Talk:Jeremy England

The question of conversion to orthodox judaism

it can be fairly said that orthodox judaism is a more scripturally-adherent variety of judaism compared to, say, reform judaism. there are too many examples of this fact to be comprehensive but the reform judaism stance on tattoos with a jewish theme (namely that those who bear them are neither shunned at temple nor forbidden burial in a jewish cemetery) should stand in for the rest. suffice to say, orthodox judaism displays a far more rigorous observance of Leviticus 19:28.

this is one example of the more scripturally-adherent outlook contained within and practiced by orthodox judaism. this is something that orthodox judaism has in common with, say, evangelical christianity. evangelical protestantism is universally seen, and practised as, a more scripturally-adherent style of life and approach to religion. the nature of this more scripturally-adherent style of life is such that the motion out of one's prior approach to life and religion and into evangelical protestantism frequently leads to radical changes in position on any number of issues. one example, out of the vast cosmos of such differences, might be a more literal adherence to and advocacy for the biblical verses addressing homosexuality (Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1:26-1:27, 1Corinthians 6:9-6:11, 1Timothy 1:8-1:11, Matthew 8, and 19:12, Acts 8 and Luke 7).

decisive shifts in one's position on, in this example, homosexuality often lead to the attenuation, or even severing, of relationships previously amicable. the decisiveness of such shifts in position contribute to another universal term for one's entry into evangelical protestantism: conversion. the born-again routinely refer to themselves as having converted to a more scripturally-adherent style of life and approach to religion.

it follows that if both orthodox judaism and evangelical protestantism may lead one to radical and decisive shifts in outlook—shifts commonly remarked upon as bearing the hallmarks of conversion from a less scripturally-adherent way of life and into a more scripturally-adherent way of life—it follows that the term "conversion" is likely appropriate and accurate to the task of describing a person in jeremy england's position: a man who did not know hebrew despite having had a bar mitzvah who then, suddenly, decided to learn that language so he could read the torah in the original with an eye towards more stringent observance of its precepts.

anyone who had been indifferent to their non-sectarian christian upbringing before suddenly being seized with a passion to learn koine greek and biblical aramaic so that they could better understand the portions of the bible most relevant to leading a scripturally-adherent way of life would be spoken of as having "converted" without the speaker giving a second thought to the term. the same holds for england's sudden passion for the practice of judaism that features a more scripturally-adherent approach to life, a passion whose result england has himself termed "orthodox judaism".

it follows that the subject heading is accurate and does not need to be changed along the lines suggested by the anonymous editor. Georgelazenby (talk) 04:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The argument presented attempts to draw a parallel between Orthodox Judaism and Evangelical Christianity by focusing on their respective commitments to scriptural adherence. However, this comparison is fundamentally flawed and represents a category error. Orthodox Judaism and Evangelical Christianity, while both rooted in religious texts, operate within entirely different theological, cultural, and legal frameworks, making direct comparisons problematic and misleading.

First and foremost, Orthodox Judaism is not simply about adhering more strictly to scriptural laws; it is a comprehensive legal, cultural, and spiritual system that has developed over thousands of years. The criteria for what constitutes a conversion to Orthodox Judaism are not subjective or fluid. They are established through a long-standing tradition and halachic (Jewish legal) framework, which includes specific rituals, declarations, and the guidance of a recognized Orthodox rabbinical authority. The idea of "conversion" in the context of Orthodox Judaism is a formal and well-defined process that involves not just personal commitment but also communal acceptance and adherence to the mitzvot (commandments) as interpreted by Orthodox halacha.

In contrast, Evangelical Christianity does not have a parallel system of legal requirements for conversion; rather, it focuses on personal faith and a relationship with Jesus Christ. The term "conversion" in this context often refers to a personal, spiritual transformation rather than a legal or communal process. This difference underscores why equating the two experiences is not appropriate. In Evangelical Christianity, one’s transformation might be primarily internal and individual, marked by personal conviction and change in beliefs. In Orthodox Judaism, however, conversion is a communal and legal status change that involves adherence to a specific set of religious laws and practices, as recognized by the Orthodox community.

Furthermore, an essential aspect of Orthodox Judaism is its view of Jewish status, which is determined by matrilineal descent. According to Orthodox halacha, a person is considered Jewish if born to a Jewish mother. This principle is non-negotiable and has been consistently upheld for millennia. It is not subject to reinterpretation based on individual belief or practice, nor is it influenced by changes in personal religiosity. If someone does not have a Jewish mother, Orthodox Judaism requires them to undergo a formal conversion process to be recognized as Jewish, regardless of their level of observance or knowledge of Jewish texts.

This is particularly relevant when discussing individuals like Jeremy England, who may adopt a more observant Jewish lifestyle without undergoing formal conversion if required. If England’s mother is Jewish, Orthodox Judaism would consider him Jewish, regardless of his commitment to learning Hebrew or practicing Jewish rituals. This is because Jewish status in Orthodox Judaism is not simply about one's level of scriptural adherence or personal transformation; it is about adherence to specific legal standards that govern Jewish identity.

The Orthodox view on Jewish status based on matrilineal descent further illustrates why comparing conversion to Orthodox Judaism with conversion to Evangelical Christianity is a category error. In Christianity, particularly within Evangelical circles, conversion is largely about a change in belief and lifestyle, often independent of one's familial or communal origins. In contrast, Orthodox Judaism's view of Jewish identity is deeply rooted in lineage and legal standards that are not easily altered by personal conviction alone.

Therefore, when determining if someone has converted to Orthodox Judaism, the focus must remain on whether they meet the strict requirements set forth by Orthodox halacha, including adherence to the principle of matrilineal descent and undergoing an Orthodox conversion if necessary. Any comparison to Christian forms of conversion, which do not involve these specific legal and communal criteria, fails to capture the unique and rigorous nature of conversion to Orthodox Judaism. L282osfsw (talk) 03:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)