Talk:Kadesh (Syria)

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Two Kadesh articles

There was already another Kadesh article at Kadesh (South of Israel), so why is that information also in this article? Yuber^(talk) 00:52, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Also, just to be certain, is the villiage of Kedesh any relation to either of these cities?

There is a Kadesh in the mountains north of Israel and Kadesh Barnea south of Israel, two different but related borders, North and South. When Kedesh and Kadesh and Qedesh are all cognates, Ka= high, in both Akkadian and Egyptian, desh = waters. The high places are sometimes called Migdol, sometimes called bamath. It just depends on who is talking when. The village of Kadesh may be a modern site near what was once a "city". The size of bronze age cities wouldn't be much more than a modern village. Jehrico was at one point the size of an extended family, jerusalem was once a fortified well.Rktect 02:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kadesh in the Mountains

In Egypts 18th Dynasty Kadesh in the mountains was the southern border of The Nahrin or Mitanni and the northern border of Egypt and Egypts northernmost province, Canaan. By the 19th Dynasty the Mittani were expanding southward opposed by Egypt and their Amurru vassals to the west.[the Battle of Kadesh] Pritchards book on the ANE is good on this, The Cambridge Atlas of Mesopotamia by Michael Roaf (CAM) and the Atlas of Egypt edited by Baines and Malik are good also especially as regards the tie in to the Amarna letters and the Conguest both citing cities like Hamath, Yenoam and Beth Shean as in their path.Rktect 02:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Kadesh in Syria, see also Kadesh (South of Israel) or Kedesh

Kadesh (the most popular spelling; more accurately Qadesh) was an ancient city of the Levant, located on the Orontes River, probably identical to the remains at Tell Nebi Mend, about 24 km southwest of Hims (ca. 34°35′N 36°31′E / 34.583°N 36.517°E / 34.583; 36.517) in what is now western Syria.

History

Kadesh in the mountains is first noted as one of two Canaanite cities (the other being Megiddo) that led a coalition of city-states opposing the conquest of the Levant by Thutmose III. In mounting this opposition, Kadesh (known as Qidshu in the Akkadian language Amarna letters) was probably guided by the ruler of Mittani, Egypt's primary foreign rival in control of the Levant. Defeat in the subsequent Battle of Megiddo ultimately led to the extension of Egyptian hegemony over the city, as well as the rest of southern Syria. Correspondence between the ruler of Kadesh and the pharaoh Akhenaten is preserved amongst the Amarna letters. The names of three kings of Kadesh survive from contemporary sources: Suttarna (fl. c. 1350 BC); Etakkama (c. 1340s) and Ari-Teshub (fl. c. 1330-1325).

The city is best known, however, as the location of one of the best documented battles of the ancient world, the Battle of Kadesh, staged between the superpowers of the 13th century BC: the Egyptian and the Hittite Empires. An Egyptian vassal for approximately 150 years, Kadesh eventually defected to Hittite suzerainty, thereby placing the city on the contested frontier between the two rival empires. In response to this Hittite ascendancy and expansion southwards, the Egyptian pharaoh Ramesses II prepared an aggressive military response. The subsequent battle, fought near Kadesh, very nearly witnessed an Egyptian military disaster. Ramesses II was able to recover the initiative, however, and the two armies withdrew in stalemate, both claiming victory. Kadesh, however, remained under Hittite overlordship.

The subsequent impasse between Egypt and Hatti ultimately led to what is now recognised as one of the earliest surviving international peace treaties, concluded several decades later between Ramesses II and his Hittite counterpart, Hattusili III.

Location

Kadesh is located on the border between Lebanon, Syria and Israel, anciently the border of Hittite retnu (the watershed of the Orantes and the Egyptian province of djadi (the watershed of the Jordan)in what is now northern Israel. Some archaeologists and historians have placed it on the Orantes plain north of Damascus, but in the Egyptian campaign literature the description mentions Kadesh in the mountains and also Biblically Kadesh is located near Dan fringing the Golan heights east of the Litani. In the Bible its a city of sanctuary and thus somewhere in the northern borders of Israel. Its name qdŝ (Kodesh) refers to a high holy place or bamath. In Roman times there were springs coming forth from a cave into a pool referred to as the baths. In the Egyptian 18th Dynasty it was the border between the land of the Amurru (Lebanon), the land of Aram (southern Syria), Amon (Northern Canaan) and the tribes of Dan, Zebulon, Naphtali, and Manassah. The preponderance of the evidence locates it between the headwaters of the Litani, Jordan and Orantes in the mountains south west of Damascus near Aram Nahrain the land of the two rivers.

Mentions of nearby towns in Egyptian Campaign accounts

RAMESIS II (Late Bronze Age, 13th c. B.C.E.): "The Asiatic Campaigning of Ramses II" ANET., pp.255-256.
Ramses Meri-Amon, the town which is in the Valley of the Cedar. His majesty proceeded northward. his majesty reached the mountain range of Kadesh, His majesty reached the town of Kadesh the town of Shabtuna, the town of Arnaim; the shore in the land of Amurru ....
Year 5, 3rd month of the third season, day 9, (Ramses II). in Djahi second campaign the mountain range south of Kadesh. the town of Shabtuna.... in the year 8, Merom. in the year 8, Salem. The town on the mountain of Beth-Anath, Kerep (Palestine ?). The town in the land of Amurru, Deper (region of Tunip in Syria?). The town Acre. The wretched town, wicked, Ashkelon.

SETI I (Late Bronze Age, 13th c. B.C.E.):
Campaign of Seti I in Northern Palestine," ANET., pp.253-254. Year 1, 3rd month of the third season, day 10.
Asiatics the princes of Retenu, the princes of Syria (Kharu) "The wretched foe who is in the town of Hamath is gathering to himself many people, while he is seizing the town of Beth-Shan.
an alliance with them of Pahel. He does not permit the Prince of Rehob to go outside." Beth-Shan. the town of Hamath, the town of Beth-Shan, the town of Yanoam.

The Poem of Pentaur

[1]

Now His Majesty had made ready his infantry and his chariotry, and the Sherden of His Majesty's capturing whom he had brought back by the victory of his strong arm; supplied with all their weapons, and the plan of fighting having been given to them. His Majesty journeyed northward, his infantry and his chariotry with him, and he made a good beginning upon the march in Year 5, second month of the summer season, day 9. His majesty passed the fortress of Tjel, being powerful like Mont in his going forth, all foreign countries trembling before him and their chiefs bringing their gifts, all those who were disaffected being come bowing down through fear of His Majesty's might. His army went along the narrow defiles like one which is upon the roads of Egypt. Now when days had passed over these things His Majesty was in Ra`messe-miamun, the town which is in the Valley of the Cedar. And His Majesty proceeded northward. But when His Majesty had reached the hill country of Kadesh, then His Majesty went ahead like Mont, the lord of Thebes,and he crossed the ford of the `rnt'1) with the first army of Amun-gives-victory-to- Usima`re-setpenre`. His Majesty arrived at the town of Kadesh, and now the wretched Fallen one of Kadesh was come and had collected together all the foreign countries as far as the end of the sea; the entire land of Khatti was come, that of Nahrin likewise, that of Arzawa, Dardany, that of Karkisha, Luka, Kizzuwadna, Carchemish, Ugarit, Kedy, the entire land of Nukhashshe, Mushanet, Kadesh; he left no foreign country not to bring it of every distant land, their chiefs there with him; every man with his infantry and their chariotry exceeding many, without limit of the like of them. They covered mountains and valleys and they were like the locust by reason of their multitude. He left no silver in his land, he stripped it of all its possessions and gave them to all the foreign countries in order to bring them with him to fight.

Wrong photo of Kedesh

In the description of this photo it's writte:

An areal view of the hill with the ruins of the ancient city of Kadesh.

However, the Kadesh they are speaking about is of Tel-Kedesh in the Northern Galilee. This photo description should be corrected and moved from Syria's Kadesh to Northern Galilee's Tel-Kedesh. For example look at the from page of the michigan digging expedition in Northern Galilee Tel-Kedesh: Tel Kedesh Archaeological Expedition Haggibar (talk) 07:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong etymology of the name Kadeš

Kadeš was a Hittite city. Egyptians called Hittites as Khat (the transformation of Hata or Khata into Kad is obvious. Hittites spoke similar language to Rig Vedic Sanskrit, so the term "deš" in Sanskrit means Deza or "country, land"... In Slovenian language the word remained as "dežela"(country). The sacred, royal animals of Hittite people were Cats (Khat, Kot, Kit,...) which were protecting their cities (check: Hattuša liongate for example). Whole name of Kadeš means "city of cats(Hittites)" in "Indo European".

Requested move 26 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 05:57, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kadesh (Syria) → Kadesh – This article has been moved from "Kadesh" without adequate discussion, it was discussed at the talk page for another article, Talk:Kadesh (biblical). This was an important city in the ancient world, site of one of the most important battles in the ancient world, the Battle of Kadesh. I realise we need to consider whether to move the current "Kadesh" article to "Kadesh (disambiguation)", or "Qadesh", the title it had a short time ago. PatGallacher (talk) 01:24, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There are multiple places that are or were called Kadesh and it's not at all clear that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Attempting to disambiguate using transliteration variants is just asking for confusion. Kadesh, Qadesh, Kedesh etc. should all redirect to the same place and be disambiguated from there. – Joe (talk) 12:11, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Joe Roe is completely correct, and that argument was part of the reasoning behind the conclusions of the discussion on Kadesh (biblical). I agree that the discussion took place at Talk:Kadesh (biblical), but 1. that is a related article and I think it is fair to assume that many editors who follow this talkpage follow the other one as well 2. consensus there was very clear, 4:0. Debresser (talk) 17:35, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While the "Battle of Kadesh" may have been an important battle, it does not warrant a separate title without an epithet in parentheses, since the biblical Kadesh seems to me to be more widely known. In fact, when I searched for the biblical Kadesh, I was first directed to an unrelated article. Therefore, having distinct epithets in parentheses to disclose unto our readers what the article entails is the best route to take.Davidbena (talk) 18:23, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of fact, Battle of Kadesh is indeed without any ambiguation, and that is fine, since there are no other Battles of Kadesh that are equally important. The place name Kadesh, however, that is not necessarily related to the Battle of Kadesh, and indeed, as Davidbena notes, the placename is famous even without the battle. Debresser (talk) 18:48, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.