Talk:J. J. McCarthy

Lead

@Centurion Seraph: I've made a post on WT:NFL and invite you for discussion. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:40, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's put aside any grievances and actually work together to improve the article, as this should be settled before the draft invites a ton of other eyes here potentially causing more issues.

The current lead reads as:

Jonathan James McCarthy (born January 20, 2003) is an American football quarterback. He played college football at the University of Michigan. McCarthy led the Michigan Wolverines to three consecutive Big Ten Conference titles, culminating in a national championship in 2023. He finished his career at Michigan with a 27-1 record (.964) as the starting quarterback, the third-highest winning percentage in college football history.

While my reverted edit read as:

Jonathan James McCarthy (born January 20, 2003) is an American football quarterback. He played college football at Michigan, leading the Wolverines to three consecutive Big Ten Conference titles and a national championship in 2023. McCarthy finished his Michigan career with a 27-1 record (.964) as a starter, the third-highest winning percentage by a college football quarterback.

Proposed edit:

Jonathan James McCarthy (born January 20, 2003) is an American football quarterback. He played college football at the University of Michigan, leading the Wolverines to three consecutive Big Ten Conference titles and a national championship in 2023. McCarthy finished his career with a 27-1 record as a starter with Michigan, the third-highest winning percentage (.964) in college football history.

This keeps both the university and football program without using WP:EASTEREGG; we don't need to add Michigan to the second link since it is self-evident from context who the Wolverines represent. I still disagree with the use of "culminating" when it reads just fine without it, if a word has to be added here then let's try to find a better one. Him being a quarterback was clearly established in the opening sentence and does not need to be mentioned again twice two sentences later. I linked to winning percentage and moved it to the more relevant section, as the general audience not too familiar with sports would probably have no idea what it meant. The hidden wikitext is there simply to help speed up the editing process when he gets drafted in a few days; those should have never been removed. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:07, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

For the college references, I prefer your later version (which Bringingthewood also attempted to restore):

He played college football for the Michigan Wolverines, leading them to three consecutive Big Ten Conference titles and a national championship in 2023.

It's consistent with the rough consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League/Archive 22 § Revisit: College links in bios' lead (reaffirmed at the close to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Football League § College in lead (again)) to link the college football program—the most relevant link—in the lead, while the university can be mentioned and linked in the body. As a comparison, Tom Brady's lead doesn't mention that he played at Foxborough, Massachusetts, or the Greater Boston Area, it mentions the teams he played for, like the New England Patriots.—Bagumba (talk) 04:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Centurion Seraph: Thoughts? I've also adjusted the wording that he "lead" them to three Big Ten titles since Cade McNamara started the 2021 game. See my new proposed edit below with Bagumba's wording. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Jonathan James McCarthy (born January 20, 2003) is an American football quarterback. He played college football for the Michigan Wolverines, leading them to two consecutive Big Ten Conference titles and a national championship in 2023. McCarthy finished his career at Michigan with a 27-1 record as a starter, the third-highest winning percentage (.964) by a quarterback in college football history.

@Bagumba Ironically Tom Brady’s lead does mention that he played for the University of Michigan though. & saying that he went to school at the University of Michigan is no comparison to saying that he played in Foxborough. That’s the worst example I’ve ever heard, I’m not saying he played at Ann Arbor. I’m mentioning where he went to college.

@Dissident93 In reading that last edit it seems you removed the University of Michigan again, no thanks to Bagumba’s assertion, the entire reason why we’re talking about this, again, and you reverted your same wording in the two other sentences; same as before. Furthermore you want to revert that he won three consecutive big ten titles, down to your preferred version of two. He won three, use won if you dont like the word led. Less desirable than any other ive read.

I thought we weren’t going to revert any more edits, but if you guys are itching to go against local consensus, by all means go for it. Centurion Seraph (talk) 23:46, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Dissident93 Really your first proposed edit today was the best i have seen, I might’ve been able to live with it; push come to shove. Since im trying to find common ground…. Centurion Seraph (talk) 00:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I know you think the word quarterback is redundant but he’s not the third all-time winning percentage for a starter in college football; you’ll have to define the position group somewhere. Centurion Seraph (talk) 00:09, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

That's true, but the previous sentence had it mentioned twice. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I haven't reverted anything in days, we are attempting to actually reach consensus via discussion. Both Bagumba and Bringingthewood have both supported my proposed edit. And we shouldn't be credited backups for "leading" teams to anything if they didn't contribute in a major way. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Dissident93 he did contribute that season substantially. Incorrect Centurion Seraph (talk) 00:10, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Like i said the word ‘won’ in place of ‘led’ is more than enough. You dont erase a championship he won Centurion Seraph (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Could you please make one single comment (or edit an old one) instead of posting several at once? You make following your comments harder than it should be and making edit conflicts likely. Anyway, he was credited for throwing 500 yards and five touchdowns in 2021 and didn't start or play in the Big Ten game. He shouldn't be credited for either leading or winning it if he didn't do either; we aren't talking about a national championship where every member gets a ring or something. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

He scored seven touchdowns that season and you don’t want to credit him with winning a big 10 championship? you don’t think that they get a ring for that too or get credit for that? that’s absurd. This is why trying to compromise with you is straining, you’re going in the wrong direction now. Centurion Seraph (talk) 00:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

He didn't lead nor win the Big Ten title having 500 yards and seven touchdowns in a season with zero starts, this is not "substantial" as you put it. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, McCarthy was not the starting QB in 2021, but he did play meaningful snaps and made some big plays in key games that year as a change-up for Cade McNamara. That should be made clear. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I’m not sure how you justify saying he didn’t win a Big Ten title. That’s a season cumulation title. Not one game. Example: If you played in all 12 games before that game and got injured, you’re still considered a Big Ten champion. Centurion Seraph (talk) 02:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Dissident93 Sorry for the second comment but he did play in that game and he did win that game, it’s that simple Centurion Seraph (talk) 02:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If nobody else disagreed with it before apparently me then I suppose so. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 03:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

McCarthy won three Big Ten titles. No question. But the way the lead reads right now, it suggests that he was the starting QB for all three. The lead really should mention how he was the backup/mix-ups QB in 2021 and then unseated McNamara as the starter early in 2022. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Correction

Might want to fix under the specs for professional life, you have that odunze was drafted 10th overall by the vikings 184.55.153.243 (talk) 01:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Tom Brady - University of Michigan

@Bagumba you wrote this as a reason why it is improper to include the University of Michigan in the lead:

” link the college football program—the most relevant link—in the lead, while the university can be mentioned and linked in the body. As a comparison, Tom Brady's lead doesn't mention that he played at Foxborough, Massachusetts, or the Greater Boston Area, it mentions the teams he played for, like the New England Patriots.”

But Tom Bradys lead reads University of Michigan. So im still confused. You’ve reverted edits from some Wolverine players that I personally edited, but not others that have U of M in the lead, like Tom Brady who you referenced. The majority of past University of Michigan football players have it listed as University of Michigan. This is why i have done so, to match the community consensus of past Wolverines leads. I feel as though the football program is linked through the career information under college, rendering it redundant. Is University of Michigan allowed there either? Or nowhere in plain sight; for certain players only? Centurion Seraph (talk) 02:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Linking to the program in the lead was reaffirmed as the consensus at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Football_League#College_in_lead_(again). There's a saying here about WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, basically that the existence of bad examples does not mean they are justified. We operate on consensus. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 03:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I see. But if you believe a bad example exists in Tom Brady, and know it is there, why not edit his page as well? Why the double standard?

Surely people are going to see his page more than any other U of M football alumni, see that and think thats the standard template. Centurion Seraph (talk) 15:01, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Centurion Seraph: Everyone is a volunteer here. You too are encouraged to be bold and fix pages like Brady's. That said, I did go and change Brady. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 06:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC)