow into the current immense article, but I'm very impressed. I take your point about WP:NPOV and WP:PUFFERY, but I'm sure the article could be repaired to remove that without sacrificing the - to coin a term - encyclopedic sweep of its contents.ubiquity (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that the article could be fixed without removing much information, the opinions just need to be attributed properly. The Midnite Wolf (talk) 06:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if User:BennyOnTheLoose, having had a recent TFA on Dylan, would be interested in taking a look and giving a view? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:10, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks to me like the article can be fixed up to GA without too much effort, but I haven't checked it against sources. (There could be a some examples of OR, a common issue in Dylan song articles.) Some of the covers may not meet WP:COVERSONG. A couple of the sources (e.g. genius.com, imdb.com) aren't appropriate. If anyone would be able to add inline tags I'm happy to check specific examples; I've got immediate access to most of the Dylan books cited. Regards, 23:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Above comment was from me but I think I messed up the signature. I've made some changes to the article, and would be happy to work on any specific issues identifed. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I can see a citation needed tag, and a few places where the prose could do with tidying up, but to my eyes the WP:AESTHETIC, WP:NPOV and WP:PUFFERY concerns are dealt with. The article does need to be fully cited to meet the GA standards, but once that's done I think it would be over the bar. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I've added a citation and tweaked the text (removed the lyrics) to match what the source supports. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Mostly happy: two points on the citation note:

• (the false start can be heard on both the 6-disc and 18-disc versions of The Bootleg Series Vol. 12: The Cutting Edge 1965–1966, released in 2015): artistic works can be used to cite their own contents (and we don't normally use a footnote in that case), but as we're doing a bit more than simply describing what any idiot can hear (that is, interpreting what can be heard as a "false start"), I think we need a secondary source here.
• The author of Ecclesiastes laments (2:15–16) "The fate of the fool will befall me also; to what advantage, then, have I become wise? But I come to the conclusion that this, too, was futility, because the wise man and the fool are both forgotten. The wise man dies, just like the fool.": if nothing else, that inline citation should be a footnote (WP:PAREN), but to keep WP:SYNTH happy, it would be ideal to have a secondary source cited which has explicitly made that connection (I assume the Rogovoy citation above would do the job?)

UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

BennyOnTheLoose, did you see the above? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:34, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I hadn't. Added sources (Dylan's own site) for the false start. Added an additional citation from Rogovoy, as the quote above is in the book and he makes the connection. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Given that, I'd be happy to close this as keep. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 17:24, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.