Talk:Juilliard School/Archive 1

Archive 1

Yo-Yo MA

I wonder if he should be included in the graduates list since he only attended pre-college. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.231.26.25 (talk) 21:50, 20 December 2004 (UTC)

Ronnie James Dio?

I have read biographies of former Elf/Rainbow/Black Sabbath singer (and current solo artist) Ronnie James Dio that says he is a graduate of Juilliard. Can anyone confirm this? The biographies I've read said that he acquired his phenomenal vocal range from his Juilliard trumpet training.--MarshallStack 06:24, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Grammer

Should Kelsey Grammer be listed under the "students" section? I think he was expelled, but he was still a student. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.247.24 (talk) 05:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Pre-College Division

Can someone fill in the date when Andrew Thomas started directing the program. It is currently "( )" and should be removed if there is no date.

Post Mon. July 24 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bfleet315 (talk • contribs) 21:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad from Juilliard?

The article says that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a graduate of the The Juilliard School Pre-College. Considering who he is and that his article suggests that he has always lived in Iran, I'm suspicious about the factuality of this statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.102.113 (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

- Be bold! If you doubt the claim, then investigate further, or edit the article. All up, you're probably right since you took the time to comment! Good luck. Rob (Talk) 12:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Kyle Gass

I'm removing Kyle Gass from the list of alumni. There seems to be no evidence he attended other than his and Jack Black's claims; furthermore, Juilliard didn't have a "classical guitar" program until quite recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by D SCH (talk • contribs) 15:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Documentary

Several years ago, there was a documentary made (I forget the name), and among the more interesting things that the documentary discussed was that the vast majority of Juliard alumni don't make it big, but rather return to their hometowns to teach music locally. (I remember this as my high school orchestra teacher recieved both his degree, and masters in viola preformance from Juliard).

Worth mentioning in article, I'll try to find out somemore info. Zidel333 06:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Why is this notable? Isn't this true of every school? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.88.123 (talk) 09:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It is notable in the case of Juilliard because of its reputation as the best music school in the US. At one time, it was assumed by the general public that graduating from Juilliard assured a top career in Music. Although I have not seen it, this documentary would help put this widely held myth in perspective. A year or two ago the New York Times published a similar story which made the front page in the Arts and Leisure section. A story that said that many graduates of Manhattan School of Music did not make it big in music would not have made the front page of that section. Juilliard is another story.

On another note, this phenomenon is a symptom of larger issues with the Music world in general--reduced audience sizes, orchestras folding, salaries increasing, etc, etc. But that is a whole other issue. Nymaestro 06:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Right...

Isn’t Juilliard Just a ‘Psuedo Intellectual Musical Centre For Pushy Parents To Throw Their Children Into’ if they happen to have tons of money?

I mean, I’ve heard 'rumors', seen it happen, that some students be intensively taught nothing but Mozart concertos etc to perform to an audience of prospective idiotic sponsors so that they might gain investment toward next years funding. Instead of investing in pupils with actual talent or musical brains. I wonder how many composers, performers they have let down due to this wonderful institution?

Pushy parents and a lot of money seem to do a lot for some musical establishments, but not the wealth of its cultural output. [This person did not sign this post] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.92.168.163 (talk) 09:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Response:

OK, well you are certainly raising a few issues here. Let's start by talking about the valid points you make:

-Part of what you say seems to be commenting on the role of the conservatory and the increasing difficulty of a career in classical music. The conservatories continue to churn out highly accomplished musicians in a world where fewer and fewer jobs are available. This is not specific to Juilliard, but to all conservatories (Eastman, New England, Peobody, etc.) Conservatories need to prepare their students for careers outside of music given the odds of success based on the numbers.

-You draw a distinction between student in a conservatory who have actual talent and musical brains vs. those who don't. I do not know where you heard this (or even if you are qualified to know the difference--sorry, but I had to say that), but this distinction is more applicable to the teachers than the students. Getting into these conservatories is extremely difficult, and there is certainly a baseline level of talent for those who attend. On the other hand, the teachers are often substandard with respect to teaching musicianship, and can have negative effect on talented students.

Now on to some of your absurd comments:

-Psuedo Intellectual???? I don't know how this applies to anything here, except perhaps to describe a certain impression of elitism that many people see in all classical music activities. I can say that if you put a bunch of students in a room, the music students will be among the smartest. Case in point--New York City's Special Music School, which contains students K-12, is a public school that accepts students only by audition (in Kindergarden). Guess which public school has the HIGHEST reading and math scores in New York City??? The Special Music School. There is a correlation between musical ability and real (not pseudo) intelligence.

-Pushy Parents???? Where did that come from? It is true that some parents of Juilliard students can be pushy, but no more than any other conservatory. A more apt description is "involved". Quite frankly, we would all be better off if parents were as pushy and involved in their children's education as Juilliard parents. We might have a few less school shootings if this were the case nationally.

I don't know what kind of cultural output you are looking for in order to consider an institution worthwhile. You might want to reconsider some of your comments. Nymaestro 04:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Juilliard2.gif

Image:Juilliard2.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Juilliard American Opera Center

There is no mention of opera in this article. Someone should include the Juilliard American Opera Center in its proper place. I don't know enough about the school to include it myself. There are at least two references to the center in Wikipedia and numerous hits in Google under the title of this query.--Pat 20:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

college template

The school is technically an institute of higher education, or university/college. So the templates for universities should be used, like in Harvard University. 71.169.52.63 (talk) 18:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Laundry List of Alumni

Anyone else feel like the alumni list is really just a laundry list? Shouldn't "notable" graduates have at least their own wikipedia page? Cephyr 22:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Perhaps the list should only include those who have wikipedia articles. That would at least make it smaller.Classicalia 07:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference between the Noted Alumni and Students lists? Miles Davis didn't even graduate, so he's not really an alumnus. Several quite famous alumni are only listed in the students section. This has me confused. Prometheusg 14:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Many schools allow non-graduates to be called alumni. So Miles Davis would be considered an alumnus, but would not be considered a graduate. Nymaestro 04:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted Robin Williams from the list, as he didn'tgraduate from Julliard - see http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE3D6123CF93BA25756C0A967958260. This list needs to be cleaned up for accuracy.99.226.189.64 (talk) 01:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that a seperate page should be created. See Oberlin College's Wikpedia page. I think it and the Alumni list are done very well. (Nicolaususry (talk) 20:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC))

CfD discussion about merging Category:Juilliard School of Music alumni into Category:Juilliard School alumni

Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 16:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

In particular, are these two categories effectively duplicates of each other (allowing them to be merged together), or is Juilliard School of Music alumni a necessary/appropriate subcat of Juilliard School alumni? All thoughts welcome, particularly from those who know more about the Juilliard School than I do! Bencherlite 14:45, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The institution's name is "The Juilliard School" not "The Juilliard School of Music". The Juilliard School has a Music Division, along with Dance and Drama Divisions. I would say that there should be an Alumni section within The Juilliard School, which by the way, should include drama graduates, like Kevin Kline and Dance graduates. Nymaestro 19:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

If you want that comment to count, you'll have to add it to the discussion taking place, rather than here. Click on "discussion" in the box above. Bencherlite 20:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The discussion was closed with "no consensus". Bencherlite 06:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Fictional Students?

Harry Kim, from the Star Trek: Voyager show, went to Julliard as mentioned on the show. He is shown playing his clarinet. Noteable? Lots42 (talk) 02:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Alumni addition

I've added Nina Simone to the Alumni. She's much better known than many on the list and has an extensive page of her own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.23.210 (talk) 14:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Alumni - sections

I think it would be interesting to divide the huge alumni list into sections (drama, music and dance). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karljoos (talk • contribs) 02:01, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

David Garrett / Beckham

I think "the David Beckham of the classical scene" should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karljoos (talk • contribs) 12:18, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Removal of alumni list and link to List of Juilliard School people

I suggest deleting all the alumni listed in the main article and include a link to List of Juilliard School people. This list is large and obtrusive, include names of alumni who are good musicians but not really well-known and I really feel that a link to a full article (List of Juilliard School people) would make the main article more accessible. I've done something similar in an article about another major conservatoire.--Karljoos (talk) 17:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea. In its present state, we'd lose the separation between Drama and Dance and Music, but that isn't sourced, anyway. TJRC (talk) 19:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I've done some work on List of Juilliard School people. I didn't want to delete the names of those alumni without an article (which I think should be removed) and included names of people listed on the main article, and I cleaned up the descriptions of the alumni (some where too long and many included POVs).--Karljoos (talk) 20:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Proper School Name

Isn't it officially 'The Juilliard School', 'The' not just being an appendage to be discarded. That's how it is at the front door. Promotional materials generally say 'Juilliard', but you'll never find 'Juilliard School'. I know it's nit-picky, but I think 'Juilliard' and 'Juilliard School' should redirect to 'The Juilliard School'. Kzathon (talk) 16:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)kzathon

Pop culture

Do we really need every mention ever? I say, limit to five. Lots42 (talk) 19:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we really need any of them. It's probably sufficient to note that, as one of the best-known musical schools in the United States, Juilliard is frequently referenced in fictional works. TJRC (talk) 21:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Cory Rivard?

In the year 2000, a visitor from Winnipeg, Canada named Cory Rivard, secretly lived in the Juilliard dorms for approximately 1 school year. While there, though never enrolled, he attended classes, ate from other student's meal plans, and even dated some of the students. Controversy ensued when student Spencer Topel, rumored to be jealous of Cory's status at the school, finally alerted Juilliard Security, and then finally the Dean. Cory was eventually kicked out of the Juilliard School of Music, but his legacy lives on.

I'm suspicious of the existence of this Cory Rivard character, but I haven't tried to check it out. Anyway, I definitely don't think it belongs so prominently in the Juilliard School#History section. Maybe under the "Notable Graduates" section or something like that -- again, if he exists. --Rschmertz 05:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That exact same edit by anon IP has been added before. I removed it, like yourself. I believe the edit to be simple non-sense and would happily 'eat my hat' if wrong. Rob (Talk) 14:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That story is strictly non-sense. I have been affiliated with the Juilliard for more than 15 years and have had no knowledge of this incident. This contributor I feel is doing nothing more than vandalizing this page. We shoud be weary of this persons contributions. Junebug52 1:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Cory Rivard is irrefutably real, as he is a friend of mine, and he does claim to have attended Julliard under these conditions. There is even a chapter in a book somewhere about it. See picture: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=242846345373&set=a.10150267416250374.502423.648265373&pid=7997218&id=648265373 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.79.155.52 (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Spelling

spelled it wrong. (Should be "Juilliard".. not "Juillard".) -Jazz77 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jazz77 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 8 April 2003 (UTC)

Worlds most c.f country's most

Please note that Juilliard's tagline on Google very explicitly describes itself as "one of the world's most prestigious performing arts conservatories." This is not hyperbole by any measure, and should be noted in the introduction to the school on the Wikipedia page. Please do not revert to the previous version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.31.233.130 (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

If this is Juilliard's opinion of itself, it should be noted as such, rather than treated as an objective fact. TJRC (talk) 07:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

"Juilliard is considered one of the most prestigious performing arts conservatories in the world.". Referenced, but, is it encyclopedic? I don't think so. This is not the place for it.--Karljoos (talk) 16:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

So if a reputable source makes a verifyable value call, Wikipedia cannot report it? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:37, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It is possible to find the same opinion for any major conservatoire in Europe or the States. It should not be in the article because, as Karljoos says, it is un-encyclopedic.--79.150.56.127 (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Adding such information, even when providing a source, seems frivolous to me. It isn't neutral POV. This kind of information isn't neccesary to establish the importance of an institution in an article (even the article on Harvard and Oxford universities don't bare any self-promotion in their lead paragraph) and it does make the article sound as a college prospectus/viewbook. And as the person above explained, it would be possible to find the opinion of someone saying such thing for every major music conservatory. --Karljoos (talk) 21:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

If it's a widely-held belief then it should be in the article, perhaps even the lead. NPOV doesn't allow us to ignore the fact that some institutions are held in very high esteem by many people. In fact, the Harvard article does note its particularly high level of prestige in its lead paragraph and if the Oxford article doesn't then we've failed to write the article that would be most clear and helpful to our readers.

So the question falls, as it almost always does and as it should, on the available evidence and its persuasiveness. What sources confirm (or contradict) the claim and are they sufficiently to support such a weighty claim? ElKevbo (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Karljoos. I never read in the Encyclopædia Britannica that this or that institution is one of the best ones in their field. That's for PR departments and viewbooks.--83.37.200.6 (talk) 15:31, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a world of difference between "the best" and "the most prestigious" (or, more likely, "among the most prestigious"). I understand the POV dilemma and the need to keep cruft out of the lead but at some point it becomes dishonest for us to hide the fact that some institutions are significantly more prestigious than others.

Would it be helpful if I found some high-quality sources supporting this assertion, like those used in Harvard University?

Incidentally, Britannica does say that this institution is "internationally renowned" which is about the same as what I am proposing. ElKevbo (talk) 16:10, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that in my opinion the discussion above does not support this revert. There are arguments presented above which favour the inclusion of a phrase like "It is considered to be one of the world's most prestigious music schools." There used to be a source for this in the article and I suggest to restore it. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:51, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Name

I don't have an evangelical zeal about these things, but I'd like to register my opinion that the recent move by Ljgeddes (talk · contribs) from Juilliard School to The Juilliard School is not supported by WP:Naming conventions (definite or indefinite article at beginning of name). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:39, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I think you're right; although it's not a university, the same logic at WP:THEUNI applies; at a minimum, it was not an uncontroversial move, and should have been discussed first. TJRC (talk) 22:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

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