Talk:Justin Berry

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Reverted edits - attempt to build consensus[edit]

JzG reverted the following edits for reasons of sourcing. I've set forth the reasons for these edits and would appreciate any input as to how they can be made more acceptable. I'd like to discuss each edit separately so we can reach a consensus as to which edits should stay and which shouldn't. I've indented article taxt for ease of reading, and italicized changed words and phrases. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Heading change[edit]

I changed the heading from Kenneth Gourlay to Ken Gourlay. I'm not sure how this was a sourcing issue; I changed it to match how Gourlay is referred to in the following paragraphs and in Berry's quote. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

First paragraph[edit]

Add wikilink to Camp CAEN[edit]

I wikilinked to the article on Camp CAEN to provide more context about how Gourlay brought Berry to Michigan. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Berry's allegation of child sexual abuse[edit]

I changed

In his testimony, Berry said that Gourlay had molested Berry while Berry was in Michigan attending this camp.


In his testimony, Berry alleged that Gourlay had molested him while Berry was in Michigan attending this camp.

I see alleged as the more accurate terminology, since it was an accusation of wrongdoing on Gourlay's part, but it's a very minor point. I also changed the second reference to Berry to read him because saying Berry's name three times in one sentence sounded awkward. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed sentence about Gourlay's conviction[edit]

I removed this sentence and put it into a separate paragraph in altered form, since reviewing the sources revealed that the sentences Gourlay received were not accurately divided between the crimes committed against his two victims. The original sentence said:

Gourlay was convicted of several statutory counts of having sexual intercourse with Berry and another teen while both were under 16, Michigan's age of consent, and was sentenced to 10 to 15 years in prison.

Having more paragraphs but shorter makes readong easier, and that the importance of Gourlay's criminal trials and convictions is better explained in a separate paragraph. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Second paragraph[edit]

Gourlay's allegations[edit]

I created this paragraph, which stated that:

Gourlay alleged that Berry "had addictions to drugs and money, and eventually to sex" both before and after they met. When Gourlay heard about Berry's foray into pornography, he "pleaded with [Berry] to find another source of income and redoubled [his own] efforts to help him grow his (website) design business."

This is a scaled back version of a longer quote. The factual information regarding Berry's addiction & activities has been corroborated by Berry, and Gourlay's quotes come from a letter he wrote. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<ref name="GourlayLetter">Letter from Ken Gourlay published by GenerationQ</ref>

GenerationQ published this letter from Gourlay before his conviction. If anything, Gorlay's attempt to justify what happened goes far to show that he was plainly wrong in his whole conception of the situation. I read the letter and I came away thinking "Wow, how could he be so blind to what he was doing?" --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Third paragraph[edit]

Gourlay's conviction for molesting Berry[edit]

Berry's allegations were upheld in court and Gourlay was convicted in March 2007 of nine felony charges and one misdemeanor for having sexual intercourse with Berry starting in May 2002 while he was three months below the age of consent.

This corrects an inaccuracy in the original sentence cited to the source below. Previously, it sounded like Gourlay's conviction for molesting the second boy also covered his molestation of Berry. This clarifies what he was convicted of WRT Berry. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<ref name="GourlaySentencing">Ken Gourlay Sentenced, Attacked In Prison, Associated Press, May 26, 2007</ref>

This is an Associated Press article on Gourlay's sentencing. A convenience link is provided to a copy stored in a blog. The blog itself is not, however, a source of information, only of a copy of the article. The AP article would be a valid source even without the link. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Gourlay was also convicted of 13 counts of third-degree criminal sexual conduct for sex with another minor, age 14, on multiple occasions from December 2004 to May 2005.

Here, I'm referencing the other molestation case against Gourlay, which only came to light because of Berry's coming forward. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<ref name=InmatesAttackChildMolester>Inmates Attack A Child Molester, Detroit Free Press, May 26, 2007, 435 words. (ID: dfp0000434183): Minutes after being sentenced Friday, a Detroit man who made national headlines for molesting boys he'd met on the Internet was assaulted inside a Wayne County courthouse lockup, resulting in hospitalization. Ken Gourlay, 29, was sentenced to 10 to 15 years in prison on 13 counts of third-degree criminal sexual conduct involving a 14-year-old boy, who is now 16 and lives with a foster mother in Harper Woods. Gourlay molested the boy from December 2004 to May 2005. Gourlay made…</ref>

This is a Detroit Free Press article retrieved from their website. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Gourlay received a sentence of 10 to 15 years in state prison.
<ref name="GourlaySentencing" />
<ref name=InmatesAttackChildMolester />

This is a Detroit Free Press article retrieved from their website. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Current activities section[edit]


Starting in 2006, Berry has worked as a paid public speaker and has secured professional representation.


Starting in 2006, Berry has worked as a paid public speaker represented by an agent.

Since the extra verbiage didn't add meaning to the sentence, I shortened it. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

External links section[edit]

These all come from GenerationQ (website), an Australian LGBT online magazine. --SSBohio 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

  • The fundamental problem is that GenerationQ and blogs are not acceptable sources for material of this seriousness about living individuals. Just find a better source. Uncontroversial factual corrections are... uncontroversial. When well sourced, anyway. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I can understand where you're coming from on that. However, you also removed content sourced to the Detroit Free Press and the Associated Press, and removed the addition of wikilinks and other edits not related to the concerns mentioned above. Am I correct in understanding that I am in safe territory to make those edits, and that it's just the GenQ / blog material that you're objecting to?
    • As far as GenerationQ goes, what are your objections to it as a source? As has been discussed here before, I don't think I'd trust it to provide analysis, but I would trust it to provide direct quotes from involved individuals. To my mind, it's better than The Globe, but not as good as The Times. :-) Thanks, SSBohio 00:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


Wow, this article is still being Whitewash (censorship)? I'd expect after all this time for there to be a little objectivity. (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Is The New York Times Censoring this Article to preserve their "Reputation"?[edit]

Somebody please Cover this article with an unbiased nature. If you want to know the truth: —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

External links[edit]

The following external links I moved from the grossly bloated EL section. Per WP:ELNO point 1, these sources should either be integrated into the main body of the text or deleted (if they can't be integrated, what do they add to the page?) The EL section isn't a holding area for possible references, that's the talk page. Even the titles are repeating information in the case of the DFP and LSJ articles. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 17:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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  1. ^ Wayne County: Lockup Safety Questioned, Detroit Free Press, May 31, 2007, 526 words, (ID: dfp0000436183): After being sentenced Friday on child molestation-related charges, Ken Gourlay returned to a Wayne County courthouse holding cell…<nowiki>