Talk:James George Lee Steere

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Does "Lee Steere" have a hyphen?

I recently renamed and edited this article to remove the hyphens from "Lee Steere", on the grounds that (to quote my edit summary) "Most references do not show the hyphen".

SatuSuro questioned the reference on my Talk Page, under the section "which refs?" I've copied SatuSuro's comments verbatim below, so that we can discuss the matter here, which I think is more appropropriate than my talk page. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i have books signed by some of the family - and also heaps of cites about them - they use the hyphen... lee-steere that is

but hell if you were to do a typical afd 'count the examples' is it a bit even at http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/?searchtype=X&SORT=D&searcharg=lee-steere&searchscope=2&submit.x=42&submit.y=14&submit=Submit Satu Suro 11:52, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the end it is like name variants - somewhere in the lead para a comment or footnote that ties in the variant usages is important to note - then you can do anything else whereever you choose - as long as the main art in its lead has some indication of the variances - i dont think it is a good idea for wp to determine which is the correct way to do it - as he himself can be found with both ways of doing it Satu Suro 03:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The 1949 version of the ADB has him as Lee-Steere, Sir James George.

But the current version not only dispenses with the hyphen, but relegates Lee to a middle name, leaving his surname as Steere alone.

But then, his nephew Sir Ernest Lee Steere is given the surname Lee Steere (unhyphenated).

So that's 3 different versions. It's all very confusing. I’m actually related to that family, distantly, but I have no inside info that could help. Sorry. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 03:48, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In answer to the original question, about the refs: The version of the article before my edit included 3 citations, 2 under "References", 1 under "See also". Two of those do not have the hyphen. I've also added these:

Muir, Alison & Dinee (1982). Forrest Family, Pioneers of Western Australia, 1842-1982. J.R. Muir & Son. p. 26. ISBN 0959288309.

Schorer, Albert (1968). History of the Upper Blackwood. Bunbury, Western Australia: South West Printing and Publishing Co. Ltd. pp. 24–36.

Both of these books show no hyphen. I also have copies of:

Erickson, Rica (1979). Dictionary of Western Australians 1829-1914, Volume 3, Free, 1850-1868. Nedlands, Western Australia, 6009: University of Western Australia Press. p. 490. ISBN 0855641630.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)

The Bicentennial Dictionary of Western Australians pre-1829 - 1888, Volume III, K-Q. Nedlands, Western Australia, 6009: University of Western Australia Press. 1988. p. 1838. ISBN 0855642769.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)

None of these show the hyphens. Nor do my other references: Boyup Brook Shire, Landgate, Boyup Brook Tourist info centre.

Do we have any citable references that show whether he used the hyphen himself? Mitch Ames (talk) 03:55, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies it does not get any simpler - I was thinking more of ernest (very easy to get confused) who has issue as well - james tended to be hyphen free - but again see http://henrietta.liswa.wa.gov.au/search/?searchtype=X&SORT=D&searcharg=james+lee+steere&searchscope=2&submit.x=55&submit.y=18&submit=Submit - i still say the easiest way to quieten this flurry of posts down is to simply footnote the fact that for some members of the family - the hyphen has been used at various stages - and leave it at that - admittedly my quick review independent of the leads given here is that james was relatively hyphen free while ernest is more of a mixed bag Satu Suro 03:59, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But as I indicated above, it's more than just whether or not there's a hyphen. It's also whether the surname is just Steere, or has a Lee attached to it (with or without a hyphen). -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

sorry again - it is always found as Lee Steere - as a double name see all the cited items so far - a good double check is http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=lee+steere - no-one has ever separated it as far as I have seen Satu Suro 04:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But you haven't read what I wrote. I've provided a reputable cite, the Australian Dictionary of Biography, where it does list him as Steere, Sir James George Lee.

It shows "Lee Steere, James George" as an alternative name. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 05:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok I believe it is wrong - even if the eds of the ADB or Bolton at the time thought it was right to do it that way :0 - I am off, cheers - in the end - I have stated already that who cares - as long as the lead para has mention of the variants - so that these drawn out conversations are not necessary in the future if the variants are covered? Satu Suro 05:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, when I read that "James Steere was born at Ockley, Surrey, England, third of six sons of Lee Steere ...", I really have to wonder. It seems very apparent that when he was born his surname was Steere, nothing else. Somewhere along the way, it might have been changed by the addition of Lee, but we have no information about when or why, or even if, that happened. Or how formal it was. Or whether the hyphen is mandatory, optional, or non-existent.

Also, you're chopping and changing, Suro. Up above, it was "i dont think it is a good idea for wp to determine which is the correct way to do it - as he himself can be found with both ways of doing it" - but now, you're saying that something for which there is direct evidence (viz. that his surname remained Steere), is "wrong". Those are two rather polar opposites, wouldn't you say.

Also, it's not nice to be disparaging about other editors and their intentions. Thank you. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 06:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to Schorer's History of the Upper Blackwood, p24:

The name Lee was added to the name Steere on the marriage of John Steere to Miss Lee, daughter of John Lee.
James George Lee Steere was the third son of John Lee Steere ..."

According to Muir's Forrest Family, Pioneers of Western Australia, 1842-1982, p26:

... the Steere family lived at Jayes in Surrey, England. The name Lee Steere [sic] was added to the name Steere after a marriage between the two families. Edwards's father Sir James George Lee Steere was the third son of this marriage..."

There is sufficient similarity between the surrounding text in each book to suggest that Muir (1982) used Schorer (1968) as the source for this information, and Muir does list Schorer in the Bibliography and References at the end of the book. (There are no inline citations in the book.) Mitch Ames (talk) 09:46, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! So, James was not the 3rd son of "Lee Steere", but of "John Steere" who later became "John Lee Steere". When James was born he was plain James Steere, but when his father changed the family surname from Steere to Lee Steere, James did likewise. That all makes perfect sense now. The question still remains, though: did James spell his surname with a hyphen or not. Even if his father did or didn't, that doesn't necessarily apply to his children. And I can now agree with SatuSuro when he says the ADB is wrong when it lists him as "Steere, James George Lee". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 00:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

omg - this could be endless - jack of oz - please see your talk page - I no longer wish to unravel the lee bloody steeres ( I once knew an alcoholic member of the family tree - one is enough) Satu Suro 01:46, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what your problem is, Suro. Not all isseues can be resolved in one fell swoop, wham bang, thank you ma'am. Some issues need to be worked on over a period of time, with the truth being teased out slowly, strand by strand. If that's not your style, fine, there are plenty of willing others. Cheers. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 03:17, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More likely James was born Lee Steere, because it seems likely that his father John changed his (John's) surname when he married Miss Lee, and it is also likely that James was born after that marriage.
And now for some completely unreliable OR: my wife went to school with Bindi Lee Steere, who didn't spell her name with a hyphen. She was apparently of the same family, not a direct descendent of Edward John Lee Steere (James' son, who married Caroline Forrest), because she's not in the Forrest family tree, but she may have been a descendent of one of Edward's siblings, and thus of James. (Not that this necessarily helps any!) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:39, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Unindenting)
As part of my research into rewriting the History section of the Boyup Brook article (preview, in my sandbox), I today received some information about Mary Scott (one of the early settlers in the Upper Blackwood), including a photocopy of what appears to be a newspaper article from 1875 describing the inquest into Mary Scott's death. The article includes "... Mr W Scott, who resides about 10 miles the other side of J. G. Lee Steere's Esq. ...". There is no hyphen. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I was a little hasty in dismissing the ADB's entry. They're not known for accurate research for nothing, after all. That article calls him Steere throughout, until close to the end: In later life he and his wife were usually known as Sir James and Lady Lee Steere. Most of the family followed this practice including his nephew (Sir) Ernest [Augustus] Lee Steere, one of whose grandsons inherited Jayes in Surrey.

When exactly "later life" started is not stated, or what caused the change. But it was obviously much later than father John's marriage to Miss Lee. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 18:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, Sir Ernest Augustus Lee Steere's son Sir Ernest Henry Lee-Steere*, a former Lord Mayor of Perth, turns 98 today 22 December (that's assuming he isn't dead and we missed it, but I can't find any reference to his death anywhere). (* I can't vouch for the accuracy of that hyphen either; most references to him are unhyphenated, but a few have a hyphen.) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Purely for the benefit of other belated readers, Ernest Henry Lee-Steere died on 9 January 2011. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 06:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More info

What things have been named after him?

MBG02 (talk) 17:30, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]