Talk:Keswick, Cumbria

Keswick, Cumbria is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 10, 2019.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 20, 2014	Featured article candidate	Promoted
September 6, 2014	Peer review	Reviewed

Current status: Featured article

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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Climate Data

> 1900 hours of sunshine total showing. I doubt this very much - it would make it just about the sunniest place in the UK, and I don't think it's that! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigalxyz123 (talk • contribs) 11:29, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-TFA

The article is scheduled for the front page next month, and as a co-author of most of the text I'd be grateful for any comments in advance of the front page appearance. Tim riley talk 21:39, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It looks good, as far as I can see. - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for that. Fingers crossed. Tim riley talk 15:21, 29 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

"the Castlerigg stone circle on the eastern fringe of the town, which has been dated to between 3000 and 2500 BC". This is cited to Bott, but he is probably not an RS on stone circles. The article on the circle cites the leading expert, Aubrey Burl, as dating it to c. 3200 BC. I am also doubtful about quoting Collingwood, a dated and inexpert source.
"In Roman Britain Cumbria was the territory of the Carvetii". The source, Charles-Edwards, describes it as the civitas rather than territory.
"The ten-hour journey from Whitehaven to Penrith via Keswick cost 12 shillings (equivalent to 60 pence), at a time when country labourers typically earned £24 a year or less". The different denominations make the point unclear. Maybe "The ten-hour journey from Whitehaven to Penrith via Keswick cost 12 shillings at a time when country labourers typically earned 10 shillings a week or less".
"The Keswick Reminder was founded in 1896, and in 2014 continues to be published every Friday." And in 2019?
"As at 2014 no other religions maintain dedicated buildings in Keswick;" Also needs updating.
The sport and culture sections may need updating if the 2014 details are out of date. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:16, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Smashing stuff! Thank you, Dudley. Shall deal before TFA. I am v. much obliged. Tim riley talk 17:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Now done and am battening down the hatches. Tim riley talk 16:06, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Civil parish

In the infobox we have 'Civil parish – Keswick'. This is sourced to an archived version of the Keswick Town Council's homepage,[1] but 'parish' is not mentioned there, nor on the current homepage.[2] Civil parishes in Cumbria says the civil parish is 'Keswick Urban District'. This has two sources, neither of which is convincing: one covers the situation up to 1974,[3] and the other [4] redirects to an ONS search page.

So we need a better source. I have found two: A Vision of Britian[5] and Lake District National Park.[6] Both indicate that Keswick Civil Parish still exists, but do not confirm that it is co-terminal with or encloses the town. I am unclear on the relationships between types of area and local government bodies. Does 'Keswick Civil Parish' mean the same thing as 'the area administered by Keswick Town Council'? I will change the source to the National Park page, but it would be good to clarify the relationship between the civil parish and the town council. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:17, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Verbcatcher, thank you very much for this. Your tweaks are much appreciated, and I'll do my damnedest to clarify the relationship between the civil parish and the town council – though if you can add anything more, please do. Tim riley talk 18:45, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find anything more on this, alas, and I can only think to leave it as it is unless anyone else finds better info. Tim riley talk 16:04, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Removing England (ongoing reversion)

So how does English make it England? When England is a country and English is a language? All articles should use England but this one seems to have an editor who won't let it be included under a seemingly WP:Own of Keswick. @PamD:, @Crouch, Swale: and @Keith D:. Should England be included as English is not a country? DragonofBatley (talk) 20:39, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And before common sense is used, note that not every one in the world will know what English market town in Cumbria is. Without England its like saying Boston in Lincolnshire. Could be confused with Boston in Massachusetts and vice a versa DragonofBatley (talk) 20:46, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Without the country, where is it. It doesn't say Keswick England. It says Keswick Cumbria. Without the country mentioned it confuses the reader and English is used for the language and not a town other then through historic origins or tourist attractions. DragonofBatley (talk) 20:47, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"English" isn't just a noun for a language, it's also an adjective meaning "in, of or from England". Personally, I have a slight preference for "town in ... England" over "English ... town", but it's not worth arguing over, and "English ... town in ... England" sounds terrible. -- Dr Greg talk 21:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with Dr Greg. "An English town in England" is silly. I think the version that was agreed at FAC is sensible. Tim riley talk 21:15, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"England" I thought was standard, indeed "English" is more ambiguous, such as with the language (or people) though "in the English county of Cumbria" seems to also be acceptable. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:20, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and just clocked the snide mention of WP:OWN, above − not very civil and miles away from WP:AGF. Tim riley talk 21:21, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, I saw that too and thought it inappropriate. :( DBaK (talk) 07:23, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I've been pinged: "English ... town" implies "town in England". We expect our readers to have some understanding of the English language. This wording was accepted by the demanding assesessors for Featured Article status, so it's best to leave it alone. We do not need every location article to start with a detailed mechanical listing of its entire hierarchy of past and present local government areas, if the lead can be written in a more readable and informative style to summarise the detailed content given in article body. PamD 22:49, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I am having genuine trouble seeing what the issue is here. An English town is a town in England. The bit about When England is a country and English is a language? is not helping me at all ... yes but no but ... English here surely is simply an adjective for things that are in or of England. You can call me, without inaccuracy, an English person ... you don't need to specify which country I live in or who issued my passport. With the best will in the world, I don't get it. Regards to all DBaK (talk) 07:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
”English town … in England is awful. Readers only need to be told the country once and the status quo version works well. 2A00:23C7:2B86:9800:8C6B:9C93:C7E0:86B7 (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

St John's Church

Yes ok, this is a Featured Article. I think perhaps parish church could be linked? The image caption looks somewhat mundane. Surely the designer Anthony Salvin is more notable than the date? I clicked on the ref link, to try and discover what "castle-head ashlar sandstone" is (still none the wiser), but all of that paragraph, apart from the details about the East Window, seems to be unsourced? Thanks. 86.184.129.86 (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]